POLL: Time in Grade for Cadets

[SarDragon]

Why 8 weeks?

50 years of experience with the current cadet program structure. It's a short enough period of time to give the fast burners experience in the grade, without throttling them back too much, and it ensures a long enough time to to get slower learners up to speed.

[Cadetter]

StormChaser - Not detrimental (to their goals) unless they are an older cadet (to a 19 year old C/MSgt it may well be important to promote right now if he wants to get above his Earhart).

SarDragon - In my admittedly limited experience as a fast burner, 8 weeks is not enough for experience. 12-16 weeks is closer to what was/is necessary for me. In a couple other "fast burner" cases I know of, 5 weeks would have been enough.

[Eclipse]

And since a standardized system needs something beyond "command determination" to decide?

What's about midpoint between 5 and 12?  About 8?  Hm...

The trouble is that "command determination" isn't an option in a situation where you
have inconsistently trained commanders with diverse motivations. A poor CC who cares more
about making members happy then helping them grow may be inclined to simply open the flood gates.

I have personally been witness to units where every cadet makes every promotion exactly to the
date they are eligible, only to see these same cadets be unable to perform at grade level
and not a single one ever even attempted Spaatz.

The motivation in those cases was not where it should have been, nor the supervision from higher HQ.

[Майор Хаткевич]

And since a standardized system needs something beyond "command determination" to decide?

What's about midpoint between 5 and 12?  About 8?  Hm...

The trouble is that "command determination" isn't an option in a situation where you
have inconsistently trained commanders with diverse motivations. A poor CC who cares more
about making members happy then helping them grow may be inclined to simply open the flood gates.

I have personally been witness to units where every cadet makes every promotion exactly to the
date they are eligible, only to see these same cadets be unable to perform at grade level
and not a single one ever even attempted Spaatz.

he motivation in those cases was not where it should ave been, nor the supervision from higher HQ.

And that's how you end up with C/Majors in a training flight at an encampment commanded by a C/Capt with C/1st Lt Exec staff.

[Eclipse]

Yep. (Though we're speaking hypothetically, of course...)

[Cadetter]

The trouble is that "command determination" isn't an option in a situation where you
have inconsistently trained commanders with diverse motivations. A poor CC who cares more
about making members happy then helping them grow may be inclined to simply open the flood gates.

Then, train commanders consistently. (Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about now.)

I have personally been witness to units where every cadet makes every promotion exactly to the
date they are eligible, only to see these same cadets be unable to perform at grade level...

They should get their promotion "on the date they are eligible" if they are mature, hardworking, whatever, enough to get the promotion - they are not eligible if they are unable to perform at grade level. True eligibility includes ability to perform one's job.

The motivation in those cases was not where it should have been...

True and false.

And that's how you end up with C/Majors in a training flight at an encampment commanded by a C/Capt with C/1st Lt Exec staff.

Just an aside - what is a training flight at encampment? Isn't one either staff or a basic?

[SarDragon]

SarDragon - In my admittedly limited experience as a fast burner, 8 weeks is not enough for experience. 12-16 weeks is closer to what was/is necessary for me. In a couple other "fast burner" cases I know of, 5 weeks would have been enough.

Well, Maybe you aren't Ace of the Base, and just Wingman of the base. 

[lordmonar]

Weird.

52-16 already says everything that you are talking about.

The 8 week is the MINIMUM TIG before eligible for promotion.

What do you need to get promoted?

Leadership Test.
Aerospace Test.
Character Development.
Drill Test.
PT Test.
TIG

-----AND------

Commander's sign off that the cadet meets the maturity, responsibility and leadership guidelines as spelled out in 52-16.

No one.....should be getting promoted until he/she meets ALL of the promotion requirements.

If they meet those requirements in 8 weeks then they deserve to be promoted.   If it takes 6 months....it takes six months.

Where the break down happens is one commander may have a different ideal of "what a SSgt should be" vs what another commander thinks.

This is solved by consistent training by wing CP officer and active over sight of squadron CP operations by those same officers.

[Cadetter]

lordmonar - In the (hypothetical) instance that a cadet meets all the requirements in, say, 2 weeks - why make them wait?

What's a CP officer?

[SarDragon]

lordmonar - In the (hypothetical) instance that a cadet meets all the requirements in, say, 2 weeks - why make them wait?

What's a CP officer?

CP officer is, amazingly enough, Cadet Programs Officer. Funny how that works.

As for the other Q, Do you really think the two weeks is enough time to demonstrate "the maturity, responsibility and leadership guidelines as spelled out in 52-16"? That's barely enough time to accomplish the required testing.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Cadetter, Training flight, I suppose now is actually "basic" flight. I was talking about typical second year "advanced" flight. Many places know them by many names. Realistically, doesn't matter, a phase IV should be running the show, not learning to drill a flight or lead a small group.

[lordmonar]

lordmonar - In the (hypothetical) instance that a cadet meets all the requirements in, say, 2 weeks - why make them wait?

What's a CP officer?

If it has only been two weeks......they have met all of the requirements.

Why?  Because sitting there in rank learning the responsibilities of that ranks is part of the program.  Getting experience at one level is part of the process.

Sure.....there are some cadets who could easily jump up take on higher rank and responsibilities.....but that is just the way it goes.

[Cadetter]

SarDragon, had never heard of one before now, thank you sir. I love sarcasm.

lordmonar and SarDragon, for some great individuals, it is enough time.

[lordmonar]

I agree but there is no mechanism in the program to accelerate a high speed low drag cadet. And if there were it would be abused too much.  8 weeks is not to long to make some one wait.

[BHartman007]

...for some great individuals, it is enough time.

Lemme guess. You?

[Cadetter]

...for some great individuals, it is enough time.

Lemme guess. You?

Nope.

The tests aren't terribly challenging for me yet, but the "leadership lab" is.

[PHall]

And that's how you end up with C/Majors in a training flight at an encampment commanded by a C/Capt with C/1st Lt Exec staff.

I thought it's because the C/Capt and the C/1st Lt applied for and were selected for their positions and the C/Maj didn't.

[Eclipse]

And that's how you end up with C/Majors in a training flight at an encampment commanded by a C/Capt with C/1st Lt Exec staff.

I thought it's because the C/Capt and the C/1st Lt applied for and were selected for their positions and the C/Maj didn't.

A valid assumption from 50k feet - more like "due to the inability to perform at grade level, we're making some changes..."

The term "tarnished diamonds" might be a little melodramatic, but it's also sadly apropos. Certainly was very disappointing
for a number of reasons.

[Storm Chaser]

StormChaser - Not detrimental (to their goals) unless they are an older cadet (to a 19 year old C/MSgt it may well be important to promote right now if he wants to get above his Earhart).

A 19 year old C/MSgt would most likely not care that much about earning the Earhart Award, as he/she would have different goals at that age.

As a former cadet and senior member with years of experience with the Cadet Program, I understand what you're saying. But trust me, "wants" and "needs" are not the same. The program has evolved into what it is based on years of experience and lessons learned. There's always room for improvement. But I don't think this is an area where we want to spend too much time or effort "reinventing the wheel" just because it would be convenient for some cadets to promote faster or earlier.

If you really want to improve the Cadet Programs, there are other areas in need of attention.

[Cadetter]

A 19 year old C/MSgt would most likely not care that much about earning the Earhart Award, as he/she would have different goals at that age.

I've seen more than four (around that grade) who cared, but yes, a lot of 19 year olds wouldn't.

As a former cadet and senior member with years of experience with the Cadet Program, I understand what you're saying. But trust me, "wants" and "needs" are not the same. The program has evolved into what it is based on years of experience and lessons learned. There's always room for improvement. But I don't think this is an area where we want to spend too much time or effort "reinventing the wheel" just because it would be convenient for some cadets to promote faster or earlier.

If you really want to improve the Cadet Programs, there are other areas in need of attention.

Sir, it would be convenient to some squadrons as well.

I can only name around 20 areas to improve on for Cadet Programs...