Academic eligibility for the CP?

[bflynn]

And we as CP leaders should be monitoring it.

Why do you feel like you should be responsible?  That's my job.

As a parent, I would be the one telling you to take a step back.  My son doesn't have to bring his report card in to any other of his activities - scouts, martial arts or the Y and all have requirements that students maintain academic progress.  We look at his report card and determine what he needs to work on.

Then again, based on that, he might not be qualified for the cadet program since he has consistently has an unsatisfactory marked on his report card.  But we are working with him to get his penmanship up to par.

[lordmonar]

Why do I feel responsible?

Because I am his leader.
Leaders are concerned about their charges.
Not just in the 3 hours a week of contact time....but the whole person.

So....we ask for report cards.  We engage the parents in any thing we think they need to be engaged with.  We ususally default to the wishes of the parents in most cases.

So your cadet comes in with a bunch of Fs....well would talk to you about....you say you are on top of it and you want your cadet to continue with CAP.....and if there are no other discipline problems.....well there you go everything is fine you cadet stays in CAP.

If you think we are getting too much into your chilly.......well you can always take your cadet somewhere else.  CAP membership is not a right......I hate to get so confontational.......but really.......the goal is to make sure that you cadet is developing properly an extra pair of eyes is always good.

Oh....by the way...if you cadet also appears depressed, abused, injured, mentally distrubed, altered or anything else that makes me worry about him.....I'm going to call you to pass on my concerns as well....because that's what leaders do.

[bflynn]

Not to be argumentative, but if my son came in with a bunch of F's, you'd never talk to him because he wouldn't be attending CAP - or scouts or anything else.  But that's irrelevant because it will never happen for many reasons.

You can be concerned, but if you start thinking  you're taking the place of a parent, you're probably too deep.

[Nathan]

I'm with lordmonar on this one.

When someone becomes a cadet in our program we DO become partially responsible for that cadet. Not to the point of overriding the will of the parents, but we do have the ultimate authority to choose who gets to be in our squadron, and who doesn't.

If I kick a cadet out for poor academic performance, that's not an encroachment of parental authority. The parent trying to force ME to keep the cadet in MY squadron is an encroachment of MY authority. In no way am I trying to tell the cadet's parents what standards they should hold for their own child, nor am I telling them how to parent. I am simply stating that my standards are set, and if their child fails to meet those standards, then he/she doesn't get to be in it.

It's really the same thing I would tell to a parent who is upset because I don't let their child show up with their hair out of regulations. I am not telling the parent that it is wrong for them to let their child grow their hair out. I am simply saying that they cannot participate in my squadron if they don't meet the standard. There is no moral judgement here.

And the fact is that I would be an irresponsible commander if I knew a cadet was failing school and still allowed the cadet to participate in my program. To a point, we rely on the cadets' outside education to prepare them for the cadet program and all the testing requirements we have. If a cadet just doesn't care about education, then he is unlikely to progress or get much out of the cadet program. And if he progresses well in CAP, but is failing school, then it seems that CAP has become a priority over school, which is absolutely something that should concern any CAP commander. We cannot be a substitute for primary education.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to seeing some sort of standard set up for determining whether or not a cadet can maintain membership. On the other hand, though, I really don't want to be forced to kick a cadet out over one bad semester if there is reason to believe it is out of the norm. As lordmonar said, it is a far better solution for commanders to have flexibility in dealing with these situations on a case-by-case basis.

Let me state it again. It is NOT an encroachment of parental authority for a commander to determine whether or not CAP is the right fit for the cadet. Membership is not a right.

For the record, I think there are a lot of reasons why pregnancy differs from an academic situation, mainly due to the case-by-case framework I described above, but that's not what this thread is about, so I'm not going into it...

[abdsp51]

And we as CP leaders should be monitoring it.

Why do you feel like you should be responsible?  That's my job.

As a parent, I would be the one telling you to take a step back.  My son doesn't have to bring his report card in to any other of his activities - scouts, martial arts or the Y and all have requirements that students maintain academic progress.  We look at his report card and determine what he needs to work on.

Then again, based on that, he might not be qualified for the cadet program since he has consistently has an unsatisfactory marked on his report card.  But we are working with him to get his penmanship up to par.

You're thinking about it to much in a business mindset, where you are not entirely responsible for your people outside of the office.  You need to remember that a good chunk of SMs in this program are either active/reserve/guard or former military.  In which case we are/were responsible for our subordinates round the clock.  That being said no one is saying that we are meant to replace or step on the toes of the parent/s but if there is sub-par performance with a cadet in school then that is where they should be focusing on.  If they are working on that and showing progress then it's something to be worked with.  Back in the 90's there was a certain GPA that had to be maintained in order to be active in the program.

[NCRblues]

force ME to keep the cadet in MY squadron

My all time favorite line from CAP commanders... "My squadron". No, it's not YOUR squadron, you just happen to be in the commanders chair at this time. Its Civil Air Patrols squadron, you just happen to be the current cat herder....

[lordmonar]

force ME to keep the cadet in MY squadron

My all time favorite line from CAP commanders... "My squadron". No, it's not YOUR squadron, you just happen to be in the commanders chair at this time. Its Civil Air Patrols squadron, you just happen to be the current cat herder....

Yep...that's right.  It is "My" squadron.  Just like they are MY cadets.  Someone appoints you to be in charge of something you take possession of it.  Ownership.   So it should be your fivorite line and you should not be giving anyone who shows pride in ownership a hard time!

And it is the Unit Commander's responsibilty to be the gate keeper of who should be allowed to join and when someone needs to go....both of these points are clearly spelled out in the regulations.

[NCRblues]

Ok, so what happens when you ask an 18 year old cadet to see his report card and he informs you that he legally dropped out of school? Are you going to kick him out? What about a 20 year old cadet in college who refuses to show you?

Once again, this regulation is CAP overreaching and pretending to be something we are not. We do not and can not control people's lives outside the couple hours a week they show up.

This is really beyond belief for me that you all really think it's up to you to correct cadets on academia. Are you at their school everyday helping them study? Do you have the time to tutor those cadets that are failing every class? What if cadet johhny john john actually brought UP his grades to a "D" average after finding CAP? Are you going to go cry to his parents that john john is dumb and we no longer want him around?

[Eclipse]

And it is the Unit Commander's responsibilty to be the gate keeper of who should be allowed to join and when someone needs to go....both of these points are clearly spelled out in the regulations.

+1 Like the idea or not, a unit CC has personal responsibility for a squadron in the same was as a captain does for his ship.

Ok, so what happens when you ask an 18 year old cadet to see his report card and he informs you that he legally dropped out of school? Are you going to kick him out? What about a 20 year old cadet in college who refuses to show you?

Maybe - there's lots of things that a cadet could do "legally" which might reflect poorly on his status as a cadet.  I'd say dropping out of high school is high on that list.

Members want the opportunities, recognition, respect that goes with being a part of an organization whose objective membership and performance criteria are "more" then the Condo Association or local rec center, then get upset when those same objective criteria might mean they can't play or have to work harder.

You can't have it both ways.

[bflynn]

Ownership. 

Are they your senior members too?  You own them?

[jeders]

Ownership. 

Are they your senior members too?  You own them?

Yes. Because when they screw up, it's the squadron commander who is going to be getting a call as well from group/wing/etc. to find out why they were allowed to screw up.

[Ed Bos]

Ownership. 

Are they your senior members too?  You own them?

I think you're missing their point.

[Eclipse]

Ownership. 

Are they your senior members too?  You own them?

Yes. Because when they screw up, it's the squadron commander who is going to be getting a call as well from group/wing/etc. to find out why they were allowed to screw up.

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience, especially those
who come from management environments where "its not my problem".

Every facet of a member's participation, activity, and experience is the personal responsibility of the respective commander.  A major
challenge for CAP is that this concept is not stressed enough, and so we get members who feel empowered to do whatever and wherever they
want, and we don't hold commanders to a hot enough fire on the responsibility for bad or improper behavior.

[lordmonar]

Ownership. 

Are they your senior members too?  You own them?

Yes.

[lordmonar]

Ok, so what happens when you ask an 18 year old cadet to see his report card and he informs you that he legally dropped out of school? Are you going to kick him out? What about a 20 year old cadet in college who refuses to show you?

No...because he legally dropped out of school.  If he dropped out illegally....i.e. just quit...then yes out he goes.....and he can't join as a SM because a high school deploma is a requirment for membership.

Once again, this regulation is CAP overreaching and pretending to be something we are not. We do not and can not control people's lives outside the couple hours a week they show up.

You are right...we can't CONTROL anyone in our out of CAP....but we do control who is IN CAP.

This is really beyond belief for me that you all really think it's up to you to correct cadets on academia. Are you at their school everyday helping them study? Do you have the time to tutor those cadets that are failing every class? What if cadet johhny john john actually brought UP his grades to a "D" average after finding CAP? Are you going to go cry to his parents that john john is dumb and we no longer want him around?

I don't want to correct them.  I simply want to work with their parents and make sure that CAP is not interfereing with what is really important....gettting a good education.  That is why I like the subjective nature of the reg.  It allows you to say....Little Johnny is not doing well in school....but he has a learning disability and CAP is a good for him and kicking him out will not help his school....so we can retain him.  But if Little Johnny is shirking his home work because he "has to do CAP" then we have a regulation that we can use to offically suspend him and or kick him out if we (CAP and his parents) think that is what is best for him.

[NCRblues]

Ok, so what happens when you ask an 18 year old cadet to see his report card and he informs you that he legally dropped out of school? Are you going to kick him out? What about a 20 year old cadet in college who refuses to show you?

No...because he legally dropped out of school.  If he dropped out illegally....i.e. just quit...then yes out he goes.....and he can't join as a SM because a high school deploma is a requirment for membership.

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

[bflynn]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

[Eclipse]

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

It's the subjective call of the respective commander.

[Eclipse]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

Interesting how this always seems to come up when you start holding people to expectations they don't agree with.

The situation is the same in corporate america, managers are supposed to be responsible for their people, including being included
in the remediation when then make mistakes.

Like it or not, the regulations, policies, and precedent is clear.  Members are free to vote with their feet if they don't agree.

[NCRblues]

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

It's the subjective call of the respective commander.

And yet it is not, because the regulations do not say that a cadet must be enrolled in school. They can not become SM's without a HS diploma, but a cadet under the law can drop out of high school. So when that cadet files suit against CAP, I hope your uniform looks nice to testify at.