Need clarification on what counts as volunteer hours

Started by xray328, June 04, 2016, 01:50:31 PM

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xray328

Hey guys.  I need some clarification on what counts as volunteer hours for the cadets.  For instance, if they work in support of an airshow with crowd control etc does that count? How about coming to a boy scout pack night and teaching aerospace education? Or attending a STEM night at a local middle school?  What about helping out at an EAA pancake breakfast?  When does it go from supporting the squadron to volunteering?  Are volunteer hours the same as community service hours?

We don't want our kids just volunteering to meet a requirement, but hope they find something they are passionate about that allows them to also benefit others.  But of course honor societies etc are going to be asking about volunteering so I just want to make sure we understand what qualifies and what doesn't.

Thanks in advance.

DakRadz

#1
I'll use this double post to ask why the differentiation. If you are asking for the purposes of the Community Service Ribbon, then my below post applies. If you just want volunteer hours for something else, why? Just to help clarify your question.

Double post. My apologies! See below

DakRadz

From 39-3 page 13

Quote from: CAPR 39-3Section 21

i. Community Service Ribbon. Awarded to members who complete 60 hours of
community service outside of Civil Air Patrol. The service must be verified by a volunteer
coordinator. Community service projects conducted by CAP units do not qualify for this recognition.
A bronze clasp may be added for each additional 60 hours of community service.

Emphasis mine.

Personally, my commanders usually held this to mean nothing done in a CAP sponsored way, nor anything I did in a CAP uniform.

xray328

In our case specifically, for National Honor Society.  Again, though my hope is that they learn that volunteering is about what that does for their character and about how it helps others - not just about fulfilling a requirement.  But that being said NHS is asking about volunteering so I want to make sure the volunteering they are doing qualifies. 

Eclipse

#4
As noted, CAP activities don't count, beyond that it's whatever the CC decides does, though it's a good idea to make the
parameters clear to everyone.

We've had some issues recently where activities that are clearly "CAP Activities" with capital letters, are being sold to
members, especially cadets as "you will also receive 'x' community service hours - the ubiquitous airshows being a good example.
That's a check those activity POCs can't generally cash, except for people within their own AORs if they are CCs.

The same goes for missions - seen that tried as well.

For me, personally, I don't like "double-dipping", which includes for my own kids - the local school districts require
"x" many hours for each school session, and they need them for Boy Scouts, church, etc.   There are kids in town who
will stand in the soup line once and walk around waiving that sign-off sheet every place they need it the whole year,
which to me defeats the purpose and intention, but that's a call by the approver.

I realized recently that with all the BSA support I provide for my kid's troop, I could probably qualify for a for a CSR with a couple
devices...then I realized I didn't need another dec, and it would set a poor example regarding double dipping for myself.

Now, if another organizations, like NHS, will accept CAP time as community service hours, that's on them.


"That Others May Zoom"

xray328

Looks like they better reach outside the squadron then, thanks. 


xray328

Any suggestions on how we, as a group, can do things that would qualify?   How can we organize a volunteering opportunity that would help them get volunteer hours?  It seems like the fact that we're organizing it would automatically disqualify it.  With volunteer service being a core value I want to make sure the cadets are not only meeting that expectation but also getting recognized for their efforts.  If we keep telling them "yeah that doesn't count" they might get discouraged.

DakRadz

Red Cross (blood drives, etc.), hospitals, museums.

Eclipse

"Feed My Starving Children" is an eas / fun way to kill an hour or two at a clip, if you have one nearby.

Providing information or contacts isn't the same as organizing.

"That Others May Zoom"

xray328

Thanks guys.  My son's attending HOBY in a couple weeks.  One of the take aways is that they want them to take on a 100 hour community service project during the next year so that should also help.

xray328

I think I understand the requirement (finally).  So we just can't be the ones that organize the activity.  But we can, as a group, organize our cadets to attend an activity that's been put together by an outside organization?  So if I got a group of cadets together and drive them to Feed our Starving Children that qualifies.  But collecting food on our own and donating to a homeless shelter wouldn't.

Eclipse

If they go, out of uniform, and with no sanction from CAP as an official "activity", then from my perspective I would say yes.

"That Others May Zoom"

xray328

#12
Does the rule go that far?  "Out of uniform with no sanction as an official CAP activity"?

"The Community Service Ribbon is intended to recognize cadets and seniors for community service outside of CAP activities. Such service might be in a tutoring program, food bank, special Olympics, highway clean-up, etc. It would not include CAP organized activities such as airshows, aerospace education, search and rescue or any of the other typical activities CAP volunteers are routinely involved with in their community as CAP members. The idea of the ribbon is to encourage and recognize members who volunteer in their communities beyond their CAP activities."

"For example, a CAP search and rescue mission for a missing person is certainly a service to the community but the hours would not be credited for the community service ribbon because this is a typical CAP mission and activity. CAP cadets volunteering as a group to be tutors to underprivileged children or to work at a food bank would qualify as community service hours for all the individuals who participate."

It sounds like they just can't count activities that are a part of normal CAP duties. Volunteering at a food bank certainly wouldn't be considered "normal CAP duties".  It also mentions that "CAP cadets volunteering as a group", I don't know how they would do that without us organizing it. 


"The type of activities you reference (Earth Day, house cleaning, etc) qualify as community service either by individuals or a group of cadets as long as the activity is not organized and run by the CAP unit. These projects typically have some type of sponsor who should be able to verify participation by cadets. The sponsor is not expected to monitor activities but should be able to certify participation. You might send a list of names of cadets who participated to the sponsor and request a verifying letter so cadets may be credited for this community service. For example, the local department of transportation should be glad to recognize participation by cadets in highway clean up."

So by "organized and run" we just can't count things we've come up with on our own.  But if we organize a group of cadets to go do an activity run by another organization we'd be ok.

What I picture is "Hey we need to get our cadets out in the community to volunteer more. How about we take a trip out to Feed our Starving Children so the cadets can volunteer for a few hours packing up food for those less fortunate and the cadets wear our squadron t-shirt."  So we've organized the trip to Feed our Starving Children but we aren't the ones that organized the actual activity, the folks at Feed our Starving children are the organizers.

Or...

We do a highway clean up effort.  We're planning it but...

A.  Its outside of our normal CAP duties
B.  The Department of Transportation would be the sponsor

Does us wearing our squadron shirt disqualify us somehow?  I wouldn't think so.

And yes, it would be a "CAP Activity" but not a part of our "Normal CAP Duties"


Eclipse

Quote from: xray328 on June 04, 2016, 04:43:12 PM
Does the rule go that far? 

Yes. I believe it does.

Quote from: xray328 on June 04, 2016, 04:43:12 PM
We do a highway clean up effort.  We're planning it but...

A.  Its outside of our normal CAP duties
B.  The Department of Transportation would be the sponsor

Does us wearing our squadron shirt disqualify us somehow?  I wouldn't think so.

And yes, it would be a "CAP Activity" but not a part of our "Normal CAP Duties"

The word "normal" does not appear in the reg, and based on the quoted verbiage, a highway cleanup would literally not qualify.

Quote from: DakRadz on June 04, 2016, 02:01:56 PM
From 39-3 page 13

Quote from: CAPR 39-3Section 21

i. Community Service Ribbon. Awarded to members who complete 60 hours of
community service outside of Civil Air Patrol. The service must be verified by a volunteer
coordinator. Community service projects conducted by CAP units do not qualify for this recognition.
A bronze clasp may be added for each additional 60 hours of community service.

It's either a CAP activity or it isn't.  Other wings may vary, but in our wing, there's no way you're going to
be allowed to clean a highway without Wing sanction, full ORM, the works, and that's clearly a "CAP Activity".

"That Others May Zoom"

xray328

#14
"The Community Service Ribbon is intended to recognize cadets and seniors for community service outside of CAP activities. Such service might be in a tutoring program, food bank, special Olympics, highway clean-up, etc"

"For example, the local department of transportation should be glad to recognize participation by cadets in highway clean up."

Not looking to argue with you sir, it just seems over complicated.  Any thoughts on why they're so stringent?

If cadets are volunteering and serving the community why does it matter if we, as a squadron, organized the effort?  How else are we going to encourage 12 year olds to volunteer if we're not supporting them? 

And my apologies, the word "normal" is not used, but "typical" is.

Or is this more about CAP being covered on the liability side?  (Full ORM etc).

xray328

#15
For instance:

http://www.mdcap.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=article.display&articleID=114


We might of gotten sidetracked here.  This was never about getting the community service ribbon..  The original question was can this be designated as volunteer hours as recognized by outside agencies.

lordmonar

Quote from: xray328 on June 04, 2016, 05:26:08 PM
For instance:

http://www.mdcap.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=article.display&articleID=114


We might of gotten sidetracked here.  This was never about getting the community service ribbon..  The original question was can this be designated as volunteer hours as recognized by outside agencies.
Well....I missed that.

If it is about being recognized by outside agencies......you got to ask those agencies.   It's got nothing to do with CAP.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

xray328


xray328

In the past, squadrons have given "community service hours" for various things. Not that these would count for the community service ribbon but a lot of times kids need proof of just "community service." Maybe that's the difference and part of the confusion.


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MSG Mac

"We've had some issues recently where activities that are clearly "CAP Activities" with capital letters, are being sold to
members, especially cadets as "you will also receive 'x' community service hours - the ubiquitous airshows being a good example.
That's a check those activity POCs can't generally cash, except for people within their own AORs if they are CCs."

In some school districts students are required to complete "Community Service Hours" for graduation. If we have a CAP event, we tell our cadets that while the activity doesn't get credit for the Community service Ribbon, we will sign off on the school forms for their Community Service hours.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

lordmonar

Quote from: xray328 on June 04, 2016, 05:54:43 PM
In the past, squadrons have given "community service hours" for various things. Not that these would count for the community service ribbon but a lot of times kids need proof of just "community service." Maybe that's the difference and part of the confusion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sure.....CAP time.....all of CAP time counts toward the presidential Volunteer service award.    So if school X says that working the trash pick up at the air show counts....then by all means type up the "Johnny did  six hours of volunteer service letter".

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

xray328

Great, thanks for that clarification. 


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xray328

Quote from: lordmonar on June 04, 2016, 06:01:21 PM
Quote from: xray328 on June 04, 2016, 05:54:43 PM
In the past, squadrons have given "community service hours" for various things. Not that these would count for the community service ribbon but a lot of times kids need proof of just "community service." Maybe that's the difference and part of the confusion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sure.....CAP time.....all of CAP time counts toward the presidential Volunteer service award.    So if school X says that working the trash pick up at the air show counts....then by all means type up the "Johnny did  six hours of volunteer service letter".


I see there's a lot of posts regarding the PVS award.  For those that participate, how are you counting the hours? If it's really "all CAP time" are you including meetings in that?  16 hours a day for encampments?  Are you including NCSA or NESA time?

lordmonar

Yes.  All hours spent actually on CAP. 


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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

The PVSA is a huge waste of time - seriously, don't bother.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JeffDG

Quote from: Eclipse on June 04, 2016, 07:14:55 PM
The PVSA is a huge waste of time - seriously, don't bother.
Just have the cadets prepare the paperwork for the Commander's signature, and count the time wasted with doing so as hours!

stitchmom

Quote from: xray328 on June 04, 2016, 05:18:47 PM
How else are we going to encourage 12 year olds to volunteer if we're not supporting them? 


Scout masters are a gem of info as far as organizations that have it "set up" for teens to volunteer.   They may even have something planned in the future you can have your teen show up for.

Check with church youth groups or women's groups if they have a schedule time at the Ronald McDonald house or nursing home.

TheSkyHornet

As an inverse to Shaun's question:

What's the norm for considering CAP service to be volunteer service for external entities?

I've been approached by several cadets asking me if I would sign off their CAP hours as volunteer service time. They factored in the weekly meeting and other weekend activities (very nicely tracked I might add) as "volunteer time." I spoke with my chain of command on this matter, as I had never considered being asked if CAP counts as volunteer time while I had previously often considered what I would constitute as volunteer service toward their Community Service Ribbon in CAP.

So the consensus of the higher-ups was that all CAP time counts as volunteer service hours for outside organizations (youth clubs, school, etc.). I was a bit hesitant on saying PT and the weekly meeting constitutes as volunteer service to the community; but a good point was brought up: this is training so they can continue to participate in CAP and volunteer in the other events we have as a unit, which benefits the community, so it counts. Fair enough. Besides, at the end of the day, if CC says count it, I count it.

But I'm just wondering what the general norm is on the subject.

Eclipse

Cadets, on the whole, are being served.  I'd entertain the idea of specific projects or activities
counting - things with tangible community benefit like the highway cleanup, etc., but regular meetings
and similar activities?  No.

Any more then I'd allow my kids to use their BSA meetings as community service, even if the school would
accept it.  The river cleanup overnight they just did?  Maybe, but just the working hours.

"That Others May Zoom"

Luis R. Ramos

I would never count time served in a CAP activity as volunteer time since that time is already counting for their membership in CAP. Or am I mistaken? Is it not one of CAP requirements for membership active participation? Whatever the unit defines as active participation.

Anything outside of these hours, I count as volunteer time.

A partial list of what I would consider:

Reading at the library to children, or elderly.
Putting books away at the library if not paid.
Helping at the Community Center.
Rebuilding a trail at a national park.
Helping clean a city, county, or national park.
Assisting with English children of non-native English speakers.
Assisting with English non-native English speakers.
Assisting with hospital patients.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Storm Chaser

It really depends. For cadets, I would count any service that contributes to the community, participation in actual missions, or staff work beyond their normal membership and progression in the Cadet Programs. You see, there are things that are expected of a CAP cadet to be a CAP cadet. There are others that go above and beyond and could be counted, depending on the circumstances.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 06, 2016, 04:13:38 PM
It really depends. For cadets, I would count any service that contributes to the community, participation in actual missions, or staff work beyond their normal membership and progression in the Cadet Programs. You see, there are things that are expected of a CAP cadet to be a CAP cadet. There are others that go above and beyond and could be counted, depending on the circumstances.

That's my stance as well. I, personally, don't favor the idea of a cadet being able to say "my time here at the squadron is community service for my school requirement." I think that's a cop-out. I'd like to see more community involvement as opposed to attending a meeting.

I'm finding some parents are trying to use CAP as an hourly count for those cadets trying to get into service academies. That's great and all, but one's meeting attendance doesn't impress me. I already expect that of every member.

Eclipse

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 06, 2016, 04:30:20 PMI'm finding some parents are trying to use CAP as an hourly count for those cadets trying to get into service academies.

wow - I could see that back-firing spectacularly.

"That Others May Zoom"

Chappie

Participating in/support of "Honor Flight" would certainly count.   Assisting at the "Meet and Greets" (serving the meal), the departure and arrival of the Flights ... writing letters for the "Mail Call" ... check out a local hub near you.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Ned

FWIW, about 30 years ago I represented a friend (and fellow CAP member) on a DUI.  I was able to convince the judge to waive the jail and fines provided that my friend volunteered 100 hours to "working with a charitable youth group."

My friend was not scheduled to work encampment that year, but I made sure he went to clock "extra" CAP hours to qualify.

I thought it was a good dispo.



(And yes, he went to the mandated alcohol class, had his license restricted for a time, etc.  Did him a world of good.  He continues to live a sober and productive life today.)


AirAux

My Cadets are helping at the local Church to pack lunches for the school age children that usually get free lunch at school.  they wear a uniform if they want.  Good recruiting and visibility.  Good volunteer times!!

arajca

While not being specific, I will tell any commanders to make sure the are consistent in what they count for this. If helping at a animal shelter counts for one cadet, it should also count for other cadets.

kwe1009

Quote from: arajca on June 08, 2016, 04:08:40 AM
While not being specific, I will tell any commanders to make sure the are consistent in what they count for this. If helping at a animal shelter counts for one cadet, it should also count for other cadets.

^^^^^^  The most important aspect!

Here is the policy that I followed:

1. Activity sponsored by CAP (squadron, group, wing, etc.) - Doesn't count toward Community Service Ribbon
2. Activity not sponsored by CAP - Counts toward Community Service Ribbon

As far as "double dipping," I'm really not that overly concerned about it.  If a cadet wants to count his volunteer hours for the Community Service Ribbon and then submit the same hours for the President's Award or anything else I really don't see a problem with it.  Them getting recognized by different organizations for doing one thing is nothing new and happens all the time. 

Storm Chaser

I don't think double dipping is an issue. But I do have an issue when the community service is required by their membership or participation in another program or organization, and it's then used for additional recognition in CAP. It's not different from a cadet getting credit for volunteer or community service for attending CAP weekly meetings, which is required as part of their membership in CAP.

Майор Хаткевич

I always found it odd that the "CAP Sponsored" thing is an issue. If a unit decides to help the "town cleanup" day event, it's an external event, what's wrong with counting it as community service?

Eclipse

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
I always found it odd that the "CAP Sponsored" thing is an issue. If a unit decides to help the "town cleanup" day event, it's an external event, what's wrong with counting it as community service?

It's another ill-fitting attempt to match the military model.

Yes, by all means encourage active forces to participate in the community during off hours.  Trying to make that fit CAP doesn't work, which is
why it constantly raises confusion.

A superhero-quick way to start fixing CAP is to start erasing the stuff that constantly raises the same questions - that is a clear indication of a flawed premise.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Maybe in the reg re-write. As far as I can see, most things outside of internal activities, can count for community service.

AirAux

If a non-CAP adult wants to come and help out during CAP meetings in order to meet his/her Court ordered Community Service requirement, wouldn't that be okay??

Eclipse

Quote from: AirAux on June 08, 2016, 09:18:59 PM
If a non-CAP adult wants to come and help out during CAP meetings in order to meet his/her Court ordered Community Service requirement, wouldn't that be okay??

Wow, so much "No".

"That Others May Zoom"

Spaceman3750

Quote from: AirAux on June 08, 2016, 09:18:59 PM
If a non-CAP adult wants to come and help out during CAP meetings in order to meet his/her Court ordered Community Service requirement, wouldn't that be okay??

Seriously?

kwe1009

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
I always found it odd that the "CAP Sponsored" thing is an issue. If a unit decides to help the "town cleanup" day event, it's an external event, what's wrong with counting it as community service?

CAPR 39-3 21.i. "Awarded to members who complete 60 hours of community service outside of Civil Air Patrol"

Also from http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/472/~/community-service-ribbon-for-cadets : "Community service projects conducted by CAP units do not qualify for this recognition."


Spam

Quote from: AirAux on June 08, 2016, 09:18:59 PM
If a non-CAP adult wants to come and help out during CAP meetings in order to meet his/her Court ordered Community Service requirement, wouldn't that be okay??


Yeaahhhh... no. Well, hmmm.  Lets think about this. Here's some brainstorming ideas:


1. You could tell them that due to our youth protection policy the answer must be no for regular meetings, but that you'd gladly certify their labor hours for the court if they were to come out and, under adult officer supervision, perform labor on your HQ. Lawncare/groundskeeping, scrape and paint, digging, scrub the unit van and change its oil, you name it.

2. Same could hold true if they have marketable skills that the unit could use, but without allowing access to regular meetings.

3. Contact the court and ask if your 501(c)3 charity could be designated as a worthy recipient of fines paid in lieu of community service hours. In my state (Georgia) we routinely use prisoners on chain gangs to cut grass by the highways, but many of our courts allow fines to be paid to organizations such as local M.A.D.D. and D.A.R.E. organizations. CAP might be a good candidate - check as always with your Wing/FM and /CC, of course.

Hey, why not ask, right?

Cheers
Spam


lordmonar

In the military.....military sponsored volunteer opportunities do count.   So it's not CAP trying to emulate the Air Force. 


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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: kwe1009 on June 09, 2016, 03:07:41 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
I always found it odd that the "CAP Sponsored" thing is an issue. If a unit decides to help the "town cleanup" day event, it's an external event, what's wrong with counting it as community service?

CAPR 39-3 21.i. "Awarded to members who complete 60 hours of community service outside of Civil Air Patrol"

Also from http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/472/~/community-service-ribbon-for-cadets : "Community service projects conducted by CAP units do not qualify for this recognition."


I know the reg. It's the logic that baffles me.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
I always found it odd that the "CAP Sponsored" thing is an issue. If a unit decides to help the "town cleanup" day event, it's an external event, what's wrong with counting it as community service?

Now how about when a unit mandates that all of the cadets have to be there?

I often see many "unit activities" where cadets get beat to death to show up but very few seniors turn out. In units that have 50 members, why must 20 cadets show but not the 30 seniors?

That's something I would include heavily in the debate as to what constitutes community service. If it's mandated, that takes away the "volunteer service" aspect for me.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 09, 2016, 01:55:02 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
I always found it odd that the "CAP Sponsored" thing is an issue. If a unit decides to help the "town cleanup" day event, it's an external event, what's wrong with counting it as community service?

Now how about when a unit mandates that all of the cadets have to be there?

I often see many "unit activities" where cadets get beat to death to show up but very few seniors turn out. In units that have 50 members, why must 20 cadets show but not the 30 seniors?

That's something I would include heavily in the debate as to what constitutes community service. If it's mandated, that takes away the "volunteer service" aspect for me.


No idea, as we never force cadets to do anything at our unit.

xray328

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 09, 2016, 05:04:11 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on June 09, 2016, 03:07:41 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
I always found it odd that the "CAP Sponsored" thing is an issue. If a unit decides to help the "town cleanup" day event, it's an external event, what's wrong with counting it as community service?

CAPR 39-3 21.i. "Awarded to members who complete 60 hours of community service outside of Civil Air Patrol"

Also from http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/472/~/community-service-ribbon-for-cadets : "Community service projects conducted by CAP units do not qualify for this recognition."


I know the reg. It's the logic that baffles me.


I agree, I don't understand this.  If the kids are doing community service, why not? We also don't force the cadets to do anything but for those that do, why can't we count these hours?  Ned?  I can see how airshows etc shouldn't count but why don't community service projects qualify?  At the very least they should count as "volunteer hours" the kids need for school.

There's still some confusion out there at the units regarding what counts as community service hours, what counts towards the community service ribbon, and what they can count as volunteer hours.  I think these are three separate things.

Storm Chaser

Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP. That's why community service within CAP doesn't qualify for the ribbon.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 10, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP. That's why community service within CAP doesn't qualify for the ribbon.


I would consider helping the community as a unit as being community service outside of CAP. I get that the reg forbids this, but the question is why? Volunteering is volunteering, and there's only so much time someone can give.

Alaric

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:38:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 10, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP. That's why community service within CAP doesn't qualify for the ribbon.


I would consider helping the community as a unit as being community service outside of CAP. I get that the reg forbids this, but the question is why? Volunteering is volunteering, and there's only so much time someone can give.

I believe that the intention is to award those who, in their time away from CAP they give back to their communities.  Most of the community service awards I have processed have been for (Coaching sports (little league, Pee Wees, etc), youth pastoring (volunteer), peer counseling, Red Cross, tutoring, and working in animal shelters)

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Alaric on June 10, 2016, 06:41:02 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:38:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 10, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP. That's why community service within CAP doesn't qualify for the ribbon.


I would consider helping the community as a unit as being community service outside of CAP. I get that the reg forbids this, but the question is why? Volunteering is volunteering, and there's only so much time someone can give.

I believe that the intention is to award those who, in their time away from CAP they give back to their communities.  Most of the community service awards I have processed have been for (Coaching sports (little league, Pee Wees, etc), youth pastoring (volunteer), peer counseling, Red Cross, tutoring, and working in animal shelters)


Right, because that's what is allowed. But is it any different if the local town has a "city park clean up day", and the unit decides to support the cause as a unit (and get visibility), vs everyone showing up as "individuals"?

Eclipse

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:43:03 PM
Quote from: Alaric on June 10, 2016, 06:41:02 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:38:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 10, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP. That's why community service within CAP doesn't qualify for the ribbon.


I would consider helping the community as a unit as being community service outside of CAP. I get that the reg forbids this, but the question is why? Volunteering is volunteering, and there's only so much time someone can give.

I believe that the intention is to award those who, in their time away from CAP they give back to their communities.  Most of the community service awards I have processed have been for (Coaching sports (little league, Pee Wees, etc), youth pastoring (volunteer), peer counseling, Red Cross, tutoring, and working in animal shelters)


Right, because that's what is allowed. But is it any different if the local town has a "city park clean up day", and the unit decides to support the cause as a unit (and get visibility), vs everyone showing up as "individuals"?

Yes, because the key is "away time". 

When you support the cause as a unit, you bring to bear more resources, not to mention the potential for
liability to CAP.  In that case you're doing your "CAP job", so to speak, which by design is serving the community.

I'd just as soon drop the thing altogether, and encourage people to use that "away time" time for CAP.
No, CAP is not a 24x7x365 service" and that's not the suggestion, but at the same time encouraging people to
do "not CAP" can also be self-defeating.

There's only so many hours in a month not accounted for.  Hearing Johnny can't come to rocketry on Sat, and
then handing him a decoration for not being there because of "other" will not stir the other souls who made it.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич


Alaric

Quote from: Eclipse on June 10, 2016, 07:41:33 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:43:03 PM
Quote from: Alaric on June 10, 2016, 06:41:02 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:38:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 10, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP. That's why community service within CAP doesn't qualify for the ribbon.


I would consider helping the community as a unit as being community service outside of CAP. I get that the reg forbids this, but the question is why? Volunteering is volunteering, and there's only so much time someone can give.

I believe that the intention is to award those who, in their time away from CAP they give back to their communities.  Most of the community service awards I have processed have been for (Coaching sports (little league, Pee Wees, etc), youth pastoring (volunteer), peer counseling, Red Cross, tutoring, and working in animal shelters)


Right, because that's what is allowed. But is it any different if the local town has a "city park clean up day", and the unit decides to support the cause as a unit (and get visibility), vs everyone showing up as "individuals"?

Yes, because the key is "away time". 

When you support the cause as a unit, you bring to bear more resources, not to mention the potential for
liability to CAP.  In that case you're doing your "CAP job", so to speak, which by design is serving the community.

I'd just as soon drop the thing altogether, and encourage people to use that "away time" time for CAP.
No, CAP is not a 24x7x365 service" and that's not the suggestion, but at the same time encouraging people to
do "not CAP" can also be self-defeating.

There's only so many hours in a month not accounted for.  Hearing Johnny can't come to rocketry on Sat, and
then handing him a decoration for not being there because of "other" will not stir the other souls who made it.

By the same token Eclipse there are many days of the week where a unit is having no activities, so rewarding Johnny, who instead of sitting on his x-box is a volunteer tutor at the local youth center would hopefully encourage those types of actions in others.

Alaric

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:43:03 PM
Quote from: Alaric on June 10, 2016, 06:41:02 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:38:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 10, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP. That's why community service within CAP doesn't qualify for the ribbon.


I would consider helping the community as a unit as being community service outside of CAP. I get that the reg forbids this, but the question is why? Volunteering is volunteering, and there's only so much time someone can give.

I believe that the intention is to award those who, in their time away from CAP they give back to their communities.  Most of the community service awards I have processed have been for (Coaching sports (little league, Pee Wees, etc), youth pastoring (volunteer), peer counseling, Red Cross, tutoring, and working in animal shelters)


Right, because that's what is allowed. But is it any different if the local town has a "city park clean up day", and the unit decides to support the cause as a unit (and get visibility), vs everyone showing up as "individuals"?

Yes, in addition to the liability that CAP takes on, coming out as a unit to serve the community is basically an advertisement and recruiting effort for the organization

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Alaric on June 13, 2016, 11:30:49 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:43:03 PM
Quote from: Alaric on June 10, 2016, 06:41:02 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 10, 2016, 06:38:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 10, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP. That's why community service within CAP doesn't qualify for the ribbon.


I would consider helping the community as a unit as being community service outside of CAP. I get that the reg forbids this, but the question is why? Volunteering is volunteering, and there's only so much time someone can give.

I believe that the intention is to award those who, in their time away from CAP they give back to their communities.  Most of the community service awards I have processed have been for (Coaching sports (little league, Pee Wees, etc), youth pastoring (volunteer), peer counseling, Red Cross, tutoring, and working in animal shelters)


Right, because that's what is allowed. But is it any different if the local town has a "city park clean up day", and the unit decides to support the cause as a unit (and get visibility), vs everyone showing up as "individuals"?

Yes, in addition to the liability that CAP takes on, coming out as a unit to serve the community is basically an advertisement and recruiting effort for the organization


I really don't see what's wrong with that. The Rotary club has their donated benches.

THRAWN

This is why I hate this "award": Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP.

CAP awards for CAP activities. If the Lions, or Rotary or Boy Scouts want to give you an award for doing stuff with them. That doesn't belong on a CAP uniform.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Alaric

Quote from: THRAWN on June 13, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
This is why I hate this "award": Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP.

CAP awards for CAP activities. If the Lions, or Rotary or Boy Scouts want to give you an award for doing stuff with them. That doesn't belong on a CAP uniform.

Military does the same thing, though the military does humanitarian missions as the military, they also award their members a ribbon for doing volunteer work

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Outstanding_Volunteer_Service_Medal

THRAWN

Quote from: Alaric on June 13, 2016, 03:20:21 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on June 13, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
This is why I hate this "award": Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP.

CAP awards for CAP activities. If the Lions, or Rotary or Boy Scouts want to give you an award for doing stuff with them. That doesn't belong on a CAP uniform.

Military does the same thing, though the military does humanitarian missions as the military, they also award their members a ribbon for doing volunteer work

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Outstanding_Volunteer_Service_Medal

1. We're not the military.
2. Yeah, the 1000 Points of Light medal. Ugh.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: THRAWN on June 13, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
This is why I hate this "award": Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP.

CAP awards for CAP activities. If the Lions, or Rotary or Boy Scouts want to give you an award for doing stuff with them. That doesn't belong on a CAP uniform.


I'm in the same boat. Why would I encourage people to do "other" when there is plenty to do in CAP? What other organization pushes volunteers to volunteer elsewhere?

stitchmom

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 13, 2016, 03:41:42 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on June 13, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
This is why I hate this "award": Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP.

CAP awards for CAP activities. If the Lions, or Rotary or Boy Scouts want to give you an award for doing stuff with them. That doesn't belong on a CAP uniform.


I'm in the same boat. Why would I encourage people to do "other" when there is plenty to do in CAP? What other organization pushes volunteers to volunteer elsewhere?

My quilting guild does. They have two ongoing community service projects and then one that changes every year.

Alaric

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 13, 2016, 03:41:42 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on June 13, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
This is why I hate this "award": Whether we agree with it or not, the intent of the CAP Community Service Ribbon is encourage and recognize community service outside of CAP.

CAP awards for CAP activities. If the Lions, or Rotary or Boy Scouts want to give you an award for doing stuff with them. That doesn't belong on a CAP uniform.


I'm in the same boat. Why would I encourage people to do "other" when there is plenty to do in CAP? What other organization pushes volunteers to volunteer elsewhere?

You're not encouraging them to do "other" you are recognizing that they choose to use their free time to serve their communities.  I don't know about your squadron, but mine only meets once a week, and though I would love to believe that everyone in CAP thinks that CAP is just the best thing in the universe, I recognize that my members have other interests and passions.  I have no issues standing up in front of a meeting and recognizing Cadet Snuffy for serving as a volunteer peer counselor, or SM Jones for coaching youth soccer (as a volunteer).  If you have that much heart burn, put in a regulatory change request through channels, otherwise, deal

Майор Хаткевич

Not my wheel house. I've seen a few members submit the paperwork and get the credit. Outside of that, I don't really care, just curious on the reasoning.