Academic eligibility for the CP?

[abdsp51]

There are standards that in place and should be adhered to with a visual of the entire dynamic.

If you go back through this discussion, you'll find that there is no disagreement of the standard, only how to achieve it and whose judgement of "satisfactory" to use.

CAP, especially old timers here, consistently fails to recognized the volunteer aspect of the organization.

No I think they get the volunteer aspect of it.  How to achieve it should be up to the Sq CC and those involved in the CP side of the house IMO.

[Major Carrales]

force ME to keep the cadet in MY squadron

My all time favorite line from CAP commanders... "My squadron". No, it's not YOUR squadron, you just happen to be in the commanders chair at this time. Its Civil Air Patrols squadron, you just happen to be the current cat herder....

I take issue with that.  When I say "my squadron," I mean it as in "the squadron to which I belong."  It is an emotional investment.  I have said my "my squadron" since I was a SMWOG.  It very much is "my squadron."  And it is the squadron of those that belong to it's rolls.

Now, in the context you say...there it is the manifestionation of MEGLOMANIA!!!  Well...that is some other guy.

[Major Carrales]

There have been many times where a less-than-stellar student...one mired in academic failure and behavior problems...starts popping their head into meetings and approaching, at first with mockery of the cadets and then with politness.

Then, they ask to join...

Slowly, they take to cadets.  The student, who is failing math and English/Language Arts...despite this, is writing reports on CAPF 109s that display excellent grammar (usually when they realize that people have to understand what they wrire) and are using trig functions to calculate rocketry equations for small informal competitions.

There is a "lag," for lack of a better word...between a cadet's CADET PROGRESS and those traits filtering to other aspects of life.  During that "lag" there are settling in effects. 

Sometimes fellow teachers come to me and expect me to discipline the student with a solid "What type of cadets do you have there?"  or "Have you no standards?"

I have to inform them that the cadet program is not an instant cure all.  Even in the cadet training materials it says that "integrity" cannot be endowed "over night."

Sometimes...we can't "save them," we can only hope to make a slight difference.  I want every cadet to look back on their CAP service and smile.

Also, I should say, we are not equiped to "turn people's life around."  I have often rejected a principal or parent's request to "fix" their child through harsh discipline.  I don't offer BOOT CAMP style instruction nor do I want to circumnavigate the assigned missions of CAP and the cadet proram for what amounts to SCHOOL COUNSELING or social work.  I don't have the credentials and training for that.

[jimmydeanno]

I  absolutely refer to the unit I command as "my unit."  I am the first commander that has actually put their name on the desk on the "Squadron Commander" desk plaque.  As a commander, it is important to take ownership of the unit you command.  It makes you more personally invested in the mission and success of the unit.  It doesn't signify that I "own" the people who give me their time and energy, but signifies that I have a responsibility to them, their progress, and their successes. 

My unit is indeed "my unit" because I am the one who's head is on the chopping block if it doesn't succeed.  It isn't me having some sort of superiority complex, its me taking accountability for our mission success.  YMMV.

[SARDOC]

If you go back through this discussion, you'll find that there is no disagreement of the standard, only how to achieve it and whose judgement of "satisfactory" to use.

CAP, especially old timers here, consistently fails to recognized the volunteer aspect of the organization.

I think you are making the assumption that if someone isn't a paid career employee that they can't be professional. 

When questioning the Judgement of a member because they are a volunteer, I think it might be you failing to recognize the volunteer aspect of the organization.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have been a member of multiple volunteer organizations, including CAP, and I can tell you volunteers can be the best resource in any organization. 

If a member has an issue with the judgement of what is "satisfactory" they have an appeals process and should avail themselves of it.  Volunteers are people, Commanders included and they can make mistakes.  That's why we have an appeals process.

[bflynn]

I think you are making the assumption that if someone isn't a paid career employee that they can't be professional. 

By definition, someone who is unpaid is not a professional - it's not an assumption, it just is.  That does not mean they cannot act professionally. 

What I was saying is that someone acting in a professional military leadership manner does not work the same with a volunteer organization.  There is an element of military leadership that uses the compulsive power of the leader - that doesn't exist in CAP any further than the member's desire to keep serving their community.  Leaders in CAP cannot compel followership through legal means.  There are those who who do not understand that. 

We are a different type of organization that needs a different leadership style than the military.

If a member has an issue with the judgement of what is "satisfactory" they have an appeals process and should avail themselves of it.  Volunteers are people, Commanders included and they can make mistakes.  That's why we have an appeals process.

The choices of whose judgement of satisfactory to use was  on the question of whether the organization should judge it or a parent.  I maintain that parents are responsible for raising their children, including what constitutes satisfactory academic progression.  Parents know their children best.

[Spaceman3750]

I think you are making the assumption that if someone isn't a paid career employee that they can't be professional. 

By definition, someone who is unpaid is not a professional - it's not an assumption, it just is.  That does not mean they cannot act professionally. 

What I was saying is that someone acting in a professional military leadership manner does not work the same with a volunteer organization.  There is an element of military leadership that uses the compulsive power of the leader - that doesn't exist in CAP any further than the member's desire to keep serving their community.  Leaders in CAP cannot compel followership through legal means.  There are those who who do not understand that. 

We are a different type of organization that needs a different leadership style than the military.

The age old question - is it better to rule by love or fear?

In CAP's case, the only way to do it is by love. As a young leader, that is hard for me to do at times. I have discovered that I am significantly less personable when put in stressful situations (some GT sorties as the GTL, for example). Therefore, while I may get immediate compliance from my followers in those situations, I am pushing them away from me for the future.

[abdsp51]

You do not need to be paid to be proffesional.  And ultimately it is upto the CC to decide if the potential cadet is accepted or not. 

Parents are ultimately responsible for their children across the board but they are not the final say for joining our or any organization.

[lordmonar]

I think you are making the assumption that if someone isn't a paid career employee that they can't be professional. 

By definition, someone who is unpaid is not a professional - it's not an assumption, it just is.  That does not mean they cannot act professionally.

Sorry...have to disagree.  A profession is a vocation...a calling....it does not have anything to do with employment.....although your profession is often your employment.

[lordmonar]

The choices of whose judgement of satisfactory to use was  on the question of whether the organization should judge it or a parent.  I maintain that parents are responsible for raising their children, including what constitutes satisfactory academic progression.  Parents know their children best.

I agree......to a point.  The unit commander is still the primary guardian of CAP's standards.  Because CAP does not want stupid kids in our program.   If Little Johnny is getting straight D's in school.....we can kick him out.  We may not want that type of person in CAP.  This is not about what is best for the cadet...this is about what's best for CAP.

Now.....having said that.....I as a long time CP guy.....would not and do not advocate setting a more or less arbitrary standard "you must have a 2.0 GPA).  I do advocate that we routinely look at our cadet's grades and IF........IF they are struggeling in school.....we GET WITH THEIR PARENTS and see if CAP is contributing to the bad grades and what affect it may have on the cadet if they were suspended or kicked out.

[bflynn]

The age old question - is it better to rule by love or fear?

In CAP's case, the only way to do it is by love. As a young leader, that is hard for me to do at times. I have discovered that I am significantly less personable when put in stressful situations (some GT sorties as the GTL, for example). Therefore, while I may get immediate compliance from my followers in those situations, I am pushing them away from me for the future.

That's all I was saying - thank you for saying it better.

Sorry...have to disagree.  A profession is a vocation...a calling....it does not have anything to do with employment.....although your profession is often your employment.

You disagree that a professional (noun) is someone who gets paid for what they do?  You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the dictionary.  You can do that, it doesn't bother me.  There's room for many different ways of seeing things, we are all different people.

[ßτε]

You disagree that a professional (noun) is someone who gets paid for what they do?  You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the dictionary.  You can do that, it doesn't bother me.  There's room for many different ways of seeing things, we are all different people.

We don't disagree with that definition. However, it is not the only definition, and not the one being used in this context. What I don't understand is your insistence in using a very narrow definition and how you criticize others for using a word in a different context.

[bflynn]

Other definitions of professional are adjectives.

I've been accused of being too general, that people don't understand me when I say something in a general sense.  So I'm attempting to be precise - the is a difference between acting professionaly (adj) and being a professional (noun).

Very few here are professionals when it comes to CAP.  Everyone can act professionally.

The last point I wanted to make was that I believe a professional military attidude is harmful to CAP.  But for some reason, people don't want to hear that.

[johnnyb47]

Merriam-Webster says:

1
a: of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b: engaged in one of the learned professions c (1): characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2): exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace

2
a: participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b: having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c: engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

3
: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>

[Eclipse]

The last point I wanted to make was that I believe a professional military attidude is harmful to CAP.  But for some reason, people don't want to hear that.

When you have some experience with leading people in CAP you will understand how wrong that statement is.

[bflynn]

Yes, well Webster is using professionally to define professional.  That's bad form.  I used a different dictionary.

In any case - I'd like the emphasis to be on whether or not professional military leadership is harmful to CAP.

I think just leadership works regardless of what the situation is.

[lordmonar]

You disagree that a professional (noun) is someone who gets paid for what they do?  You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the dictionary.  You can do that, it doesn't bother me.  There's room for many different ways of seeing things, we are all different people.

professional
pro•fes•sion•al
adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer. 
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: "A salesman," he said, "is a professional optimist."
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
noun
10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, especially one of the learned professions.
11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

As with many things......there are seveal definitions.  While getting paid is usually an indicator of a Professional......to differentiate from an amatuer......but there are also professionals who are unpaid. See definition 10, 12, and 13 as opposed to definition 11.

[Eclipse]

redundant to the above.

[FlyTiger77]

In any case - I'd like the emphasis to be on whether or not professional military leadership is harmful to CAP.

I will go on record as thinking that your definition of "professional military leadership" is narrow and skewed if you think its principles can not be used successfully in CAP.

I believe you have indicated that your background is in the underwater USN and I have no idea how they do things there. Where I come from, very successful military leaders rarely resort to fear and/or coercion to accomplish their missions. Unless I am mistaken, I understand that you believe this fear/coercion method is "Professional Military Leadership" and that is foreign to the vast majority of my experience over the last 20-some odd years.

People who get their understanding of military leadership from Hollywood drivel will not be successful trying to use those techniques in the military much less in CAP.

Obviously, there are times when very directed, one-way conversations take place in military organizations, but they are the exception and not the norm.

Finally, as was stated by several people above, commanders are the gate keepers for enforcing CAP standards among those who do not enforce (or embrace) them themselves. Volunteer status does not excuse members from adhering to the standards of the organization. A group of people doing as they wish without standards is a mob.

Feel free to resume your discussion of semantics and dictionary construction at your leisure.

[abdsp51]

Professional military leadership harmful I must be missing something.  In all my units that was what was used and it is what I use here.  Now certain styles of military leadership may be a detriment to the unit but I doubt military leadership is completely.