POLL: Time in Grade for Cadets

Started by Cadetter, September 24, 2014, 05:56:46 PM

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Is the minimum 8 weeks time in grade good for cadets?

Yes. Cadets should be allowed to promote quickly, but not too quickly. 8 weeks TIG is just about right.
Yes. If a cadet is eligible for promotion at 8 weeks, the commander should promote them because they have passed the tests.
Yes. If a cadet is not mature enough for promotion, the commander should retain the cadet in grade and offer feedback per CAPR 52-16.
Yes. There should be some time requirement, so why not 8 weeks?
No. There should be no time in grade requirements; if a cadet has passed the tests and is mature enough, promote them.
No. It gives cadets the mindset that they must promote every 8 weeks.
No. 8 weeks is far too little to show excellence in the "leadership lab."
No. There should be no time in grade requirements; if a cadet has passed the tests they should be promoted.
Yes. (Please explain below.)
No. (Please explain below.)

Майор Хаткевич


Cadetter

By allowing a capable, hardworking, motivated cadet to advance so they would be the proper rank for a staff position that should be filled. And I have seen it a lot. Currently am dealing with it.
Wright Brothers Award, 2013
Billy Mitchell Award, 2016
Earhart Award, 2018

Eclipse

Fast burning a cadet just to fill a staff position
is a problem, not a solution.

"That Others May Zoom"

Cadetter

Sir, if they are an older, mature, cadet (like 18 or 19), where is the problem?
Wright Brothers Award, 2013
Billy Mitchell Award, 2016
Earhart Award, 2018

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Cadetter on September 26, 2014, 07:17:36 PM
Sir, if they are an older, mature, cadet (like 18 or 19), where is the problem?


Where is the advantage?

jeders

Quote from: Cadetter on September 26, 2014, 07:17:36 PM
Sir, if they are an older, mature, cadet (like 18 or 19), where is the problem?

Hmmm, putting a teenager who thinks they know everything into a position of authority with little experience in lower levels due to fast burning through them. Oh, and lets add the fact that a lot of CP officers and squadron commanders are going to promote people before they are mature enough for the promotion just because they checked all the boxes. Nope, can't see any chance of that going horribly wrong.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Cadetter

The advantage is that the squadron will have a capable cadet who can help the squadron assigned to a staff position.

If they think they know everything, they are not mature and hence do not qualify for what I am talking about.
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Billy Mitchell Award, 2016
Earhart Award, 2018

jeders

Quote from: Cadetter on September 26, 2014, 07:30:01 PM
The advantage is that the squadron will have a capable cadet who can help the squadron assigned to a staff position.

If they think they know everything, they are not mature and hence do not qualify for what I am talking about.

Except that they can't help because they haven't "been there, done that" if they are promoting every couple/few weeks. Also, while you may think that maturity is something that everyone can tell and only the best will advance, I can tell you right now that that isn't true. Incompetent immature cadets are promoted well past their abilities today despite that 8 week rule, that's a problem. This proposal does nothing to curb that and will most likely make it more common.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Cadetter on September 26, 2014, 07:30:01 PM
The advantage is that the squadron will have a capable cadet who can help the squadron assigned to a staff position.

If they think they know everything, they are not mature and hence do not qualify for what I am talking about.


Like what? We need a C/Commander, so lets promote C/A1C Seventeen to C/Captain in the next two months? Because his old and wise age will cover the lack of 2+ years of CAP experience to lead in a CAP environment? But hey, we're all friends, I'm sure the morale of all the OTHER cadets won't be affected.

Cadetter

Quote from: jeders on September 26, 2014, 07:45:32 PM
Except that they can't help because they haven't "been there, done that" if they are promoting every couple/few weeks. Also, while you may think that maturity is something that everyone can tell and only the best will advance, I can tell you right now that that isn't true. Incompetent immature cadets are promoted well past their abilities today despite that 8 week rule, that's a problem. This proposal does nothing to curb that and will most likely make it more common.

Sir (?), have you ever heard of semi-realistic idealism?

True on the BTDT, although it isn't *that* hard to think what it's like to be in such-and-such position below flight sergeant.

Most reasonable adults can recognize most forms of maturity. I know that "incompetent, immature cadets are promoted well past their abilities despite that 8 week rule" because I have been one of those cadets.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 26, 2014, 07:50:31 PM
Like what? We need a C/Commander, so lets promote C/A1C Seventeen to C/Captain in the next two months? Because his old and wise age will cover the lack of 2+ years of CAP experience to lead in a CAP environment? But hey, we're all friends, I'm sure the morale of all the OTHER cadets won't be affected.

Max of flight sergeant. Not all staff positions must be filled. Need experience, yes, but if C/A1C Seventeen is an outstanding cadet, and is in reality the most qualified and "best" cadet in the squadron - why not?

Morale - Not saying that this only applies to cadets above X age. Just example of cadets in that age range.
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Billy Mitchell Award, 2016
Earhart Award, 2018

Майор Хаткевич

Flight sergeants aren't a required position. C/CC (at C/Capt or higher) is. Of your unit doesn't have anyone to fill the role, you don't. SMs are supposed to guide the program at the appropriate level, taking a step back when cadets can take a step forward. 

jeders

Quote from: Cadetter on September 26, 2014, 07:58:47 PM
Sir (?), have you ever heard of semi-realistic idealism?

Yes I have, have you ever heard of reality? Because that is what you need to be judging things on, not a pie in the sky dream.

Quote
True on the BTDT

Thank you for agreeing that your argument has no foundation.

QuoteMost reasonable adults can recognize most forms of maturity.

You've been an adult have you?

QuoteI know that "incompetent, immature cadets are promoted well past their abilities despite that 8 week rule" because I have been one of those cadets.

So if you know that incompetent cadets are promoted by well-intentioned commanders, and you know that leaders need some real BTDT experience, why are you continuing to advocate for this change?

Quote...if C/A1C Seventeen is an outstanding cadet, and is in reality the most qualified and "best" cadet in the squadron - why not?

So if c/A1C Seventeen really is the best, then appoint him to a leadership position; but don't short change him by promoting him beyond his experience or abilities.

-Jed Taylor
Former fast burning test banker
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Cadetter

Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 26, 2014, 08:35:34 PM
Flight sergeants aren't a required position. C/CC (at C/Capt or higher) is. Of your unit doesn't have anyone to fill the role, you don't. SMs are supposed to guide the program at the appropriate level, taking a step back when cadets can take a step forward. 
SMs are supposed to, yes.

The reason I said max of flight sergeant is because that is, in my opinion, the most logical thing in the hypothetical case - obviously having an inexperienced cadet commander is a poor idea, but flight sergeant is an entry-level leadership position.

Quote from: jeders on September 26, 2014, 08:53:16 PM
Yes I have, have you ever heard of reality? Because that is what you need to be judging things on, not a pie in the sky dream.

Thank you for agreeing that your argument has no foundation.

You've been an adult have you?

So if you know that incompetent cadets are promoted by well-intentioned commanders, and you know that leaders need some real BTDT experience, why are you continuing to advocate for this change?

So if c/A1C Seventeen really is the best, then appoint him to a leadership position; but don't short change him by promoting him beyond his experience or abilities.

-Jed Taylor
Former fast burning test banker

Yes, I have not, no, because I am very stubborn, and precisely what I am saying.
Wright Brothers Award, 2013
Billy Mitchell Award, 2016
Earhart Award, 2018

Eclipse

#53
Quote from: Cadetter on September 26, 2014, 07:58:47 PM
semi-realistic idealism?

Nowhere in a context where the words go together.

Quote from: Cadetter on September 26, 2014, 07:58:47 PM
but if C/A1C Seventeen is an outstanding cadet, and is in reality the most qualified and "best" cadet in the squadron - why not?

Because "best" and "most qualified" are relative terms and mean little in a system which espouses objective criteria, and in an organization
which will accept just about anyone as a member.

In a room full of brand new slick-sleeve cadets, the one who has read the brochure and knows how to properly
pronounce "CAP" may be the "most qualified", but isn't actually qualified.

In times of stress and emergency, occasionally people will rise above their training and assume a mantle considered
well above what they would normally be qualified to carry, however the risk when doing this is harm to both the
subordinates and the leader, and in the normal course of squadron operations there is no justification for the risk.

Since adult members are always responsible for squadron operations, there is no such thing as a "required"
cadet staff position. Unit CCs who don't understand this appoint cadets ahead of their phase to the detriment of everyone
involved.

You seem to be viewing the TIG as somehow holding a cadet back, quite the opposite, it is intended to allow a cadet the experience
to grow into the grade appropriate roles and responsibilities.

At the enlisted and lower NCO levels, this might not seem like such a big deal, but 2-3 fast clicks and a cadet will find themselves
in a position that they are ill-equipped to handle, and when those situations occur, they become retention issues quickly,
because few adolescents are interested in being held out as failures, even though failing is more important then success
during your developing years.

So fast-burner cadets with well-intentioned and ill-informed leaders tend to rise quickly until the first time they find an empty
cup, and then no one hears from them again.

"That Others May Zoom"

Cadetter

Quote from: Eclipse on September 26, 2014, 09:03:19 PM
Unit CCs who don't understand this appoint cadets ahead of their phase to the detriment of everyone
involved.

Training problem.
Wright Brothers Award, 2013
Billy Mitchell Award, 2016
Earhart Award, 2018

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Cadetter on September 26, 2014, 09:08:25 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 26, 2014, 09:03:19 PM
Unit CCs who don't understand this appoint cadets ahead of their phase to the detriment of everyone
involved.

Training problem.

That's what you're advocating for.

Cadetter

Quote from: Cadetter on September 26, 2014, 09:08:25 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 26, 2014, 09:03:19 PM
Unit CCs who don't understand this appoint cadets ahead of their phase to the detriment of everyone
involved.

Training problem.
Wright Brothers Award, 2013
Billy Mitchell Award, 2016
Earhart Award, 2018

Eclipse

^ Yes, and the ones who do, would never consider the idea.

Are CAP CC's inconsistently trained and many times chosen based on physical presence?

Yes.

Which is why the program, especially on the cadet side, is standardized, and leaves little room for people to be "special".

"That Others May Zoom"

Cadetter

Sir, CCs already are the promotion authority. Fail to see it - What is changing in what I am advocating?
Wright Brothers Award, 2013
Billy Mitchell Award, 2016
Earhart Award, 2018

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Cadetter on September 26, 2014, 09:52:23 PM
Sir, CCs already are the promotion authority. Fail to see it - What is changing in what I am advocating?


The squadron commander's child becoming the top dog within a few weeks, merit or no? An insurmountable tide of C/NCOs who don't know left from right? Chaos at encampments because selected staff are clueless? Zero progression to C/Officer grades because it's too hard after being swiftly advanced to C/NCO status?


How do you imagine this working out?