Volunteer-Only Attitude in Cadets

[Archer]

I have a perspective cadet who's stated that he's not really interested in the whole "learning modules and promoting thing." He's fine with learning the drill, proper uniform wear, courtesies, and all the other operationally necessary parts, but that he's just not interested in learning things just to test and promote. He said he's wants to be there just to volunteer his time and service to the Air Force and CAP(not his words, but I assume that means doing SAR and supporting air shows and whatnot). Now I want to be honest with the kid, is that attitude gonna fly(get it?) in this organization or would it be best for everyone involved to tell him either wait a year and become an FO on his 18th and/or hit up the local USCGAUX flotilla in the mean time?

[Brad]

May want to make him aware of CAPR 35-3 that lists "Failure to progress satisfactorily in the CAP cadet program" as one of the causes for membership termination, HOWEVER that is not one of the automatic reasons, so it is left to the commander to initiate termination for that, or not at all.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

You need to forget the idea that it's all about the cadet side of the house because he is under eighteen, and focus on the idea of training him in the areas he's concerned about.

Gotta be blunt.

The thing about it is, even if he busts out a few promotions, what does that do for him? He's still going to be C/SMsgt at the highest, which doesn't help him at all once he flips to the Senior side of the house. The guy wants to learn all of the drill, uniform, ES, C&C, so teach him that!
You have a chance to turn this guy into a Senior member asset that would not only support your cadet program, but understand it as well. He can stay C/Amn Skippy for the year (in  my opinion), but he should still go to encampment as a student, go on every ES training he can be there for, and get himself operationally ready to be a Senior Member.

When you are twelve to fourteen and have the chance to make Spaatz, go to national activities, go to IACE and all that jazz, promotions and that sort of thing are critical, because you still have so much you can get out of the program. Unfortunately he, (and myself when I was his age) doesn't stand much to gain through all the studying and time-sucking promotion check-offs.

If you want to terminate a guy because he doesn't want to waste his time, and wants to use it effectively on training he'll use in the future, that's your and your commander's decision. I was in that position as a cadet, and I would never have come back to CAP if you did that to me.

I recommend you show him how your side of the house works from the ground up, teach him everything he wants to know, and train him how to be an excellent CP officer in the future (one that actually cares about all the things Seniors usually don't care about  ). Just my 2 cents worth...

[Brad]

You need to forget the idea that it's all about the cadet side of the house because he is under eighteen, and focus on the idea of training him in the areas he's concerned about.

Gotta be blunt.

The thing about it is, even if he busts out a few promotions, what does that do for him? He's still going to be C/SMsgt at the highest, which doesn't help him at all once he flips to the Senior side of the house. The guy wants to learn all of the drill, uniform, ES, C&C, so teach him that!
You have a chance to turn this guy into a Senior member asset that would not only support your cadet program, but understand it as well. He can stay C/Amn Skippy for the year (in  my opinion), but he should still go to encampment as a student, go on every ES training he can be there for, and get himself operationally ready to be a Senior Member.

When you are twelve to fourteen and have the chance to make Spaatz, go to national activities, go to IACE and all that jazz, promotions and that sort of thing are critical, because you still have so much you can get out of the program. Unfortunately he, (and myself when I was his age) doesn't stand much to gain through all the studying and time-sucking promotion check-offs.

If you want to terminate a guy because he doesn't want to waste his time, and wants to use it effectively on training he'll use in the future, that's your and your commander's decision. I was in that position as a cadet, and I would never have come back to CAP if you did that to me.

I recommend you show him how your side of the house works from the ground up, teach him everything he wants to know, and train him how to be an excellent CP officer in the future (one that actually cares about all the things Seniors usually don't care about  ). Just my 2 cents worth...

There ya go. Brain hasn't reached cruise altitude yet, heh. Yea this is exactly the scenario a flight officer rank is intended to address, preparing cadets to become senior members, but just because he's not 18 yet doesn't mean you can start working with him on planning out a solid CAP career as a senior member.

[coudano]

He has an attitude problem, and it's going to be disruptive to the other cadets.
If it was my squadron...  "Get moving or get out."

[Woodsy]

He has an attitude problem, and it's going to be disruptive to the other cadets.
If it was my squadron...  "Get moving or get out."

I would say the same to a SM with your attitude. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Cadets promote. If he wants to be a SM, he can wait.

[Woodsy]

Cadets promote. If he wants to be a SM, he can wait.

Disagree.  What we have here is a potentially very valuable future senior member.  What are the odds he will come back as a SM in a year?  17-18 year olds find other things to do fast.  Heck, even adults do.  The "get moving or get out" attitude in this situation is counterproductive to our long-term needs. 

[NC Hokie]

I'd ask that he make an effort to get the Wright Brothers Award during his short cadet career.  Here's why:

First of all, he'll have to promote to C/Amn to begin training in ES, so that's one mandatory promotion right there.

Second, as a senior member flight officer, he will outrank cadets that he served under and with.  They will NOT take him seriously if he does not take the cadet program seriously.  Been there, done that, and have nothing to show for it.

Finally, everything that he learns and does as a cadet will make him that much more valuable as a senior member.

[coudano]

He has an attitude problem, and it's going to be disruptive to the other cadets.
If it was my squadron...  "Get moving or get out."

I would say the same to a SM with your attitude.

I'll amend, based on the fact that it's a prospective cadet (I did not catch that the first time around)
I thought it was a cadet who was already in.

That said, yes, wait until the 18th bday and join as a S/M.

[Eclipse]

I have a perspective cadet who's stated that he's not really interested in the whole "learning modules and promoting thing."

He should look elsewhere to spend his volunteer time.  This will save everyone a lot of trouble.

This attitude is poison to Senior Members as well.  Best to send him on his way.

[lordmonar]

Bottom line.

People under the age of 18 can only Join CAP as CADETS....that is to participate in the Cadet Program.

If Cadet X only does the minimum to avoid a 2b.....well there you go.
If Cadet X has no problem with being the youngest C/SrA follows the cadets promoted over him....including the 12 year old C/SSgt....then again...there you go.

Bottom line.   It is the cadet's money (or his parents anyway) if he wants to just throw it away....I got not problem taking it.  So long as he is not a hindrance to the rest of my program.

[UH60guy]

He's fine with learning the drill, proper uniform wear, courtesies,
...
He said he's wants to be there just to volunteer his time and service to the Air Force and CAP
...

Sounds to me like he's just interested in wearing the uniform, not actually realizing what CAP is and what the uniform means. Might I suggest a local halloween shop or a military surplus store? He can wear his own uniform all day and not bother anyone.

I have to have a similar discussion with quite a few people before they enlist- They're always enamored with the USMC uniform (they do have style) but no idea of what they would DO in the Corps. Same thing here. He wants to be in BDUs/Blues, but has no idea about the organization behind the uniform.

That's great if he wants to volunteer his service. He just has to keep in mind that we want a specific TYPE of service, not just a well dressed lump in a uniform.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

If I read the OP correctly this prospective cadet has recently turned 17. If he joins as a cadet he could remain one until 21. That's almost 4 years.
That makes the Mitchell possible to likely, the Earhart possible, and if he's high speed the Spaatz on the outer edge.

Unless his SAR interest in in aircrew he can do that as a cadet. I'd encourage the cadet program to at least Mitchell. Then if he wants to go senior at least he'll have a good dose of CAP leadership experience. He'll also have established a pattern of setting and achieving goals which might carry over to senior PD participation.

IMHO, a Flight Officer who has been there and done that as a cadet is going to have a better chance of success.

If it was my call. I'd say honestly work the cadet program for the year and then we'll discuss options at 18.

[RiverAux]

Is anyone surprised that a 17-year old prospective cadet would primarily be interested in ES and other operational activities?  After all, this is the age when many are deciding to join the military and I daresay that a percentage of them aren't doing it for the leadership training that would be available. 

Senior members aren't joining CAP to participate in the senior member training program so the fact that a prospective cadet of that age might be drawn in by the same things that draws many senior members only makes sense. 

Could a 17-year old pick up some good knowledge working the rest of the cadet program?  Probably.  Is it worth it for the, "why should I salute a 14-year old?" issues that often come with older new cadets?  Maybe not. 

It is interesting that the Coast Guard Aux lets 17-year olds fully participate in their programs while you've got to be 21 to get all senior member "privileges" in CAP. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Besides CAP DL, what else is there that 18-20 year old can't do?

[lordmonar]

Besides CAP DL, what else is there that 18-20 year old can't do?

Cadets cannot be pilots if there are any other cadets on board.

Cadets cannot be left alone and unsupervised.....at least that is the way some anti-cadet senior only types read the regulation.

Cadets can't drive golf carts if there are any other cadets on board.

[Eclipse]

Besides CAP DL, what else is there that 18-20 year old can't do?

Wear officer grade, otherwise, nothing I know of.

[Eclipse]

Besides CAP DL, what else is there that 18-20 year old can't do?

Cadets cannot be pilots if there are any other cadets on board.

Cadets cannot be left alone and unsupervised.....at least that is the way some anti-cadet senior only types read the regulation.

Cadets can't drive golf carts if there are any other cadets on board.

You missed the word "senior" in his sentence, he wasn't referring to a cadet, he was referring to an under 21 senior.

at least that is the way some anti-cadet senior only types read the regulation.

No, that is the way anyone with common sense and knowledge of adolescents acts.

[JeffDG]

Besides CAP DL, what else is there that 18-20 year old can't do?

Wear officer grade, otherwise, nothing I know of.

some of the Section Chief level ES quals have a 21 age

[Eclipse]

Besides CAP DL, what else is there that 18-20 year old can't do?

Wear officer grade, otherwise, nothing I know of.

some of the Section Chief level ES quals have a 21 age

Not an issue - I'd have to do the math, but I don't think you could go from slick sleeve to a section chief in
3 years, it would certainly be unusual.

[coudano]

Bottom line.

People under the age of 18 can only Join CAP as CADETS....that is to participate in the Cadet Program.

If Cadet X only does the minimum to avoid a 2b.....well there you go.
If Cadet X has no problem with being the youngest C/SrA follows the cadets promoted over him....including the 12 year old C/SSgt....then again...there you go.

Bottom line.   It is the cadet's money (or his parents anyway) if he wants to just throw it away....I got not problem taking it.  So long as he is not a hindrance to the rest of my program.

A 17 year old (any cadet, actually, but I make no exception for a 17 year old) dead headding as a C/AB *IS* a hindrance to the rest of my program.

If you are 17 and you want to join and fully participate, and both follow and set a positive example (advance your education and training rapidly, learn to be a leader, and seek out higher and higher levels of responsibility), then i'll allow it (and I have allowed 17 year olds under exactly those conditions).   If you just want to "be there", well, quite frankly, that's senior member work.

[Eclipse]

If you just want to "be there", well, quite frankly, that's senior member work.

Heh - nice.

There's also the issue that he's going to have to promote at >least< once because without the magic Curry, he can't do anything.

[JeffDG]

Besides CAP DL, what else is there that 18-20 year old can't do?

Wear officer grade, otherwise, nothing I know of.

some of the Section Chief level ES quals have a 21 age

Not an issue - I'd have to do the math, but I don't think you could go from slick sleeve to a section chief in
3 years, it would certainly be unusual.

I wasn't 18 when I joined, but i went from newb to IC in that time frame.  But then again, life experience counts for a lot when progressing to the higher levels.

Logistics Section Chief (21 minimum age) has only MSA as a prerequisite.  Same for FASC.

[Eclipse]

Logistics Section Chief (21 minimum age) has only MSA as a prerequisite.  Same for FASC.

Fair enough, but not likely to be something the average Sierra-Hotel 18 year old is going to gravitate towards anyway.

[RTFB]

He should look elsewhere to spend his volunteer time.  This will save everyone a lot of trouble.

This attitude is poison to Senior Members as well.  Best to send him on his way.

Poison?  Just because someone sees through the pomp-and-circumstance and wants to focus on the public service component of CAP does not make him poisonous.  I've known many SMs with zero desire to wear anything but the golf shirt, do anything but the bare minimum professional development, or hold any staff positions or rank.  They were invaluable as CFIs, check pilots, and other highly skilled professionals without whom certain cadets would not have earned their PPL, hundreds of hours of actual missions and o-rides would not have been flown, and dozens of MP/MO/MS/AP trainees would not have gotten qualified.  Some even took the initiative to get entirely new operational missions on the books in support of USAF units/bases.  Oh, and they also made significant financial contributions to the squadron and group out of their own pockets, which enabled many other members to benefit from new equipment and services.  But I guess it really wasn't that much, considering the average pension of a retired O-6 or O-7. 

[tsrup]

^^Then they do not understand what it is to be a part of CAP if they do not wish to be a part of the so called "pomp and circumstance".

All regulations should be followed, and just participating in the bare minimum or a small portion of the program should not be a crutch upon which to bare your volunteerism. 

There are multiple opportunities to offer the bear minimum, and CAP has delineated guidelines of what that is, and here's the shocker: The golf shirt isn't it.

If they want to wear whatever they want and fly airplanes, there is a program out there for them. /deadequine

[RTFB]

There are multiple opportunities to offer the bear minimum, and CAP has delineated guidelines of what that is, and here's the shocker: The golf shirt isn't it.

Huh?  I don't understand this sentence.  Explain to me how SMs are required to own any uniform other than the golf shirt combo (excluding attendance at a specific school/activity that specifies a different uniform).  Please point me to the specific regulation; or, if it isn't explicitly stated in the regs, use sound reasoning to lead me to your conclusion.

[Eclipse]

There are multiple opportunities to offer the bear minimum, and CAP has delineated guidelines of what that is, and here's the shocker: The golf shirt isn't it.

Huh?  I don't understand this sentence.  Explain to me how SMs are required to own any uniform other than the golf shirt combo (excluding attendance at a specific school/activity that specifies a different uniform).  Please point me to the specific regulation; or, if it isn't explicitly stated in the regs, use sound reasoning to lead me to your conclusion.

The golf shirt is not the minimum basic uniform, the blues or the whites are.

CAPM 39-1 Page 8
"1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.

b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt;
gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP
nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve."

[Майор Хаткевич]

Anyone else smell that? Like someone got burned or something.

[a2capt]

Anyone else smell that? Like someone got burned or something.

Oh, no. There will be some snappy, railing, put down response to it. Worry not.

[Garibaldi]

Anyone else smell that? Like someone got burned or something.

I believe the phrase you are looking for is "ooooo....sick burn."

[RogueLeader]

Anyone else smell that? Like someone got burned or something.

I believe the phrase you are looking for is "ooooo....sick burn."

All I smell is overcooked troll.

[Luis R. Ramos]

And the ubiquitous smell coming from the ever-present poor equine that has received too many sticks after it stopped moving from old age...

Flyer

[Alaric]

There are multiple opportunities to offer the bear minimum, and CAP has delineated guidelines of what that is, and here's the shocker: The golf shirt isn't it.

Huh?  I don't understand this sentence.  Explain to me how SMs are required to own any uniform other than the golf shirt combo (excluding attendance at a specific school/activity that specifies a different uniform).  Please point me to the specific regulation; or, if it isn't explicitly stated in the regs, use sound reasoning to lead me to your conclusion.

The golf shirt is not the minimum basic uniform, the blues or the whites are.

CAPM 39-1 Page 8
"1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.

b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt;
gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP
nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve."

This is one of the things that should be made clear to people as before they join, yes it's a volunteer organization, but it has requirements and members are expected to follow them.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Agreed, but how will it happen?

I have heard some squadron commanders propagating the polo shirt myth when telling prospective new member about the uniform... as they sign the membership application.

Flyer

[Critical AOA]

Yes CAPM 39-1 is pretty clear. While members are required to equip themselves with one of the listed basic uniforms, when are they required to wear it?  If a SM attends his squadron meetings regularly, flies regularly, attends SAREXs , does missions and performs other duties when tasked  and has only worn the golf shirt and the flight suit when doing all of these, what purpose does the white shirt hanging in the back of his closet serve?  Yes, he has to buy it but if no one in his chain of command makes it the required uniform at an activity he attends, it becomes a moot issue and a waste of the member's money.  So then, what purpose does it serve?  Hopefully the rewrite of 39-1 will do away with this requirement.  There is no real CAP mission where the golf shirt or flight suit will not meet the missions goals and objectives. 

[lordmonar]

What purpose does having the required uniform serve?

On that one time a year when the squadron commander says "we should all be wearing the same type of uniform."

Same reason why every AD enlisted maintenance airman is supposed to maintain a full service dress....even if he only wears it once or twice a year (if that much).  Or why AD officers are required to maintain mess dress.

Wear what is appropriate for your daily CAP work....but maintain the basic minimum uniform.....because it is required.

End of story.

And no....the rewrite of 39-1 will not drop the requirement.

[Critical AOA]

Yes, I understand that it is required.  That is why I have a white aviator shirt in my closet. I am in compliance.  Yet all that I have ever worn is the golf shirt and flight suit.  They get the job done.  On your hypothetical one day a year that a commander wants to make an arbitrary decision that he wants everyone to wear the same uniform, which uniform would he so designate to be worn?    Would it be the blues or the whites?  As they both meet the requirement of 39-1 of the basic uniform and a member must have one or the other but is not required to have both; not all members would be in the same uniform anyway.  Get it?  So again, what productive purpose does it serve?  The logical and intelligent answer is none.   

And what AD does is irrelevant.  We are not AD military or even reserve or even national guard.  We are civilians.

[Walkman]

Our SMS are on both sides of the corporate/AF style uniform wear. We mostly wear polos or BDUs for the first three weeks. The 4th week is Blues week and for the most part, we all wear either blues or whites. We also try to be in blues or whites for special occasions like Mitchell awards. So in our unit at least, SMs will wear their "basic required" uniform at least once a month.

[lordmonar]

Yes, I understand that it is required.  That is why I have a white aviator shirt in my closet. I am in compliance.  Yet all that I have ever worn is the golf shirt and flight suit.  They get the job done.  On your hypothetical one day a year that a commander wants to make an arbitrary decision that he wants everyone to wear the same uniform, which uniform would he so designate to be worn?    Would it be the blues or the whites?  As they both meet the requirement of 39-1 of the basic uniform and a member must have one or the other but is not required to have both; not all members would be in the same uniform anyway.  Get it?  So again, what productive purpose does it serve?  The logical and intelligent answer is none.   

And what AD does is irrelevant.  We are not AD military or even reserve or even national guard.  We are civilians.

Well.....now you are making a different argument.

AD or civilians.....makes no difference.   Want to join get a USAF short sleeve uniform or White Aviator combo.......or don't join.

The USAF vs Corp uniform argument is something completely different.....The point is that we all must maintain a basic uniform combo......so IF we ever were told to be (almost) the same we could be.  That is the purpose of the basic uniform requirement.

As you said before.......anything that can be done in the Polo shirt can be done in the required basic uniform.....so it is your choice to wear another uniform and maintain a "useless" uniform......not CAP's.