Volunteer-Only Attitude in Cadets

[Eclipse]

Besides CAP DL, what else is there that 18-20 year old can't do?

Wear officer grade, otherwise, nothing I know of.

some of the Section Chief level ES quals have a 21 age

Not an issue - I'd have to do the math, but I don't think you could go from slick sleeve to a section chief in
3 years, it would certainly be unusual.

[coudano]

Bottom line.

People under the age of 18 can only Join CAP as CADETS....that is to participate in the Cadet Program.

If Cadet X only does the minimum to avoid a 2b.....well there you go.
If Cadet X has no problem with being the youngest C/SrA follows the cadets promoted over him....including the 12 year old C/SSgt....then again...there you go.

Bottom line.   It is the cadet's money (or his parents anyway) if he wants to just throw it away....I got not problem taking it.  So long as he is not a hindrance to the rest of my program.

A 17 year old (any cadet, actually, but I make no exception for a 17 year old) dead headding as a C/AB *IS* a hindrance to the rest of my program.

If you are 17 and you want to join and fully participate, and both follow and set a positive example (advance your education and training rapidly, learn to be a leader, and seek out higher and higher levels of responsibility), then i'll allow it (and I have allowed 17 year olds under exactly those conditions).   If you just want to "be there", well, quite frankly, that's senior member work.

[Eclipse]

If you just want to "be there", well, quite frankly, that's senior member work.

Heh - nice.

There's also the issue that he's going to have to promote at >least< once because without the magic Curry, he can't do anything.

[JeffDG]

Besides CAP DL, what else is there that 18-20 year old can't do?

Wear officer grade, otherwise, nothing I know of.

some of the Section Chief level ES quals have a 21 age

Not an issue - I'd have to do the math, but I don't think you could go from slick sleeve to a section chief in
3 years, it would certainly be unusual.

I wasn't 18 when I joined, but i went from newb to IC in that time frame.  But then again, life experience counts for a lot when progressing to the higher levels.

Logistics Section Chief (21 minimum age) has only MSA as a prerequisite.  Same for FASC.

[Eclipse]

Logistics Section Chief (21 minimum age) has only MSA as a prerequisite.  Same for FASC.

Fair enough, but not likely to be something the average Sierra-Hotel 18 year old is going to gravitate towards anyway.

[RTFB]

He should look elsewhere to spend his volunteer time.  This will save everyone a lot of trouble.

This attitude is poison to Senior Members as well.  Best to send him on his way.

Poison?  Just because someone sees through the pomp-and-circumstance and wants to focus on the public service component of CAP does not make him poisonous.  I've known many SMs with zero desire to wear anything but the golf shirt, do anything but the bare minimum professional development, or hold any staff positions or rank.  They were invaluable as CFIs, check pilots, and other highly skilled professionals without whom certain cadets would not have earned their PPL, hundreds of hours of actual missions and o-rides would not have been flown, and dozens of MP/MO/MS/AP trainees would not have gotten qualified.  Some even took the initiative to get entirely new operational missions on the books in support of USAF units/bases.  Oh, and they also made significant financial contributions to the squadron and group out of their own pockets, which enabled many other members to benefit from new equipment and services.  But I guess it really wasn't that much, considering the average pension of a retired O-6 or O-7. 

[tsrup]

^^Then they do not understand what it is to be a part of CAP if they do not wish to be a part of the so called "pomp and circumstance".

All regulations should be followed, and just participating in the bare minimum or a small portion of the program should not be a crutch upon which to bare your volunteerism. 

There are multiple opportunities to offer the bear minimum, and CAP has delineated guidelines of what that is, and here's the shocker: The golf shirt isn't it.

If they want to wear whatever they want and fly airplanes, there is a program out there for them. /deadequine

[RTFB]

There are multiple opportunities to offer the bear minimum, and CAP has delineated guidelines of what that is, and here's the shocker: The golf shirt isn't it.

Huh?  I don't understand this sentence.  Explain to me how SMs are required to own any uniform other than the golf shirt combo (excluding attendance at a specific school/activity that specifies a different uniform).  Please point me to the specific regulation; or, if it isn't explicitly stated in the regs, use sound reasoning to lead me to your conclusion.

[Eclipse]

There are multiple opportunities to offer the bear minimum, and CAP has delineated guidelines of what that is, and here's the shocker: The golf shirt isn't it.

Huh?  I don't understand this sentence.  Explain to me how SMs are required to own any uniform other than the golf shirt combo (excluding attendance at a specific school/activity that specifies a different uniform).  Please point me to the specific regulation; or, if it isn't explicitly stated in the regs, use sound reasoning to lead me to your conclusion.

The golf shirt is not the minimum basic uniform, the blues or the whites are.

CAPM 39-1 Page 8
"1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.

b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt;
gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP
nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve."

[Майор Хаткевич]

Anyone else smell that? Like someone got burned or something.

[a2capt]

Anyone else smell that? Like someone got burned or something.

Oh, no. There will be some snappy, railing, put down response to it. Worry not.

[Garibaldi]

Anyone else smell that? Like someone got burned or something.

I believe the phrase you are looking for is "ooooo....sick burn."

[RogueLeader]

Anyone else smell that? Like someone got burned or something.

I believe the phrase you are looking for is "ooooo....sick burn."

All I smell is overcooked troll.

[Luis R. Ramos]

And the ubiquitous smell coming from the ever-present poor equine that has received too many sticks after it stopped moving from old age...

Flyer

[Alaric]

There are multiple opportunities to offer the bear minimum, and CAP has delineated guidelines of what that is, and here's the shocker: The golf shirt isn't it.

Huh?  I don't understand this sentence.  Explain to me how SMs are required to own any uniform other than the golf shirt combo (excluding attendance at a specific school/activity that specifies a different uniform).  Please point me to the specific regulation; or, if it isn't explicitly stated in the regs, use sound reasoning to lead me to your conclusion.

The golf shirt is not the minimum basic uniform, the blues or the whites are.

CAPM 39-1 Page 8
"1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.

b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt;
gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP
nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve."

This is one of the things that should be made clear to people as before they join, yes it's a volunteer organization, but it has requirements and members are expected to follow them.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Agreed, but how will it happen?

I have heard some squadron commanders propagating the polo shirt myth when telling prospective new member about the uniform... as they sign the membership application.

Flyer

[Critical AOA]

Yes CAPM 39-1 is pretty clear. While members are required to equip themselves with one of the listed basic uniforms, when are they required to wear it?  If a SM attends his squadron meetings regularly, flies regularly, attends SAREXs , does missions and performs other duties when tasked  and has only worn the golf shirt and the flight suit when doing all of these, what purpose does the white shirt hanging in the back of his closet serve?  Yes, he has to buy it but if no one in his chain of command makes it the required uniform at an activity he attends, it becomes a moot issue and a waste of the member's money.  So then, what purpose does it serve?  Hopefully the rewrite of 39-1 will do away with this requirement.  There is no real CAP mission where the golf shirt or flight suit will not meet the missions goals and objectives. 

[lordmonar]

What purpose does having the required uniform serve?

On that one time a year when the squadron commander says "we should all be wearing the same type of uniform."

Same reason why every AD enlisted maintenance airman is supposed to maintain a full service dress....even if he only wears it once or twice a year (if that much).  Or why AD officers are required to maintain mess dress.

Wear what is appropriate for your daily CAP work....but maintain the basic minimum uniform.....because it is required.

End of story.

And no....the rewrite of 39-1 will not drop the requirement.

[Critical AOA]

Yes, I understand that it is required.  That is why I have a white aviator shirt in my closet. I am in compliance.  Yet all that I have ever worn is the golf shirt and flight suit.  They get the job done.  On your hypothetical one day a year that a commander wants to make an arbitrary decision that he wants everyone to wear the same uniform, which uniform would he so designate to be worn?    Would it be the blues or the whites?  As they both meet the requirement of 39-1 of the basic uniform and a member must have one or the other but is not required to have both; not all members would be in the same uniform anyway.  Get it?  So again, what productive purpose does it serve?  The logical and intelligent answer is none.   

And what AD does is irrelevant.  We are not AD military or even reserve or even national guard.  We are civilians.

[Walkman]

Our SMS are on both sides of the corporate/AF style uniform wear. We mostly wear polos or BDUs for the first three weeks. The 4th week is Blues week and for the most part, we all wear either blues or whites. We also try to be in blues or whites for special occasions like Mitchell awards. So in our unit at least, SMs will wear their "basic required" uniform at least once a month.