Why so many homeschoolers?

[cadetesman]

Why are there so many homeschoolers in CAP?

It seems as if myself and the others that go to traditional school are in the minority. Anyone have statistics on this?

But really, anyone have any idea why?

Note: I have nothing against them, just curious.

[Extremepredjudice]

I guess cause most school kids go to JROTC

[lordmonar]

Homeschooler organisers are always looking for group acitivities for their students.

The group socialization has always been the one problem with homeschoolers.  So they look for good groups for their students to join where they get to work and play with other kids their age.

CAP is a good choice for that.

[PHall]

Many home school organizations recommend CAP as a socialization activity. Which is just one reason we seem to see so many home schooled cadets.

[jimmydeanno]

I've found that parents of home-schooled kids are looking for a few things:

1) Social Interaction
2) Something unique and relatively "low-cost."
3) Many home-school kids can get school credit for the course work found in CAP (i.e. PT counts towards a Physical Education Credit, Completing AE modules counts as a Science Credit, etc).
4) Free supplemental educational materials.

And the list goes on.  Home schooled students don't have the full array of options that public school students do, so CAP is a good fit.  YMMV.

[Extremepredjudice]

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

[coudano]

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

Stupid high school drama is how much of the adult world works.
Knowing how to navigate it is not a disadvantage

[lordmonar]

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

Cool....but not all homeschoolers do.

[cadetesman]

All of this sounds reasonable....except relatively low cost.   

[a2capt]

CAP is actually listed as an option given to home schoolers at least  in California. Because they need to have extra-curicular activity, and the weekly meeting plus getting involved in other parts of the program provide opportunities for that interaction, plus the CAP Leadership and AE curriculum.

[Eclipse]

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

Not possible.

Socialization is not socializing any more than worming from home would compare to a corporate environment.

There are 100 intersections a day which occur in social situations whore people have no choice but to adapt.
Self-selecting from that environment makes it more comfortable,  but does not force the use and growth of skills needed in these types of environments.

Like it or not, the norm in most of the world is organized, group education, and people who "go" to work.  That may change,  but it will be a decades-long evolution.

That doesn't make it "better" or "worse" just that it "is".

[jimmydeanno]

All of this sounds reasonable....except relatively low cost.   

Compared to many high-school activities CAP is about as cheap as they get.

My neighbor's daughter had to come up with about $3k to be able to dance line for the year (competition fees, uniform fees, travel expenses, etc).

YMCA camps can run in the thousands of dollars per week.

The football players in this area end up having to run massive fundraising campaigns to offset their personal expenses to play.

Even if CAP cost a few hundred dollars per year, it's still, most likely, the most inexpensive thing a lot of families can find - especially in terms of return on investment.

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

It may be fine for you, but many home school families have difficulty finding a diverse range of activities that their kids can do with a group of same aged youth.  Many home schooled students I've had join my units have been extremely socially awkward, because they spent most of their time alone, only interacting with their own, socially awkward, families.

Children who are unable to interact socially usually are having these difficulties because they have not been given the opportunity to in the past.

Social interaction has to be one of the most important activities that your child can be involved in. It teaches them the rights and wrongs in their wider community, helps them to build relationships and teaches them how to cope in group situations.

[68w20]

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

Not possible.

Eclipse, based on my prior experience as a home-schooled Cadet, I think I can guess where Extremeprejudice is coming from (please correct me if I'm wrong EP).  This is one of the most common arguments against homeschooling at all levels.  Legislation banning homeschooling has been based on this, as well as misguided ideas and misconceptions concerning the nature of homeschooling.  Both here and abroad (Germany, for example), homeschooling has had a negative connotation attached to it based on assumptions that all homeschoolers are social dwarfs, religious fundamentalists, or simply bad parents that don't want their children to have a "real" education.

The reason that the OP reacted so vehemently, and the reason that your comment is out of line, is that these misconceptions lead to legitimate problems in the day-to-day lives of homeschoolers.  Your post (and others like it, such as Lordmonar's assumption that "not all homeschoolers do that") perpetuates the stereotypes to which I previously referred, and could detrimentally effect the interactions of Cadet leadership that will read it in a public forum. 

Socialization is not socializing any more than worming from home would compare to a corporate environment.

There are 100 intersections a day which occur in social situations whore people have no choice but to adapt.
Self-selecting from that environment makes it more comfortable,  but does not force the use and growth of skills needed in these types of environments.

What you're saying is true, however it's ridiculous to assume that homeschoolers do not seek out similar environments through which their students can achieve the same social experiences.  In addition, repeated social interaction does NOT in and of itself make one social adept.  It is essential in providing the mental "muscle memory" necessary to have meaningful social interaction, but the act itself is not the defining factor.  Socialization hasn't been a part of educational or even social theory for many years, so to assume that a group setting is THE factor necessary to making one socially adept is completely without scholarly foundation.   

Like it or not, the norm in most of the world is organized, group education, and people who "go" to work.  That may change,  but it will be a decades-long evolution.

That doesn't make it the most effective.  Just because everybody's doing it doesn't mean it's the right way.  Why was Alexander individually tutored by Aristotle?  And what about the founding fathers that were self-taught?

That doesn't make it "better" or "worse" just that it "is".

Valid.

One last point:
The posts in this thread have one overarching theme: that homeschoolers join CAP in order to socialize with others.  This is not the ONLY reason that homeschoolers join this program.  I joined because I was interested in the military (the same reason as my current C/CC who attended a private school) and looking for something to help pay for college.  One of my current homeschooling Cadets joined because she wants to be a pilot, and this program will help her to that end. 

The idea that all or even many homeschoolers have difficulty in finding social interactions for their students is absurd, and based on the assumption that anything not fitting the norm MUST be detrimental to all involved. 

[titanII]

I guess cause most school kids go to JROTC

At least where I'm from (it is probably different elsewhere), this isn't exactly true. I don't know of any schools in my area that offer any of the JROTC's. Heck, I'd never even heard of JROTC until I joined CAP Talk.

Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

I have never seen this "drama" you're talking about at my school. Granted, I do go to an all-guys private school, so it's a bit different 

[John Bryan]

1. Social Interaction - Not all kids are social butterflies...this goes for home school, public and private school. There are awkward kids everywhere. I don't think kids who don't go to school but attend church , CAP, 4H , work a part time job etc are any more or less social then those who do all that and go to school. If public school was always 100% great a socialization I don't think we would have the school violence and bullying issues we see across the country.

2. The SAT and ACT scores show it.....the number of cadets where I am from who are home schooled and starting college at 15 or 16 show....home school is as good or better then public school most of the time. Yes there are cases of kids being home schooled and not being taught but there are as many stories from failing public schools.

3. Home school community welcomes CAP. Many public schools don't. Some do not because they do not like the military. Others are so busy trying to get all the kids to pass standard tests that they don't have time for extra programs.

4. We should look at why do youth join CAP. I think we would see they join for many of the same reasons, no matter where they go to school.

[Nathan]

Eclipse, based on my prior experience as a home-schooled Cadet, I think I can guess where Extremeprejudice is coming from (please correct me if I'm wrong EP).  This is one of the most common arguments against homeschooling at all levels.  Legislation banning homeschooling has been based on this, as well as misguided ideas and misconceptions concerning the nature of homeschooling.  Both here and abroad (Germany, for example), homeschooling has had a negative connotation attached to it based on assumptions that all homeschoolers are social dwarfs, religious fundamentalists, or simply bad parents that don't want their children to have a "real" education.

The reason that the OP reacted so vehemently, and the reason that your comment is out of line, is that these misconceptions lead to legitimate problems in the day-to-day lives of homeschoolers.  Your post (and others like it, such as Lordmonar's assumption that "not all homeschoolers do that") perpetuates the stereotypes to which I previously referred, and could detrimentally effect the interactions of Cadet leadership that will read it in a public forum.

Eh, I think that's taking it a little far. I don't think that anyone here is intending to downright insult homeschooled cadets or perpetuate any stereotypes.

But I also think that, even if we were, the point isn't necessarily off the table for debate. In this case, it's not a completely unfounded stereotype, nor is the proposed mechanism out in left field. The notion that children are at higher risk of not being up-to-date socially is supported by studies. It's important to note that when I say "higher risk", it means exactly that. There will be many children who are socialized fine due to opportunities provided by the family for outside interaction, but compared to the regularly-schooled population, there are higher percentages of children with social difficulties in adult life.

I can provide the links to the articles, though I'm not sure you can access them unless you can get a college subscription. Nevertheless, my point isn't to delve into whether or not homeschooling is okay. But the fact is that these viewpoints DO have a basis in reality, and in an organization that seems to attract homeschoolers, we have a pretty close seat to see these types of characteristics for ourselves.

Also, keep in mind that when someone makes the assertion that CAP helps homeschooled kids socialize, the fact that YOU, a homeschooled cadet, have socialized fine does not itself defeat the argument. It would simply be said that you are proof that the program works. In my own experience, many of our homeschooled cadets join CAP having rarely, if ever been forced to interact with other people they didn't necessarily like or obey an authority figure outside of their own parents. Students who have been forced to be around annoying classmates and teachers their entire lives do not lack these experiences.

What you're saying is true, however it's ridiculous to assume that homeschoolers do not seek out similar environments through which their students can achieve the same social experiences.  In addition, repeated social interaction does NOT in and of itself make one social adept.  It is essential in providing the mental "muscle memory" necessary to have meaningful social interaction, but the act itself is not the defining factor.  Socialization hasn't been a part of educational or even social theory for many years, so to assume that a group setting is THE factor necessary to making one socially adept is completely without scholarly foundation.

Actually, we're not assuming that homeschoolers don't look for socialized interaction. We just got done saying that CAP is one of the ways many homeschoolers do this. Even in "social situations" provided by parents, there are not necessarily going to be situations where the child has to play with a group of people he doesn't necessarily like. The kid probably hasn't had to obey anyone other than his parents. The kid hasn't necessarily had to realize that most learning isn't going to happen one-on-one, and has to be willing to absorb information without necessarily being able to ask a question and have someone work with him/her until the problem is solved.

You see what I mean? I don't believe (I haven't seen, personally) any zombie homeschoolers that show up with absolutely zero ability to interact with people. They can interact fine, but whereas regularly-schooled cadets have already had to deal with all of the above situations for years due to the school system, a homeschooler can, and in many cases does, miss even a few opportunities to interact in the ways described above. You're right that it isn't just muscle memory, but the parts that many homeschoolers don't pick up includes traits that are learned and perfected, rather than memorized.

That doesn't make it the most effective.  Just because everybody's doing it doesn't mean it's the right way.  Why was Alexander individually tutored by Aristotle?  And what about the founding fathers that were self-taught?

Well, see, that's the problem that we're saying is irrelevant to this conversation. CAP is largely a social organization that requires conformity to the norm. Whether or not it's the best way of doing things isn't what is being discussed. What's being asserted is that homeschoolers aren't necessarily prepared to deal as easily with that kind of an organization as are other students. Right or wrong, the environment is there, and so when we say that homeschoolers seem to be correlated with requiring a little bit more learning and experience to catch up with his or her peers socially, that's just a comparison, not a moral assertion.

The posts in this thread have one overarching theme: that homeschoolers join CAP in order to socialize with others.  This is not the ONLY reason that homeschoolers join this program.  I joined because I was interested in the military (the same reason as my current C/CC who attended a private school) and looking for something to help pay for college.  One of my current homeschooling Cadets joined because she wants to be a pilot, and this program will help her to that end. 

The idea that all or even many homeschoolers have difficulty in finding social interactions for their students is absurd, and based on the assumption that anything not fitting the norm MUST be detrimental to all involved.

I'm not really sure that anyone actually made the assertion that homeschoolers are primarily motivated by the desire to socialize. Jimmydeano even has it as a bullet on a list of reasons that homeschoolers join. Regularly-schooled children certainly join to socialize as well, but they also have many of these opportunities presented (and compelled) by the school system every single day of their lives. So when we list it as a significantly more important factor in the motivations behind many homeschool recruits, that's the only reason why.

And again, remember that many of the people contributing to this topic, myself included, have been working in the cadet programs for quite a long time. These trend never even crossed my mind until I became a cadet leader and noticed it myself (without the influence of any apparent stereotype). It's not a bad thing or a reason to treat homeschooled cadets any differently, nor is it a moral judgement passed on the homeschool system itself. It's simply a trend that leaders notice and tend to adapt for, so that we can ensure that every cadet, homeschooled or not, can get the most out of the program.

[Eclipse]

Here's the point about social interaction.

Some is voluntary, some is involuntary.

Formalized education (school), and most corporate work environments, not to mention most of life, are involuntary social environments.
You have little control over them or the other people involved, you cannot easily self-select out, and faux pas are generally "punished" either
directly or indirectly.

CAP, 4H, team sports, etc., are voluntary social situations, and for the most part opposite 180-off from the above, especially
in that you don't have to join, or you can quit  if somebody is "touching your stuff".

Far too many parents spend far too much time avoiding the involuntary and only pointing their kids at the places where they
are likely to excel with little interpersonal conflict, then when the "real" world hands them a reality sandwich, they have no
idea how to deal.  A lot of kids today are held together by tissue paper and rubber bands, folding at the first insinuation they
are not a beautiful or unique snowflake.

Involuntary social situations like formalized educational institutions force the interactions in a more Darwinian sense, just like the "real"
world will, whether mom and dad like it or not.

As to bullying, it's a real phenomenon, but I don't believe it is any more prevalent now than when I was school age, or my dad, or his dad.
The whole situation is primarily a product of media over-hype, and the "culture of cause", intersected by unnecessary, poorly understood
technology that should not be in the hands of children.  Seriously, 8 year olds need cell phones?

I also think is that today's parent's are fundamentally disconnected and more reliant on systems and outsiders to raise their kids, the result being
that they seek control wherever they can find it, even if that control is ultimately either trivial or detrimental to their child's development.

And with all that text, I'm not going to even try to insinuate that a lot of school systems are not just basically warehouses, and I know there is
a good argument in a lot of cases that home schooling is the only acceptable alternative, but I simply do not believe that a child
at home with mom and dad all day, who goes to outside activities in the evenings and weekends, will get the same socialization as
children who attend traditional schools and have to interact with peers all day.

[Spaceman3750]

A recent Pew Center study suggested that 1 in 5 teens are bullied.

I have only met one homeschooled person who was not socially awkward, and that was my little brother. I was homeschooled for 5 years and being socially awkward is still something I deal with today.

[Eclipse]

A recent Pew Center study suggested that 1 in 5 teens are bullied.

Part of that is in how you define bullying, which these days seems to include every time someone calls you "Mr. Poopy Pants".
Just as in the same sense that there are no peanuts on airplanes "in case", and every kid who has "issues" now has an
ASD, now much of normal kid behavior is "bullying".

And what the "culture of cause^®" seems to miss is that when you move the line and "everything is something", it actually
makes that "something" more "common", and engenders "cause fatigue^®" in the very people they are trying to educate,
ultimately to the disservice of those who really need help.

"culture of cause^®" and "cause fatigue^®" are registered trademarks of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved. Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!

[Spaceman3750]

A recent Pew Center study suggested that 1 in 5 teens are bullied.

Part of that is in how you define bullying, which these days seems to include every time someone calls you "Mr. Poopy Pants".

Well, verbal bullying has proven to be a big, high-profile issue. Just look at the rash of teen suicides over the past few years due to cyber bullying.

[Eclipse]

A recent Pew Center study suggested that 1 in 5 teens are bullied.

Part of that is in how you define bullying, which these days seems to include every time someone calls you "Mr. Poopy Pants".

Well, verbal bullying has proven to be a big, high-profile issue. Just look at the rash of teen suicides over the past few years due to cyber bullying.

One is too many, but it's not a "rash", it's just "new" - teenagers are sensitive, and the media blows that way out of proportion.  In the majority of cases you have a troubled young person with serious issues who has been basically ignored by the parents and school, someone starts harassing them
on Facebook, and then the entirety of the issue is blamed on the social nonsense.

[68w20]

A recent Pew Center study suggested that 1 in 5 teens are bullied.

Part of that is in how you define bullying, which these days seems to include every time someone calls you "Mr. Poopy Pants".

Well, verbal bullying has proven to be a big, high-profile issue. Just look at the rash of teen suicides over the past few years due to cyber bullying.

One is too many, but it's not a "rash", it's just "new" - teenagers are sensitive, and the media blows that way out of proportion.  In the majority of cases you have a troubled young person with serious issues who has been basically ignored by the parents and school, someone starts harassing them
on Facebook, and then the entirety of the issue is blamed on the social nonsense.

Not to downplay what is a serious issue for some, but I have to agree with Eclipse that cyber bullying is a social trouble for some that has been hijacked and blown out of proportion by the media.  While it may affect some strongly, most kids shrug it off and move on with their lives (speaking from personal experience).  I've always thought that this comic sums it up pretty well (be advised, it contains mid-heavy level profanity for those of you who are offended by such things)

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=active&biw=1280&bih=611&tbm=isch&tbnid=OsEE-u0osbNjoM:&imgrefurl=http://endlessorigami.com/2011/11/29/cyber-bullying/&docid=IBsFI0d3XL0_8M&imgurl=http://endlessorigami.com/comics/2011-11-29-cyber_bullying.png&w=649&h=1228&ei=-riWT-evIYfA6AGf1dSxDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=475&vpy=99&dur=413&hovh=304&hovw=160&tx=69&ty=179&sig=112613031603312005399&page=1&tbnh=132&tbnw=70&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:71

That being said, there are individuals for whom this is a legitimate issue; however I firmly believe that those issues arise from (as alluded to by Eclipse) a marked lack of parental involvement in their children's lives.  You cannot take a demographic which is known for being relatively harsh to each other (teens/young adults), put them in an environment which GUARANTEES a certain level of anonymity(the interwebs), and expect them to NOT say or do hurtful things.   

[Spaceman3750]

http://pewinternet.org/Reports/2011/Teens-and-social-media.aspx

[Flying Pig]

My kids were homeschooled for years.  Ive met just as many socially awkward kids in public school as I have met in any of my kids homeschool groups.  We have kids in our group who are juniors seniors in high school (as far as homeschool goes) and are also taking course at the local comunity college.  One girl is almost done with her AA and she hasnt even finished HS yet.  Ive never been called to a home school group to seize drugs or break up a gang fight.
When I was a SqCC a very large number of the cadets were home schooled.  They were usually the most polite and excelled in CAP.  They are all involved in multiple sports.  My son managed to place 4th in central CA in his age group for the breast stroke.  And that isnt a homoeschool swim club, finals had probably 800+ swimmers. 
A "normal" home schooled kid cant be lumped into the same group as a kid who is homeschooled because of emotional or legal issues.  Thats a whole different world. 
As far as socialization?  Please.  Of the probably 30+ kids in the local group were the funnest kids to hang out with.  Many have gone on you well known universities and received scholarships.  There are homeschooling parents who are lazy and sit their kids in front of the TV all day and there are parents who go to great lengths to get their kids pretty good educations and spend thousands of dollars a year to do it.  No different than parents who use the public school system as a day car for 8hrs a day and doesnt know where their kids homeroom is.

CAP is a great organization for hoomeschooling kids.  What better way to motivate your cadet than to have CAP count towards your graduation!

[Nathan]

What better way to motivate your cadet than to have CAP count towards your graduation!

Requiring CAP participation for graduation isn't motivational or an example of volunteerism...

[68w20]

... count towards your graduation!

When did the OP say require?

[Flying Pig]

I didnt say require.  But when your kid is in CAP, and you can use that participation towards graduating then AWESOME!  No diffferent the AFJROTC counting towards graduation in High School.

[Nathan]

... count towards your graduation!

When did the OP say require?

I've done seen it happen. There was a squadron near mine that had many cadets who were homeschoolers, and I heard about two confirmed cases where the parents used CAP study time to count toward science credit, even when that studying went toward leadership tests. This was required studying by them, and they immediately left CAP after they were done with school.

[68w20]

... count towards your graduation!

When did the OP say require?

I've done seen it happen. There was a squadron near mine that had many cadets who were homeschoolers, and I heard about two confirmed cases where the parents used CAP study time to count toward science credit, even when that studying went toward leadership tests. This was required studying by them, and they immediately left CAP after they were done with school.

I see nothing wrong with that situation.  I know plenty of former Cadets that were in the program throughout high school and then quit after for one reason or another.  How many Cadets have you had that used participation to pad their resumes for college/service academy applications and then left the program after they were accepted?  How is that any different than using CAP AE and Leadership modules to count towards graduation?

[Eclipse]

^ Unfortunate but not unusual.

[Nathan]

I see nothing wrong with that situation.  I know plenty of former Cadets that were in the program throughout high school and then quit after for one reason or another.  How many Cadets have you had that used participation to pad their resumes for college/service academy applications and then left the program after they were accepted?  How is that any different than using CAP AE and Leadership modules to count towards graduation?

The problem is that, out of the many different classes I have taught and programs I have helped create, I have never once attempted to craft a program that can match up to a high-school level science class. Ever.

So when I get told that parents are using the 3 hours a week I'm responsible for as "science credit" or to "count toward school graduation", I'm left wondering why they think that my program is good enough to satisfy that requirement when I myself do not. I think that I have run a pretty successful program designed to meet CAP's needs, and have seen squadrons in worse shape than my own in meeting these criteria. I believe I do good work and teach the cadets a lot of good skills. But enough to count as part of a formal education in the sciences? I have NEVER tried to teach an aerospace class with the belief that a student can actually claim a junior high or high school-level understanding of the physics behind how a wing works.

And I rather resent being placed with those kinds of responsibilities by parents against my will. I do not feel that I am qualified to teach high-school level science material, and do not aim to do so. I aim to meet the requirements set by Civil Air Patrol. The program was not designed to meet the standards of a high school science class.

[68w20]

I see nothing wrong with that situation.  I know plenty of former Cadets that were in the program throughout high school and then quit after for one reason or another.  How many Cadets have you had that used participation to pad their resumes for college/service academy applications and then left the program after they were accepted?  How is that any different than using CAP AE and Leadership modules to count towards graduation?

The problem is that, out of the many different classes I have taught and programs I have helped create, I have never once attempted to craft a program that can match up to a high-school level science class. Ever.

So when I get told that parents are using the 3 hours a week I'm responsible for as "science credit" or to "count toward school graduation", I'm left wondering why they think that my program is good enough to satisfy that requirement when I myself do not. I think that I have run a pretty successful program designed to meet CAP's needs, and have seen squadrons in worse shape than my own in meeting these criteria. I believe I do good work and teach the cadets a lot of good skills. But enough to count as part of a formal education in the sciences? I have NEVER tried to teach an aerospace class with the belief that a student can actually claim a junior high or high school-level understanding of the physics behind how a wing works.

And I rather resent being placed with those kinds of responsibilities by parents against my will. I do not feel that I am qualified to teach high-school level science material, and do not aim to do so. I aim to meet the requirements set by Civil Air Patrol. The program was not designed to meet the standards of a high school science class.

I get where you're coming from, but let's take a look at what National says about our AE program:

http://www.capmembers.com/aerospace_education/aerospace-education-introduction/

I may be reading too much into it, but it seems to me that Aerospace Dimensions was specifically designed to provide a middle school-level understanding of aerospace topics.  National's AE page specifically recommends its curriculum for homeschoolers.  You are not required to teach a secondary level science class.  You are, however, required to supervise the administration of the AE program; a program which National designed for middle schoolers.  Do you understand why homeschoolers would see this curriculum as an opportunity to provide one of the required science credits?

[Nathan]

What I see is the term "middle-school level" being used to describe the complexity of the materials. Not that the materials or the program itself provides a middle-school level of education.

Sort of like when I say that the book "Captain Underpants" is a first-grade reading level, I'm not advocating that first graders should read the book to qualify for second grade, but rather that children below first grade will probably struggle with it.

Not only that, but notice how much emphasis is being put on TEACHERS using the material. I am not a school-level teacher. I do not claim to be a teacher in that sense of the term. Teachers are generally supposed to have a greater understanding of the material than the text alone can provide, and I cannot claim this, since my understanding of the material is based entirely off what the modules provide. I have no doubt that a teacher could teach an aerospace class to a middle-school expectation because they are a TEACHER. But there is no requirement for any member of CAP serving in the cadet programs to be a qualified teacher.

Also remember that I have not been vetted by any academic institution. Even if I had a perfectly credible curriculum for a middle school science credit (which I don't), the fact is that I still don't have to answer to anyone outside of CAP if I fail to meet those standards. I don't have to prove that I know what I'm talking about, nor can I be held responsible if the homeschooled student fails a standardized test because I told him the sun revolved around the Earth. I am simply not subject to anyone's scrutiny when you decide to trust ME to teach your children science to the level of a middle or high school student.

Are you seeing the problems I have with the concept?

EDIT: clarification

[Flying Pig]

But then you have someone like me who used to teach to a homeschool group and Im a dual rated CFI.  Im pretty comfortable teaching aerodynamics to the point of a middle school  level.  Have you ever been part of setting up an accredited home school ciriculum?  Meaning that when you graduate 12th grade you actually have a recognized HS diploma?  I know homeschool kids who have gone on to military academies, joined the military, you name it. You cant get away with teaching CAP in place of a science class 7th grade- 12th.  Doesnt work that way.  If your just a parent keeping your kid home and teaching them off the cuff, your not going to have a recognized HS grad diploma.  Youd probably have to take the GED.  We can go back and forth all day with experiences.  Any level of experiences of failures in homeschool, I can point to the exact same failures and worse in public education. In homeschooling, its all up the dedication level of the parents. If mom and dad are lazy then it will reflect.  If mom and dad are solid then it will reflect as well.   

[Spaceman3750]

There are some commercial programs which are attached to an accredited private HS offering a high school diploma at completion. A Beka Book offers one such program with graduation through Pensacola Christian Academy.

[68w20]

Have you ever been part of setting up an accredited home school ciriculum?  Meaning that when you graduate 12th grade you actually have a recognized HS diploma?  I know homeschool kids who have gone on to military academies, joined the military, you name it. You cant get away with teaching CAP in place of a science class 7th grade- 12th.  Doesnt work that way.  If your just a parent keeping your kid home and teaching them off the cuff, your not going to have a recognized HS grad diploma.  Youd probably have to take the GED.

While your point is received, this section isn't entirely true.  One of the simultaneous blessings and curses of homeschooling in the U.S. is that it varies by state.  For example, Illinois (where I was homeschooled) recognizes homeschools as private schools.  This meant that my brother and I (my sister was also homeschooled for the majority of her education, however she recently chose to attend a local private school and will complete her diploma there) were both awarded recognized HS diplomas upon graduation.  In my brother's case, this diploma was sufficient for enlistment.  I had completed an AGE before enlisting, so I wasn't required to present a diploma in order to enlist.

[Flying Pig]

What I thought I conveyed was that the programs are out there. You just have to be smart enough (as a parent) to do it that way.  Its expensive adn takes a lot of work.

[commando1]

2. The SAT and ACT scores show it.....the number of cadets where I am from who are home schooled and starting college at 15 or 16 show....home school is as good or better then public school most of the time. Yes there are cases of kids being home schooled and not being taught but there are as many stories from failing public schools.

I'm one of those guys...I graduated at 16
Edit: Clarification

[Extremepredjudice]

2. The SAT and ACT scores show it.....the number of cadets where I am from who are home schooled and starting college at 15 or 16 show....home school is as good or better then public school most of the time. Yes there are cases of kids being home schooled and not being taught but there are as many stories from failing public schools.

I'm one of those guys...I graduated at 16
Edit: Clarification

I graduate at 18 with my A.A. and half my A.S.

[Flying Pig]

OK, fine your 18, have two degrees, yada yada yada......But how are your social skills?   

Thats what my kids were always asked.  "Dont you miss having friends?"  Ummm....yeah.  Because we keep them locked in a closet!  Both of my kids, 13 and 11 can walk into just about any group and make friends, arent the slightest bit shy and we as parents often get compliments about how polite they are.  My son does my neighbors yard for $10 a week because HIS 13 yr old wont get off the couch because hes a freakin clown.  Not even for the same $10.

My biggest hassle with my son is getting him to brush his teeth, and keepnig my daughter from wearing mis matched socks and painting her finger nails with Sharpies!  Oh the horror!

[Major Carrales]

A few comments, I am a public school teacher and I sometimes disagree with the "warehouse" or "factory" style of education our nation utilized.  We have all this about "span of control"  yet we have classes of over 40 in some schools to one teacher and then blame the teacher for some student's failure even when the issues are coming from a home or community environment.

That said, it should be pointed out that schools are institutes of learning, not socialization.  Too many people see a school as a place where social interation comes first and the education second.  We see this in these schools where things like cheerleading, football and band dominate over the academics.  It becomes more about the "frills" than about hitting the books.

School is about teaching writing, reading, mathematics, social studies and science...not how to live in the world.  That latter is the job of parents and the community.  Too many have already passed the buck on this to the schools...and then complain that we are not addressing this.   When a parent comes to a school, is yelled at by their child and then that parent calls for a principal for authority (this has happened many times), then there is something wrong with this picture.

Many school cultures, too, are inflitrated by gangs and a host of other influences that teachers and adminstrators have no real recourse to change.

Homeschooled children, also, are not in a vacuum.  They can and do have friends and relationships outside the family.  Any family sequestering their child from society is depriving them of social interaction.  You don't need a school to have friends.

It is not an "either or" thing, it is simple.  The EDUCATION SYSTEM of a nation is not limited and separate from the SCHOOL SYSTEM.  An EDUCATION SYSTEM is the sum off all learning from a parent teaching a student to walk to a person in a Graduate School class.  That people find a rivalry between homeschool, public school and private school shows me that there are issues that need to be addressed.

[Extremepredjudice]

Very good. I am right now, sitting in a room with about 15 people in it, at least 10 are my friends. I make tons of friends at my college. I know half the campus.

[Flying Pig]

yeah...but your probably all socially awkward so you all seem normal to yourselves

[Eclipse]

Very good. I am right now, sitting in a room with about 15 people in it, at least 10 are my friends. I make tons of friends at my college. I know half the campus.

They just emailed us and said they'd prefer if you left quietly, and take your ketchup sandwiches with you!

[Major Carrales]

yeah...but your probably all socially awkward so you all seem normal to yourselves

If they were all "socially akward" then they would be "the norm" and you the "odd man out." 

Your comment came across as very uncalled for...in fact, this is a real prejudice here it would seem.   I am a bit taken back and will have to ask you to apologize or otherwise qualify these statement.

[Major Carrales]

Very good. I am right now, sitting in a room with about 15 people in it, at least 10 are my friends. I make tons of friends at my college. I know half the campus.

They just emailed us and said they'd prefer if you left quietly, and take your ketchup sandwiches with you!

You too...that is a bit uncalled for.  I am suprised.

[FlyTiger77]

Very good. I am right now, sitting in a room with about 15 people in it, at least 10 are my friends. I make tons of friends at my college. I know half the campus.

They just emailed us and said they'd prefer if you left quietly, and take your ketchup sandwiches with you!

You too...that is a bit uncalled for.  I am suprised.

I read them as jokes, but I could have been mistaken.

[Major Carrales]

Very good. I am right now, sitting in a room with about 15 people in it, at least 10 are my friends. I make tons of friends at my college. I know half the campus.

They just emailed us and said they'd prefer if you left quietly, and take your ketchup sandwiches with you!

You too...that is a bit uncalled for.  I am suprised.

I read them as jokes, but I could have been mistaken.

Could be jokes....but there was no emoticon behind them.  I don't expect Eclipse to usually participate in a "dog pile."

[commando1]

I think, (my first mistake right  ), getting back to the OP's question, that CAP has a lot of homeschooled kids because its an amazing program. Its relatively cheap, teaches great life skills, and prepares for a possible future in the military. Homeschoolers don't need defending because it was the original way to learn. We were given a lot of opportunities to excel. Some capitalize on those, and some don't. I could care less what the previous post was intending, whether serious or in jesting. We are here. We aren't going anywhere. Come to terms with that. 

[johnnyb47]

I found a pretty cool article on home-school.com about CAP;
http://www.home-school.com/Articles/how-to-become-a-civil-air-patrol-cadet.html

What the CAP Can Do for You

It may sound as though the CAP Cadet program is all work and no play. While it is true that the cadets put in a lot of hard work, they also have a lot of fun. Cadets learn model rocketry, take field trips to aerospace museums, and go on weekend encampments (see my son Scott's article on page 21). Cadets may fly aboard military aircraft as part of the flight orientation program. They may also attend week-long encampments during the summer, learning such skills as ground search and rescue.

Of particular interest to homeschoolers is the emphasis placed on academic excellence, especially in the areas of math and science. The aerospace program is an outstanding supplement to math and science curricula, allowing students to practically apply what they have learned. Cadets are taught by qualified CAP members and are given the opportunity to meet and learn from professional military personnel. The CAP Cadet Program stresses high moral standards and integrity among its members and safety in its flight orientation program.

Also noteworthy is the edge CAP membership gives cadets in pursuing future career goals. Civil Air Patrol Cadets who choose to serve in the military or attend a service academy after high school have an advantage over their peers. Currently, those cadets who enlist in the Air Force may join as Airmen First Class (E-3) rather than Airmen Basic (E-1). For those who hope to attend one of the service academies, it is significant that 8 to 10 percent of the US Air Force Academy class is typically made up of former CAP Cadets.

EDIT:
Here's another more recent example:
http://www.home-school.com/Articles/civil-air-patrol-wants-you.html
EDIT 2:
Here's one of our own articles. Interesting that CAP membership and activities was able to be applied as aerospace science credit in High School.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CopyofHomeschooledCadets_3C5DE2D95B_94FBCCA84E95D.pdf

[Extremepredjudice]

yeah...but your probably all socially awkward so you all seem normal to yourselves

Ok, but they are all college students, and all of them are from public school... SOOOO, yeah.

[Perez]

Either you're able to pick up on social cues and can function in public, or you can't. There is no "homeschool versus public school" battle. In addition to being homeschooled, I have attended private and public schools. While it could be easier to get away with being socially awkward as at home, there is no guarantee that this will happen. Personally, I started volunteering at my local library as soon as I could, and I've always enjoyed holding real conversations with adults. As others have stated, there are just as many socially awkward kids in the public school system as opposed to those being homeschooled. There is really no set ratio, and it would be immature to assume otherwise.

[Eclipse]

Either you're able to pick up on social cues and can function in public, or you can't.

That's not how it works.  Muscles not used are never developed.  Pointing to other children who have issues
doesn't counter that point.  Mom, dad, family, and other factors are involved as well.

Bottom line, you can't learn to swim by reading about it.

[Flying Pig]

yeah...but your probably all socially awkward so you all seem normal to yourselves

If they were all "socially akward" then they would be "the norm" and you the "odd man out." 

Your comment came across as very uncalled for...in fact, this is a real prejudice here it would seem.   I am a bit taken back and will have to ask you to apologize or otherwise qualify these statement.

Uh dude, take a step back a minute and read the above posts and youll see it was a joke between myself and Extreme.  He is homeschooled and so are my kids.  Comments were made earlier that homeschooled kids can be socially awkward.  A little situational awareness goes along way before you assume Im bashing a cadet for being homeschooled.  And if you read further, you would find that I came to the defense of homeschooled kids being labled as having no social skills by using my kids as examples fo the opposite.  I thought it was pretty obvious.  Maybe not.

[Eclipse]

Same goes for me...thankfully extreme's sarcasm indicator is pretty good...

[Extremepredjudice]

Same goes for me...thankfully extreme's sarcasm indicator is pretty good...

No it isn't؟

[SarDragon]

I was a social disaster well into my 20s. I was the product of public schools and a military dependent life. Making new friends was never easy, and having to do it every two or three years didn't make it any easier. I went to school in six different school districts, in four states, and two countries. And that was just through 6th grade.

When I became a single parent (girls, 5, 3, 3), I had friends who were willing to be very direct with me and tell me that I was screwing up. I'm sure it was more for the girls' benefit than mine, but we all came out on the winning side.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'll answer the OP, and then what came after.

To OP: Most of the Cadets in my area were public school, and FEW were home schooled. Just depends on your area. I'm betting more rural areas have even higher rates of home schooling.

Now, as to the rest of the topic. I've run into MANY socially awkward home school students. I've run into MANY socially awkward public school students.

I can't really make a judgement on whether one is better than the other, but I personally plan on sending my future children to a public school. I also plan to check that they are learning, but I don't want to be involved in their education as directly as home schooling.

I went to public school. I made my parents back off from "overseeing" me around the age of 13-14. I did just fine on my own. I enjoyed some subjects, hated others. My parents have no idea what I've been doing on College for the last 4 years either. It's just the best way for me to learn.

OTHERS, on the other hand NEED parent oversight. Some won't admit their issues when they struggle. Others just won't do the work otherwise. We're all different. For some Public Schooling works - especially in a "good" school. For others home schooling is the way to go, but unfortunately a lot of that has been "tainted" by the extremists who teach what they believe as opposed to what children need to learn.

Then again, if the history text books keep rolling the way they have been, I just may need to teach my kids history from MY books, and insist on them taking the AP courses.

[titanII]

insist on them taking the AP courses.

I would absolutely recommend you do. I've never learned as much as I have in the AP classes I've taken. Not to mention I've also earned some college credits, depending upon which college I end up attending.

[Майор Хаткевич]

insist on them taking the AP courses.

I would absolutely recommend you do. I've never learned as much as I have in the AP classes I've taken. Not to mention I've also earned some college credits, depending upon which college I end up attending.

I knocked off 1/3 of a school year by taking two AP History courses. Not a bad deal when 1/3 of a year = $10,000.

Had I stayed for my Senior year, I could have entered college with Sophomore/close to Junior status.

[titanII]

I knocked off 1/3 of a school year by taking two AP History courses. Not a bad deal when 1/3 of a year = $10,000.
Had I stayed for my Senior year, I could have entered college with Sophomore/close to Junior status.

Exactly my point!

[Major Carrales]

yeah...but your probably all socially awkward so you all seem normal to yourselves

If they were all "socially akward" then they would be "the norm" and you the "odd man out." 

Your comment came across as very uncalled for...in fact, this is a real prejudice here it would seem.   I am a bit taken back and will have to ask you to apologize or otherwise qualify these statement.

Uh dude, take a step back a minute and read the above posts and youll see it was a joke between myself and Extreme.  He is homeschooled and so are my kids.  Comments were made earlier that homeschooled kids can be socially awkward.  A little situational awareness goes along way before you assume Im bashing a cadet for being homeschooled.  And if you read further, you would find that I came to the defense of homeschooled kids being labled as having no social skills by using my kids as examples fo the opposite.  I thought it was pretty obvious.  Maybe not.

Obviously you have never seen a student being bullied in a Public School setting, every time it happens the "bully" plays it off as if it was a "joke."  I see it on a daily basis and intervene, just as I have done now.

Go back and read what you typed...it smacks of being inappropriate for a  Senior Member with Law enforcement experience to say to a cadet.  If his parents took it to the local police department citing that it was "cyber bullying" what do you suppose might happen in a world where this happened...

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20245666,00.html

If you personally knew this cadet or were there to "laugh it off" what is one thing, but taken out of context...well, people have been sued for less.

That said...

I was really taken aback by what was typed.  Maybe if it had been followed by an emoticon or a "j/k." I am not seriously saying it is inappropriate, but...as I said...people have been sued for less.

[jimmydeanno]

I was really taken aback by what was typed.  Maybe if it had been followed by an emoticon or a "j/k." I am not seriously saying it is inappropriate, but...as I said...people have been sued for less.

The greatest books every written did not include emoticons or "j/k" to convey humor, sarcasm, empathy, etc.  The reader derives those emotions through the select use of words in a certain context.  The wording used, in the context, between the two parties was dripping with sarcasm and humor.  The parties involved (and 99% of those not involved) were able to see it for what it was - a joke. 

[Extremepredjudice]

yeah...but your probably all socially awkward so you all seem normal to yourselves

If they were all "socially akward" then they would be "the norm" and you the "odd man out." 

Your comment came across as very uncalled for...in fact, this is a real prejudice here it would seem.   I am a bit taken back and will have to ask you to apologize or otherwise qualify these statement.

Uh dude, take a step back a minute and read the above posts and youll see it was a joke between myself and Extreme.  He is homeschooled and so are my kids.  Comments were made earlier that homeschooled kids can be socially awkward.  A little situational awareness goes along way before you assume Im bashing a cadet for being homeschooled.  And if you read further, you would find that I came to the defense of homeschooled kids being labled as having no social skills by using my kids as examples fo the opposite.  I thought it was pretty obvious.  Maybe not.

Obviously you have never seen a student being bullied in a Public School setting, every time it happens the "bully" plays it off as if it was a "joke."  I see it on a daily basis and intervene, just as I have done now.

Go back and read what you typed...it smacks of being inappropriate for a  Senior Member with Law enforcement experience to say to a cadet.  If his parents took it to the local police department citing that it was "cyber bullying" what do you suppose might happen in a world where this happened...

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20245666,00.html

If you personally knew this cadet or were there to "laugh it off" what is one thing, but taken out of context...well, people have been sued for less.

That said...

I was really taken aback by what was typed.  Maybe if it had been followed by an emoticon or a "j/k." I am not seriously saying it is inappropriate, but...as I said...people have been sued for less.

I took it as a joke. If the person it is directed at takes it as a joke, I don't really think it is bullying.

Me and my friend troll each other so much, my whole class thinks we are mortal enemies... 
We call each other 'a horrible person' and laugh about it... It takes a lot more than some random person calling me socially awkward for me to be bullied. I'm not a "fragile" soul.

Here is the 'Socially Awesome Awkward Penguin'

[Major Carrales]

Alright....alright...I get it.  Just remember...when one of you get trolled or dogpiled it will be PEACHY KEEN....and I will have these links to prove it.    Because...what's good for the GOOSE, is good for the GANDER!

[Extremepredjudice]

Jokes don't equal trolling. Sorry, sir.

[Major Carrales]

I was really taken aback by what was typed.  Maybe if it had been followed by an emoticon or a "j/k." I am not seriously saying it is inappropriate, but...as I said...people have been sued for less.

The greatest books every written did not include emoticons or "j/k" to convey humor, sarcasm, empathy, etc.  The reader derives those emotions through the select use of words in a certain context.  The wording used, in the context, between the two parties was dripping with sarcasm and humor.  The parties involved (and 99% of those not involved) were able to see it for what it was - a joke.

JUST FOR FUN....

1) CAPTALK...while entertaining...is not GREAT LITERATURE!  Please...CAPTALK is no "SLAUGTHERHOUSE V" or "THE JUNGLE," yeah..."but your probably all socially awkward so you all seem normal to yourselves" is basically calling a group of people FREAKS.  That would get me fired from my job.

2) It was an exchange between a CAP Adult and a CAP Cadet on a public web forum.  Not the best Public Affairs move for CAP.  Add that to all the other "HOME SCHOOL" bashing and I think a researching Home Schooler family may determine that some other organization might best serve their students/children. 

[whatevah]

Ok, time to lock this... the original question was answered and the resulting conversations are starting to resemble a train wreck.