Developing and Maintaining Discipline as part of the normal routine...

[jimmydeanno]

I was browsing through YouTube today and came across this video (It's 13 minutes long)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHzTUYAOkPM

and it got me thinking - what is the typical environment in squadrons and what do we do to develop those environments.

I have been to many squadrons and have definitely noticed changes in "culture" throughout them.  You go into some and the cadets slam themselves against the wall to the point where you can see the slight indent while screaming for everyone to hit the wall.  Then there are the others that go to the opposite extreme where you walk by a C/Lt Col and he says, "Yo, what's up?"

I've found that my squadron is about right smack dab in the middle.  The cadets are courteous - they hold doors for each other and the seniors, they say "sir and ma'am" as though it were a normal part of their vocabulary, but we don't have cadets hitting walls, etc.  The cadets are not afraid to speak to the seniors, but they understand "their role" in the squadron.  When approached or when we are approached they are open and forthcoming and are able to express themselves in a respectful and courteous manner without it being excessive.  "Sir, this cadet believes that this program is an excellent opportunity.  This cadet would not be where he is today if this cadet had not joined the CAP, SIR!" doesn't happen (Thank God!)

I'm rather curious where some squadrons get these ideas and what they do to implement them.  For instance, learning to "hit the wall," where does that come from?  Did some senior somewhere say, "Meh, it's not enough that I get a verbal greeting as they pass, I want them to really move out of the way." Or, do you think that a lot of these "traditions" are cadet initiated in an attempt to be "more disciplined" or "hardcore" than the next cadet.

The video I posted made me think of this because of the opposite extremes that the instructor took.  The beginning reminded me of the "hitting the wall" squadrons and the end reminded me of the "Yo, sup" squadrons.

What do you guys/gals have as an environment in your squadrons?  What type of environment are your cadets expected to maintain?  Do you think they really have an understanding of "Customs and Courtesies" as well as what is supposed to be expected of them?

Are there certain "discipline" classes or routines that your squadrons do?  How does it incorporate in the entire understanding of what "discipline" is?  I've seen squadrons that expect their cadets to stand at attention in front of their chairs with the whole "Seats" command, but nothing else is all that formal.  What does that teach? 

I don't know where I'm going with this, maybe I just wanted you to watch the video, but maybe talking about some of this will generate a discussion. ...meh

[SDF_Specialist]

In my unit, cadets don't hit the wall. The will greet each other and officers alike. To have them hit the wall is assinine. There is a very relaxed feeling in my unit to where you feel comfortable coming in, and not having to worry about Gunnery Sargeant Hartman walking nito the room, and choking you. Some units I've seen are run by prior military guys who haven't gotten back into the civilian frame of mind, so I can see where the cadets hitting the wall would come in. Of course, this isn't always the case.

[dwb]

It depends on the tone set by people with the word "commander" in their job title.

I think hitting the wall is stupid.  When cadets hit the wall at encampment, I would correct them and tell them to stop.  Most got it, some didn't.

To me, part of being a cadet is learning things you will use in your adult life.  Opening doors, verbal greetings, being courteous, paying attention when the Dude in Charge is speaking, etc... those are all things that will serve cadets well anywhere, not just CAP.

On the other hand, no one in my office hits the wall when the CEO walks by.

CAP also has core value of Respect, and I think it's important to check the "culture" of the unit against the core values the organization is trying to teach.  Screaming "sir, this cadet has no excuse, SIR!" isn't really showing respect, and in fact, it's probably showing disrespect to the poor cadet down the hall trying to concentrate on his achievement test over all that noise.

So that's where I think the culture should be grounded:

- What are our core values?
- How can we create a culture that mirrors what cadets will see in the everyday workings of adult business/military environments?

Ovbiously, there is great disparity in corporate cultures, but at least it's a starting point.

[Avery]

I'm in a Senior squadron, fairly new to CAP, but let me pass on something from my navy experience. In the officer corps we have an expression: "Don't trip over your sword." It means don't get too impressed with yourself. I wonder what the equivalent AF expression would be? Seems it would apply here.

[jimmydeanno]

^That's a great expression

I guess I wonder why/how some seniors either teach their cadets that these extremes are "normal" or how things are "supposed to be done." or allow it to continue after seeing it.

Has anyone run into these situations and tried to "rectify" it?  Any obstacles?  What approach have you taken? 

Now, there is the ecampment scenario mentioned above where it could be a brief "don't do that again," but when trying to effectively change the culture/environment in your squadron's cadet corps & CP staff, where do/have you started?

I understand that squadrons have thier own traditions and routines, but sometimes they are too extreme.  I'm not really sure which one irritates me more, the too extreme or the too lax...

[jeders]

In my last squadron, when I was C/CC I had a new cadet move in from another unit. After a while he became the C/First Sgt and at a staff meeting proposed making cadets hit the wall anytime a staff cadet or senior member walked by. He did this because he wanted us to be more hardcore. The DCC and myself agreed that while this may be acceptable in some training environments, in general it was pointless, so we nixed the idea.

From this, my guess is that it comes mostly from cadets that want to be hardcore, although there are certainly some seniors that think the same way.

[kpetersen]

I think the main obstacle to discipline is getting the entire top into the idea. I've had the issue where the C/DC (or other higher person) talks to a cadet for not saluting him, but then the C/DC fails to salute all seniors.  At one of my old squadrons, we had a hard enough time trying to get cadets to pay attention in classes.  If it's going to be something changed, then it needs to be done from the entire top, and everyone needs to be corrected on it, not just the basics.

One of the other things I've commonly seen is seniors failing to salute each other, particularly with cadets around.  I understand the senior (dark) side is different, and that it can be more relaxed, but you have to have the seniors still at least giving a semblance of it when its in front of the cadets.

that's my lincolns.

[mikeylikey]

"Hitting the wall" does not even happen in the military (other than a few weeks of basic training).  I walk down a  crowded hallway and no one moves for me, I push my way through the same as everyone else.  However, when I approach an enlisted person and only one of us can get past the other, he or she will usually let me go out of respect for rank. 

Anyway.........in my SQD when cadets are sent to the classroom for a class they will sit down and come to attention when the instructor enters the room.  They learn nothing for standing at attention waiting.  I have always hated that.  When I visit other SQD's and see that happen, I make it known how STUPID that practice is.

I also hat the phrase "by your leave Sir".  Where the crap did that come from?  These cadets when trying to pass an officer in the hallway will stop, stand at attention, and ask the Officer "by your leave" and the officer will just wave them past.  I hate that so much!  That was around when I was a cadet, hated it then, and hate it even more now. 

I also hate mass inspections that take 20 minutes where all the cadets are standing at attention.  There is no reason for the only cadet to be standing at attention to be the cadet being inspected.  Everyone else should be at rest or at ease. 

I can go on......but my fingers are getting tired!   

[Ned]

This is an area of particular interest to me:

Defining and setting the "military discipline level" at a given activity.

Part of the problem is that neither the US military nor CAP have the concepts and/or vocabulary to describe the continuum of military-style discipline.

Think of it as a 10-point scale ranging from Girl Scout Llama Camp (0) to a peak moment at USMC basic when you are standing by your rack at attention at 0300 with Gunny Hartman spitting and screaming in your ear. (10)

I wrote an article on this -- at least in the encampment context -- for Cadet Stuff.

Click here.

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[mikeylikey]

^  You don't have to scream to maintain discipline!  True discipline comes from within the individual.  He or she decides what to do and what not to do.  I won't get into the philosophy of the subject, but I think we are getting discipline and controll of others confused here.

[Eclipse]

when cadets are sent to the classroom for a class they will sit down and come to attention when the instructor enters the room.  They learn nothing for standing at attention waiting.  I have always hated that.  When I visit other SQD's and see that happen, I make it known how STUPID that practice is.

There shouldn't be "levels" of discipline and courtesies- it should be consistent, and if it >was< consistent, we wouldn't need these discussions.

Mikey- that's awesome that you feel so strongly about something that you think its ok to "correct" a practice everywhere but your home unit.

Leadership regarding discipline is simple.  "Do as I do", not "do as I say".

Salute when appropriate and safe.  Use Sir or Ma'am as a matter of course, instead of sounding like you are choking down mashed potatoes. Its not going to kill anyone to come to attention when an instructor, superior officer, or Commander enters the room.

Never treat anyone with less than the respect you would expect in the same situation, be it by grade, position, or relative experience.

Your personal opinion regarding a particular practice, or personality, especially outside an area you have authority or influence over, should be kept to yourself.

When it says "Commander" on your business card, make whatever changes you see fit.

[mikeylikey]

Eclipse......I don't correct anything anywhere, I just make it known that I believe what the other people are doing is stupid.  As far as voicing my opinions in "areas I have no authority in" is in itself ridiculous.  I can voice my opinions as can everyone else where and when they please.  Now, voicing ones opinions of course carries the risk of you either sounding like a fool, sounding very smart or making yourself look like an ass.  I don't force anyone to do anything, commanders make decisions, but until there is a regulation saying "all opinions must not be conveyed" I will continue speaking out.

Are you so "high and powerfull" that you will strike down the first "outsider" that tells you what you may be doing is stupid, unsafe, un-necessary or just plain lame?

The "Do as I do" is not allways the best practice regarding discipline.

[Eclipse]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Whether it is appropriate, or professional, to express that opinion, especially in an organization such as CAP, is open to debate.

And yes, if you walk into an activity I have authority over and start calling my practices "stupid" you will invited to leave.

There is a time and process for dissension in an organization like CAP, calling a practice "stupid" isn't it.
(boards a little laggy tonight)

[Ned]

^  You don't have to scream to maintain discipline!  True discipline comes from within the individual.  He or she decides what to do and what not to do.  I won't get into the philosophy of the subject, but I think we are getting discipline and controll of others confused here.

There is no one "sure-fire" way to help others develop self discipline.  Including "screaming."

But pretty much every military-based organization in the world occasionally uses loud voices to help their trainees focus and progress.

And of course "true discipline comes from within the individual."

At some point.

But until sufficient discipline comes from within, most students (military or not) get a little help with externally-imposed discipline.  Otherwise we would never need parents, teachers, or professional drill instructors.

And your confusion about differentiating "discipline" and "control of others" is a pretty good example of the problem I mentioned.  What some folks call "stress", others call "exteranally-imposed discipline."  Or "military discipline."

Even academia has trouble settling on a common set of terms to describe what we are talking about.

And until we can agree on what we are talking about, it will be extremely difficult for CAP to develop our "toolbox" to help us teach leadership in a military context.  IOW, if can't describe what a squadron meeting or encampment should look or feel like in terms of miltary discipline levels, it will be nearly impossible for us to prescribe how it "should be" and the best methods to get there.

And it's a real problem.  We commonly hear about units and/or activities that are "too strict" or "too lax", but we can't begin to agree what those terms mean, let alone address the problems.

But we need to try.

Ned Lee

[ZigZag911]

WIWAC I learned the hard way about screaming....all it  really accomplished was hurting my throat!

Changed my ways even back then....

The whole point to discipline in CAP is to instill unit cohesion, a sense of teamwork, an environment of mutual respect.

The ultimate goals are self-discipline, based on self-respect.

"Hitting the wall", I believe, was a naval custom....in cramped quarters aboard ship (particularly submarines) the junior made way for the senior -- both a sign of respect, and an indication that whatever The Captain was doing was probably more important than what  Seaman Apprentice Snipe was engaged in! Not necessarily, pf course....the skipper could have been on the way to chow, while the EM was going to adjust some critical piece of gear!)

Rarely in CAP do we encounter such tight spaces....I honestly think it is something that got adopted in military schools, and somehow made it's way (probably thru the movies!) into CAP.

The other extreme is equally unsatisfactory. While group CC I was visiting a squadron, and chanced to hear  cadet officers addressing the DCC by his first name, in private.

After they left, when I raised the matter with him, he could not comprehend why I was concerned.

A relaxed atmosphere in which all feel part of the team is highly desirable....but I don't think you achieve that by doing the "Gunny Hartman" routine (much as I love Mail Call!), nor by being the cadets' 'buddy'....that's not leadership!

[flyguy06]

There is no typical environment for cadets. Thats what makes the cadet program unique to the location of the unit. Every where will be different and it should be. The challenges of Hawaii Wing are not the same as the New York Wing. I work in an inner city squadron, so the cadets I have will be diffeent from a suburban area unit.

So it all depends on the cadet base on how you run your program. I do not have cadets hitting the wall. But I do make it  a point to make sure they are curteous and respectful to Senior members. I have no cadet officers in my unit so they really dont have interaction with senior rankng cadets yet.


Discipline has never really been an issue with my cadets because of their parents. But I do emphasize military disicpline which a lot of them are not used to. So I think it all depends on where you are located. Your demographics in your unit

[jimmydeanno]

The "normalization" or definition of "normal" in regards to discipline or C&C should be at least attempted.

I completely understand the need to vary training or interaction based on needs of the squadron, however, many of the extremes that some squadrons go to only confuses/provides a dis-service to members.

For example:  Cadet MSgt Bob Shead comes from a squadron in which they don't bother with those silly titles or saluting, he's a member of the "Children are our future" squadron.  He realizes that he needs to go to summer camp so he won't have to pin on his insignia anymore, whatever they stand for.

Cadet Shead fills out his camp application and packs his bathing suit and sun tan lotion.  Upon arrival to summer camp, he greets this really loud counselor, aka "The First Sergeant," who comes from the 222nd Special Forces Ranger Cadet Squadron, with a giggle and a "I'm standing right here ya' know..."

The First Sergeant immediately makes it his mission to instill some "discipline" into this cadet during his Boot Camp.

Now, the week is rolling along and our esteemed First Sergeant, in an effort to make all the cadets like those from his squadron has them doing 500 pushups every morning, followed by 500 sit-ups, running the mile by flight with a 300 pound log above their head while singing cadences.

Well, this isn't what Cadet Shead had thought his days were going to be like, so he decides he's going to leave encampment.

The first sergeant is happy because that cadet couldn't hack it anyway and would never make it as an Army Ranger.

Ok, so maybe that's an exaggeration, but maybe not.  There is such a variance as to what the cadet program "is" across our organization that the cultures vary greatly.  The reason someone joins or doesn't sometimes greatly depends on the atmosphere presented at a particular squadron.  So Cadet Shead moves and there is only "Special Forces" squadrons where he moves and quits the program.  The first sergeant moves and there is only "Children are our future" squadron and quits.

Or...one of those cadets joins a squadron like the others and tries to affect change, but is held back now because they "don't get it."

[flyguy06]

Nobody can do 500 push ups in a mornng at one setting so your example is very extreme. But as to what you said, you sound like you are saying we should try to make each cadet happy so they wil stay. Bottom lne is CAP is not for everybody. You are going to have young people join, find out its not what they thouight and leave. It happens in every organization out there. You cant please every one all the time. We just have to accept that we will lose some cadets. Its nobody's fault, its the nature of the program.

Also, there are standards found in CAPM 52-16. It discusses C&C, How cadets  interact with each other. Its spelled out so there should be no excuse for a junior cadet not rendering proper curteousies to senior ranking a

[jimmydeanno]

author=flyguy06 link=topic=3095.msg58383#msg58383 date=1190335632]
Nobody can do 500 push ups in a mornng at one setting so your example is very extreme.

I know my example was extreme, all the characters were.

But as to what you said, you sound like you are saying we should try to make each cadet happy so they wil stay. Bottom lne is CAP is not for everybody. You are going to have young people join, find out its not what they thouight and leave.

No, that's not what I was trying to say.  My point was that CAP is something different everywhere and people often times join under false pretenses of what the organization "is."  My examples are actually fairly common.

The "Children are our future" squadron often times comes about when "mommy types" join a squadron and their sole purpose is to make the organization only about having fun, anyway possible.  Since they have no experience or desire to run a program that instills some "military style" discipline or routine so their cadets experiences end up being not what the program is really about.  The get a rude awakening when they go to outside activities in which there is a higher level of military style discipline present - such as encampment.

The "222nd Special Forces Ranger Cadet Squadron" is also another "real" type of squadron.  The cadets and leadership of the squadron view the cadet programs purpose to "prepare youth for the military."  So, they essentially create a mini Paris Island during their squadron meetings.  They are frequently run by over zealous people who know what the military is all about because they watched full metal jacket and had an uncle who was a Marine when they were growing up.  Either that or they were military washouts of some sort who are trying to prove something.

Both of the situation happen, sometimes to those extremes, which gets people to join under those false pretenses.  The first cadet doesn't expect to have to act in a certain manner and the second is expecting that first cadet to act in a certain manner.  Both get irritated with each other and the other squadron's environment.

It happens in every organization out there. You cant please every one all the time. We just have to accept that we will lose some cadets. Its nobody's fault, its the nature of the program.

You tend to lose fewer people when the program isn't grossly distorted into something its not.  You also tend to get more people to join if the extremes aren't used.  Parents get leary of the "special forces" squadron and cadets get bored in the "children are our future" squadron.

Also, there are standards found in CAPM 52-16. It discusses C&C, How cadets  interact with each other. Its spelled out so there should be no excuse for a junior cadet not rendering proper curteousies to senior ranking officer

CAPR 52-16 doesn't discuss C&C it simply states in the leadership expectations "practice customs and courtesies."  52-16 lays out the requirements of the cadet program but it's purpose isn't to explain the environment of the CAP cadet program.  So while it says "practice C&C" it doesn't give an idea of what "normal" is.  People who have experience with the military and have actually lived it or cadets/former cadet who came from those squadrons are going to have a better handle on what "normal" is.

The concern isn't about the cadets not performing customs and courtesies, but how the different interpretations affect the overall culture of the program.

[Snake Doctor]

Think of it as a 10-point scale ranging from Girl Scout Llama Camp (0) to a peak moment at USMC basic when you are standing by your rack at attention at 0300 with Gunny Hartman spitting and screaming in your ear. (10)

I believe the most important thing is to be consistant. I'm most comfortable using the above scale operating at a 6 or 7.  Set the standard and stick to it.  Members will rise up to or sink to the standard.   

I also hate the "By your leave" and hitting the wall is, for lack of a better word, stupid.

[Eclipse]

Its also interesting that many people believe "discipline" = "military C&C".

Discipline is your general demeanor, attention to detail, and the seriousness with which you accept responsibilities and tasks in Cap.

C&C is a part of that, but really the smallest - more a symptomatic indicator of attitude.

In most cases commanders will not make an issue of the occasional slip or miscue from members who are otherwise fully engaged and are considered assets to the program, whereas minor C&C mistakes
become further irritants from members who think they can walk on water without doing any of the homework.

[flyguy06]

I agree with hhe above. Many people believe its either "have fun" of "be military". Well, being military can be fun.

You are right though in that many squadrons interpret things differently. I think you find that in many corporations including the military as well. If I work for Coca Cola. The office in Atlanta will no doubt be run differently thanthe office in Las Vegas.

[ZigZag911]

Atlanta Coca Cola & their Las Vegas office will not, in fact, be identical...however, they will have close similarities within certain parameters.

CAP has a sort of localized schizophrenia.....while local squadrons need not be identical, they ought to fall within common bounds...the problem is, what hose limits are has not been clearly defined at the top!

[SAR-EMT1]

I look at the TV show MASH as a perfect example of what we should be.    - I kidd-

[Walkman]

A little late to the party, but...

In my SQDN, the cadets show a fairly good balance on the "hitting the wall" thing. What's more interesting to me is the difference in the cadets themselves. The two cadets with the most time & grade in are more soft spoken. They aren't lax in the "s'up" way. But they command respect without yelling. We have two newer element leaders who are very loud. It seems that they are really going for the DI feel. The others are on a sliding scale. The longer they've been in CAP, the less Gunny Hartman they are.

Our CC is AD USAF. He sets the tone well with C&C I think. Balanced.

[Flying Pig]

I was a cadet "advisor" to a Sq that had just formed.  I was the Cadet Commander at my Sq and was asked to come a couple nights a month to assist the new cadet staff.  I was a C/2Lt and the staff at the newly formed unit were C/SSgt and below with very new Senior parents who really seemed to "enjoy" this type of meeting.

All of the cadet staff had just returned from basic encampement and you could definitely tell from the meeting nights.  Everyone walking around yelling, cadets "bracing" themselves as it was called then (hitting the wall).  Cadets screaming "By your leave Sir" in my ear everytime the walked past me.  Every class cadets with questions had to raise their hand and yell "Sir permission to speak."  Siiiigh....It was very tiring.

Then my unit, very quiet, sure you had the motivated 1st Sgt every now and then, cadets holding doors for seniors and cadet staff, polite to other parents who were not members.   You had a question, raise your hand and wait to be called on.  Both units were disciplined cadets, but having been part of both, Id have to say the cadets in my unit got a much more well rounded approach to discipline that could take them outside of the military, but one that would be perfectly adaptable in the military as well.  If you take the younger Sq's method.  Thats only applicable in that CAP unit.  The military doesn't do any of that.  8 years in the infanty I was never required to, nor did I ever see anyone yelling "By your leave" or "hitting the wall." 

Sure, encampment can have those types of things, rite of passage, extreme types of things make it fun.  But at the Sq level, it gets old real quick.  Marine boot camp is that same way.  You always refer to yourself in the 3rd person.  "Sir, recruit Steht requests permission to speak."  ...."Sir Recruit Steht needs to fill his canteen."  But the day you graduate its over.  If the military tried to operate like that it wouldnt ever get anything done.  Same way with CAP.  it seems to make the meeting nights a mess of people yelling and more worried about saying the right thing than just being courteous and enjoying the night.

[flyguy06]

Hitting the wal is rediculous and they dont even do it in the military. Even military Academies have stopped the procatice. Now when I went to military college we did do that. But this is a different time.

With that said, I think some strict dicsipline measures should be in place. And I think cadets need to understand their place in CAP.

A few years ago, I ws a TAC officer at a Region Encampment. I was a Senior Member 1st Lt. The Cadet Commander was under the impression that she was "my" superior. She would attempt to give me orders and tell me what to do with the Flight in my chrge. When I would suggect something, she told me she wasnt going to do it. Thats when the "military" in me came out and we had a heart to heart. She got mad with me and told the Encampment Commander that I hollard at her. I told him, that I am an adult here on my own time . I am here to train cadets not have cadets trainme.

A lot of cadets, especially Senior cadets have this idea that they ar ein charge. My feeling is they are "cadets". The definition of a cadet is a person in training to be an officer. they are in training. And I am one of the trainers. Its not about feeling myself or thinking I am better than they are.Its about my experinces and trying to impart that upon the cadets.

Do I think caets should "hit the wall" and screa m at the top of their lungs? No i do not, but I also believe they need challenging training and situations to prepaer them to be pilots,future military or civilain leaders. Lets face it, most youths join CAP because they want some affiliation withthe military and they have an intetnion of going into the service someday. So, why not cater to that desire and get them ready for that. I am NOT for running CAP like a quasi Boy Scout organization. thats not what we are. We are a military organization. People come to us because they have an interest inthe military.

[Ned]

I think cadets need to understand their place in CAP.

Absolutely.

They are indeed military students who are supported by some dedicated seniors, including yourself.

But they are no less of a member of CAP than you or me.

They are to be trained, respected, and protected.

Just like you and me.

They have every right and privilege of membership.

Just like you and me.

And they expect to be treated professionally.

Again, just like you or me.

A few years ago, I ws a TAC officer at a Region Encampment. I was a Senior Member 1st Lt. The Cadet Commander was under the impression that she was "my" superior. She would attempt to give me orders and tell me what to do with the Flight in my chrge. When I would suggect something, she told me she wasnt going to do it. Thats when the "military" in me came out and we had a heart to heart. She got mad with me and told the Encampment Commander that I hollard at her. I told him, that I am an adult here on my own time . I am here to train cadets not have cadets trainme.

Interesting.

You - as a Tactical Officer -- are certainly not in her chain of command.  She is definitely not your CAP boss.

But of course, she is not in your chain of command, either.  IOW, you are not her boss. She doesn't work for you anymore than the Dining Facility Manager does.

And if you had "hollard" at her, she should have mentioned that to her bosses, because "hollering" at cadet commanders is not in the job description of Tactical Officers, and could constitute improper hazing, depending on the circumstances.

A lot of cadets, especially Senior cadets have this idea that they ar ein charge. My feeling is they are "cadets". The definition of a cadet is a person in training to be an officer. they are in training. And I am one of the trainers. Its not about feeling myself or thinking I am better than they are.Its about my experinces and trying to impart that upon the cadets.

You certainly are a CP trainer.  And thank you for that, BTW. 

But we are never done learning in CAP.  As seniors in CP we take turns as "trainers" and "trainees" regularly.  None of us knows it all, and we can all learn things from some of our terrific "Senior cadets."

Do I think caets should "hit the wall" and screa m at the top of their lungs? No i do not, but I also believe they need challenging training and situations to prepaer them to be pilots,future military or civilain leaders. Lets face it, most youths join CAP because they want some affiliation withthe military and they have an intetnion of going into the service someday. So, why not cater to that desire and get them ready for that. I am NOT for running CAP like a quasi Boy Scout organization. thats not what we are. We are a military organization. People come to us because they have an interest inthe military.

Again, thank you for your service.

[flyguy06]

Yes, I agree they are members of Civil Air Patroljust like me, but they have a different role to play then I do.

Your assumption sounds like just because I out rank them, I somehow do not respect them. Thats not true. Just because you are tough on someone or exert your authority or even yell at somebody doesnt mean you dont respect them. I remember onetime when I was a butter bar Platoon Leader in Bosnia. I screwed something up and my CO yelled and said words to me that would make a nunn blush. After it was over, he asked me to stay and listen to the ballgame with him. He always tld me business is business and should NEVER be personal.

Again, yelling doesnt equate to unprofessionalism. Unprofessionalism is getting personal with a person, and that is wrong. Sometimes when correcting behavior you have to use a tone of voice tolet the person know you are serious. Just like when parents correct their children (at least in my upbringing)


As far as my example. You say the cadet wsnt in my chain of command. But I dont theink tha tmatters. I outrank her. Thats like saying if I am inthe army and a captain from another unit gives me an order, i should tell him he is not in my chain of command. That would not go over very well. As a senior member I am responsible for ALL cadets, not just the ones I am assigned to . I am responsible for their safety, their training, and their development. So, in your philosiphy, If I am a TAC officer of a flight, and I see a cadet from another flight about to do something toharm himself. I should go and find his TAC officer to correct him. That deosnt sound right to me. Its not about chain of comand, its about authority. Allcadets work for all seniors. This is not a business. This is training. cadet training.

the problem is some (not all )  senior member do not know how or desire to train and lead by example. I know how to D&C. I know how to call cadence. I know how to conduct PT and I do it. In my home squadron, I have 8 cadets all of whom are cadet basics. So, I have to be the cadet commander. I have to form them up and march them until they get to the level to do it themselves. I am a very invloved Senior member.I am not going to take a week off of my pying job to go and babysit cadets and make sure they dont hurt themselves. If I am going to sacrafice my job and vacation days, I want to be invloved. Thats why I do it. To develop future leaders.

Is this a wrong attitude to have  in CAP?

[Ned]

Yes, I agree they are members of Civil Air Patroljust like me, but they have a different role to play then I do.

Your assumption sounds like just because I out rank them, I somehow do not respect them.

Not quite.

I assumed (based on your description of the incident) that "hollering" at the most senior cadet officer at a region encampment over differences in leadership styles might be disrespectful and possibly even hazing.

I also assumed (based on your statement "I am here to train cadets; not have cadets train me") that you were not open to even the possibility that a Spaatz cadet with 8 or more years in the program could ever know something you do not already know as a CAP 1st lieutenant.

Was I wrong?

As far as my example. You say the cadet wsnt in my chain of command. But I dont theink tha tmatters.

So, LT, when does the chain of command matter?

Why would we have such a restrictive concept if the only thing that matters is:

I outrank her.

But I must confess I find this statement somewhat worrisome:

Its not about chain of comand, its about authority.

And

Allcadets work for all seniors. This is not a business.

Are you at least open to the notion that cadets -- at least cadet leaders -- are our colleagues in the business of training cadets?

Wouldn't that be a respectful way to treat a young adult?

Is this a wrong attitude to have  in CAP?

You tell me.


Sir, I genuinely appreciate your contributions to training cadets, both at the squadron and at encampments.  You are indeed making a contribution to the future of America.

But I would ask you to give some thought to what an effective cadet/senior working relationship should be, and in particular when it involves cadet officers.

In my humble opinion, it has less to do with authority, rank, and "hollering" than it does with quiet and professional mentoring, coaching, and training.

I agree that sometimes a raised voice may be necessary to help a cadet focus on what is important.  But that is only one tool in the "leadership tool box"; and one that should be used rarely.




Ned Lee
DCP, PCR
#356

[flyguy06]

Sir, I appreciate your comments. I understand wher eyou are comming from. Please believe I am not an abuser of cadets. i do not haze cadets. My only desire is to make them into strong leaders. In order to do that I have to lay down strict rules.. People are hesitant to be strict because it may be precieved as hazing. I think part of beng a leader is knowing how far to take something and that will depend on the person you are instructing.

You may be right though CAP may have gotten too soft for me. It may not be for me anymore. I have to evaluate that each week.

Quote removed - MIKE

[flyguy06]

Please do not think that I do not respect cadets. I have theutmost respect for cadets. If I didnt care about cadets, i wouldnt take time out of my busy schedule to work with them. I ama young Senior Member. I have a full life outside of CAP. i am a National Guard officer. I am an aspiring airline pilot, and I am a starving CFI. i have a girlfirned. I am active in my colleg eFraternity. So,  iam a busy person. I dont work with cadets to get my glories. Ihave better things to do with my time than holler at teenagers. i work with cadets because I know what it di dfor me and I want to pass my experience on to somebody else.

[SGT Dusty]

Being an officer, I would certainly hope that at some point in your career, your superiors pointed out the value of spell check...

[flyguy06]

I spell very well. But since I am NOTbeing graded hre and you KNOW what I am trying to say, it doesnt matter to me. But thanks for pointing it out. Be Blessed

[mikeylikey]

I spell very well. But since I am NOTbeing graded hre and you KNOW what I am trying to say, it doesnt matter to me. But thanks for pointing it out. Be Blessed

Wow....National Guard standards seem to be slipping these days.  As a fellow Officer, I would like to say, take a second to push the spell check button.  What kind of example are you setting to future Officers.  I forget to push it sometimes myself.  I can understand that, but saying you don't need to when there are so many spelling Nazis running through the forum here......come on! 

Anyway......sounds like you have a very busy life.  National Guard Officer and in a Frat......must be awesome.  I had to give my fraternity days up after commissioning.  So tell me (if you want), did you do OCS, ECP, Direct Commission?