Academic eligibility for the CP?

[LC]

Would it be allowed to have a squadron CDC or CC request to see a copy of the cadets most recent report card to "determine eligibility" to participate in CAP?

I have combed through 52-16 and can not find any supporting regulation for this, but the squadron is determined to go through with this idea. Is it not up to the parents of the child if they get to come and play or not?

[coudano]

I saw it when i was a cadet as well,

in my opinion, school documents (like report cards) are private information and CAP has no business 'forcing' its members to disclose them anyway.

[Eclipse]

35-3 says satisfactory academics are required, how else would you verify that?

[lordmonar]

I saw it when i was a cadet as well,

in my opinion, school documents (like report cards) are private information and CAP has no business 'forcing' its members to disclose them anyway.

3. Causes To Terminate Cadet Membership:
a. Automatic Loss of Membership:
(1) Reaching 21st birthday. National Headquarters will automatically transfer cadets to senior status when the cadets leach their 21st birthdays (unless membership expires during the same month).
(2) Marriage.
(3) Joining the active duty Armed Forces. The term "active duty Armed Forces" does not include members in the National Guard or Reserves who are not on extended active duty.
(4) Payment of any kind made by bad check to National Headquarters if such check is not redeemed within 60 days of proper notification.
(5) Failure to maintain a satisfactory academic school record.
(6) Loss of the status "admitted for permanent residence" by an alien member other than by acquiring
citizenship to the U.S.
(7) Failure to renew.
(8) Voluntary resignation.

Beat me to it....but CAP does have not only the right but the duty to insure that you are getting satisfactory grades.

[NCRblues]

Who determines "satisfactory"??

As a CAP member it is not my job to tell a cadet or parent that I think a "C" average student is not "satisfactory".

This is another overreaching and overbearing regulation by CAP that needs to be removed. Just like the "pregnancy" rule, CAP can not control the cadets (or SM's for that matter) outside CAP.

[Eclipse]

No, but they are bound to uphold the standard internally.

The KB suggests that this is not only grade based, but also attendance and other factors.  Members may do what they will, that doesn't mean CAP has to accept it.

[coudano]

you got any squadrons around making cadets bring in their report cards every semester?

how about every mid term?

why not make the cadets go around and get teacher reports every week...



where do you draw the lines?


(and by the way I have a cadet who is on suspension from CAP right now for grades; however the suspension was initiated by the cadet's parents)

[LC]

you got any squadrons around making cadets bring in their report cards every semester?

how about every mid term?

why not make the cadets go around and get teacher reports every week...



where do you draw the lines?

[lmgtfy]
(and by the way I have a cadet who is on suspension from CAP right now for grades; however the suspension was initiated by the cadet's parents)

[/lmgtfy]





And that is up to the parents, not your squadron commanders.

[Major Carrales]

This is an interesting topic.  The Cadets at my squadron, generally, attend the school district where I work.  Some do not attend my CAMPUS and others are in other school districts.   Since the Unit does meet at the school, there are issues in a a gray area here as to if it is kosher to look into their classes since, in REALITY we are not a true school function (like the school paper, student council, band or athletics).

This is one of the issues associated with meeting and working closely with School Districts.

Suppose a Principal or Teach is having issues with a cadet in class...and they approach me as the squadron commander about the student?  If the student is failing, in theory, they will not have time to participate actively in squadron activites and the like in lieu of work on some academic area.

It is somewhat unethical and even Illegal in many places for Teachers and Administators to discuss student issues as a matter of confidentiality.  Here, again, there is a gray area where people's teaching certificate would be on the line, maybe even their job.

CAP would have to really think about being able to fully enforce that rule.

Then there are the CORE VALUES... Intergrity, Excellence, Volunteer Service and Respect.  Hiding poor grades from the Squadron violates Intergrity and shows lack of respect for the commanders.  The failure violates the value of EXCELLENCE.

If another cadet, say one up for a rank or position in the unit (ambitious sort) shows up at the unit with a copy of some other cadet's report card demanding the cadet's suspension from CAP and cites this regulation.  That would be another integrity issues.  "Bumping off" other CAP members for your position is wrong as rain.

This LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR...

PARENTING!!!

Maybe this needs to go into the Parent's realm.  They will legally and ethically have the data, maybe they can report the faux pas to the unit commander on their own child.  This may demonstrate an sort of integrity in that if there is poor academic prowess, it will be necessary to refrain from usual activities.  The incentive to do welll at all times reinforces INTEGRITY, and provides a corrective removal from CAP in the intrim.

[EMT-83]

I saw it when i was a cadet as well,

in my opinion, school documents (like report cards) are private information and CAP has no business 'forcing' its members to disclose them anyway.

No one is "forcing" the member to join or maintain their membership. Should you make that choice, you should expect to play by the rules.

[bflynn]

35-3 says satisfactory academics are required, how else would you verify that?

Ask the kid's parents?  Aren't they responsible for raising them and their education?

If you allow a squadron commander to make the call, then you have different standards applied depending on the standard of the current commander.  Kids don't change parents very often.

[Eclipse]

Cadets receive direct benefit from their academic performance in membership itself, and in many Units, Groups, Wings, even nationally
there are Cadet Honor Societies, Cadet of the Month (etc)., scholarships, even access to certain NCSAs (if i recall correctly), which factor in
a cadet's academic performance and standing.

We have to grant that professional educators may have a line to walk, just like medical professionals, etc., and the school programs will have this
information as a matter of course, but the bottom line is that this isn't' optional, nor is it an affront to privacy, it's simply part
of being a cadet, subjective to the commander asking the question.

We also have home-schooled cadets who may not have an objective way of proving performance, but they would still need to provide "something".

This is what the KB suggests, which is perfectly reasonable:

To verify school attendance and satisfactory progress, there is nothing wrong with asking the cadet for a transcript or letter from the school showing enrollment and satisfactory progress especially if there is some doubt or concern. For home schoolers the cadet could be asked for a letter from the parents certifying attendance and satisfactory progress. Likewise all cadets might be asked to periodically show report cards to monitor progress.

Maintaining a satisfactory academic school record is based on a number of factors such as grades, regular attendance, school suspensions or expulsions, and any number of other factors such as meeting the requirements of an individualized academic program (IAP). Because schools and school requirements and individual programs vary greatly, the regulations do not specify specific criteria such as a "C" average in order to maintain a satisfactory academic school record.

The unit commander and deputy commander for cadets should look at all factors and make the determination that a cadet is maintaining a satisfactory academic school record. Should the commander determine the cadet is not maintaining a satisfactory academic school record there are several options available such as counseling, withholding promotions, suspension, and even termination.

For example, the CAP Form 50 Cadet Progression Evaluation may be used as a counseling tool to address and correct inappropriate behavior or issues with maintaining a satisfactory academic school record.

[Spaceman3750]

Generally, schools must have written permission from the parent or eligible student in order to release any information from a student's education record.

This may be no different than an employer asking me for my college transcripts, but a school can't directly certify anything without parental consent.

EDIT: Fixed omission.

[coudano]

Generally, schools must have written permission from the parent or eligible student in order to release any information from a student's education record.

This may be no different than an employer asking for my college transcripts, but a school can't directly certify anything without parental consent.

If the employer asks your school for your transcripts, the school will tell them to take a hike
unless you have signed a document releasing the school, to release the transcripts.

[Spaceman3750]

Generally, schools must have written permission from the parent or eligible student in order to release any information from a student's education record.

This may be no different than an employer asking for my college transcripts, but a school can't directly certify anything without parental consent.

If the employer asks your school for your transcripts, the school will tell them to take a hike
unless you have signed a document releasing the school, to release the transcripts.

Of course. I forgot an important word in that sentence: "This may be no different than an employer asking me for my college transcripts."

Denying the release of directory information is particularly interesting... At my university, if you disallow the release of directory information and someone asks about you, their typical response is "Who?".

[Eclipse]

OK, but we're not talking about any sort of background requests - this isn't even a privacy issue.
Everything is voluntary, and reasonable people could come to a reasonable solution if for some
reason the report card can't / won't be shared. 

The school or parents could provide a generalized letter, as long as there's an understanding that
fraud would have consequences.

But in the same situation, if the unit CC includes GPA in Cadet of the Month, and you don't want to share, then you can't be considered.

This is another of the arguments which people can make a big deal about "academically" (see what I did there?), but pragmatically
generally only indicates the negative.  Few cadets or parents will be reluctant to share a report card with all "As" and no disciplinary
check marks, especially if they are involved in a program like CAP which objectively grades Timmy on a regular basis, already.

[bflynn]

So make another paperwork drill so that a cadet can participate?  I was making a joke earlier about you living for paperwork, was I not joking and didn't know it?

What would be accomplished by a letter that isn't being accomplished by having parents monitor it?

Is there actually a problem?

Note - lots of question marks in my post. 

[lordmonar]

Who determines "satisfactory"??

As a CAP member it is not my job to tell a cadet or parent that I think a "C" average student is not "satisfactory".

This is another overreaching and overbearing regulation by CAP that needs to be removed. Just like the "pregnancy" rule, CAP can not control the cadets (or SM's for that matter) outside CAP.

You are right we can't control them outside of CAP.....but we can say if you are not doing good in school you can't be in CAP.

As for who gets to determine satisfactory.......it is good that we don't define it too strong....it allows us to make the call based on the actual situation.  If it is too objective....then we MUST kick out people when they fall below the standard....but it being subjective it gives us a tool if and when it is needed.

[lordmonar]

you got any squadrons around making cadets bring in their report cards every semester?

how about every mid term?

why not make the cadets go around and get teacher reports every week...



where do you draw the lines?


(and by the way I have a cadet who is on suspension from CAP right now for grades; however the suspension was initiated by the cadet's parents)

My squadron makes our cadets bring in their report cards each quarter.  If we see any D's we start to engage the parents in the conversation about whether it is good for the cadet to remove CAP from the situation so they can focus on school.

Lukily we have not had any problems in this area for the last 3-4 years.

[lordmonar]

So make another paperwork drill so that a cadet can participate?  I was making a joke earlier about you living for paperwork, was I not joking and didn't know it?

What would be accomplished by a letter that isn't being accomplished by having parents monitor it?

Is there actually a problem?

Note - lots of question marks in my post.

Yes it is a paperwork drill.  Yes there is a benifit to both CAP and the Cadet.
If when you you see their grades you see something that concerns you.....it opens to the door for you to engage the parent to help fix the probelm.

The problem could be that the amount of time the cadet is spending on CAP is interfering with their school work.  Being in CAP should not impact your school work.  And we as CP leaders should be monitoring it.

And since the standard is subjective it gives us the flexibility to make call based on the individual cadet and his/her parents.

It also gives us another tool if it needed to remove a cadet who is disruptive to cadet program.

[bflynn]

And we as CP leaders should be monitoring it.

Why do you feel like you should be responsible?  That's my job.

As a parent, I would be the one telling you to take a step back.  My son doesn't have to bring his report card in to any other of his activities - scouts, martial arts or the Y and all have requirements that students maintain academic progress.  We look at his report card and determine what he needs to work on.

Then again, based on that, he might not be qualified for the cadet program since he has consistently has an unsatisfactory marked on his report card.  But we are working with him to get his penmanship up to par.

[lordmonar]

Why do I feel responsible?

Because I am his leader.
Leaders are concerned about their charges.
Not just in the 3 hours a week of contact time....but the whole person.

So....we ask for report cards.  We engage the parents in any thing we think they need to be engaged with.  We ususally default to the wishes of the parents in most cases.

So your cadet comes in with a bunch of Fs....well would talk to you about....you say you are on top of it and you want your cadet to continue with CAP.....and if there are no other discipline problems.....well there you go everything is fine you cadet stays in CAP.

If you think we are getting too much into your chilly.......well you can always take your cadet somewhere else.  CAP membership is not a right......I hate to get so confontational.......but really.......the goal is to make sure that you cadet is developing properly an extra pair of eyes is always good.

Oh....by the way...if you cadet also appears depressed, abused, injured, mentally distrubed, altered or anything else that makes me worry about him.....I'm going to call you to pass on my concerns as well....because that's what leaders do.

[bflynn]

Not to be argumentative, but if my son came in with a bunch of F's, you'd never talk to him because he wouldn't be attending CAP - or scouts or anything else.  But that's irrelevant because it will never happen for many reasons.

You can be concerned, but if you start thinking  you're taking the place of a parent, you're probably too deep.

[Nathan]

I'm with lordmonar on this one.

When someone becomes a cadet in our program we DO become partially responsible for that cadet. Not to the point of overriding the will of the parents, but we do have the ultimate authority to choose who gets to be in our squadron, and who doesn't.

If I kick a cadet out for poor academic performance, that's not an encroachment of parental authority. The parent trying to force ME to keep the cadet in MY squadron is an encroachment of MY authority. In no way am I trying to tell the cadet's parents what standards they should hold for their own child, nor am I telling them how to parent. I am simply stating that my standards are set, and if their child fails to meet those standards, then he/she doesn't get to be in it.

It's really the same thing I would tell to a parent who is upset because I don't let their child show up with their hair out of regulations. I am not telling the parent that it is wrong for them to let their child grow their hair out. I am simply saying that they cannot participate in my squadron if they don't meet the standard. There is no moral judgement here.

And the fact is that I would be an irresponsible commander if I knew a cadet was failing school and still allowed the cadet to participate in my program. To a point, we rely on the cadets' outside education to prepare them for the cadet program and all the testing requirements we have. If a cadet just doesn't care about education, then he is unlikely to progress or get much out of the cadet program. And if he progresses well in CAP, but is failing school, then it seems that CAP has become a priority over school, which is absolutely something that should concern any CAP commander. We cannot be a substitute for primary education.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to seeing some sort of standard set up for determining whether or not a cadet can maintain membership. On the other hand, though, I really don't want to be forced to kick a cadet out over one bad semester if there is reason to believe it is out of the norm. As lordmonar said, it is a far better solution for commanders to have flexibility in dealing with these situations on a case-by-case basis.

Let me state it again. It is NOT an encroachment of parental authority for a commander to determine whether or not CAP is the right fit for the cadet. Membership is not a right.

For the record, I think there are a lot of reasons why pregnancy differs from an academic situation, mainly due to the case-by-case framework I described above, but that's not what this thread is about, so I'm not going into it...

[abdsp51]

And we as CP leaders should be monitoring it.

Why do you feel like you should be responsible?  That's my job.

As a parent, I would be the one telling you to take a step back.  My son doesn't have to bring his report card in to any other of his activities - scouts, martial arts or the Y and all have requirements that students maintain academic progress.  We look at his report card and determine what he needs to work on.

Then again, based on that, he might not be qualified for the cadet program since he has consistently has an unsatisfactory marked on his report card.  But we are working with him to get his penmanship up to par.

You're thinking about it to much in a business mindset, where you are not entirely responsible for your people outside of the office.  You need to remember that a good chunk of SMs in this program are either active/reserve/guard or former military.  In which case we are/were responsible for our subordinates round the clock.  That being said no one is saying that we are meant to replace or step on the toes of the parent/s but if there is sub-par performance with a cadet in school then that is where they should be focusing on.  If they are working on that and showing progress then it's something to be worked with.  Back in the 90's there was a certain GPA that had to be maintained in order to be active in the program.

[NCRblues]

force ME to keep the cadet in MY squadron

My all time favorite line from CAP commanders... "My squadron". No, it's not YOUR squadron, you just happen to be in the commanders chair at this time. Its Civil Air Patrols squadron, you just happen to be the current cat herder....

[lordmonar]

force ME to keep the cadet in MY squadron

My all time favorite line from CAP commanders... "My squadron". No, it's not YOUR squadron, you just happen to be in the commanders chair at this time. Its Civil Air Patrols squadron, you just happen to be the current cat herder....

Yep...that's right.  It is "My" squadron.  Just like they are MY cadets.  Someone appoints you to be in charge of something you take possession of it.  Ownership.   So it should be your fivorite line and you should not be giving anyone who shows pride in ownership a hard time!

And it is the Unit Commander's responsibilty to be the gate keeper of who should be allowed to join and when someone needs to go....both of these points are clearly spelled out in the regulations.

[NCRblues]

Ok, so what happens when you ask an 18 year old cadet to see his report card and he informs you that he legally dropped out of school? Are you going to kick him out? What about a 20 year old cadet in college who refuses to show you?

Once again, this regulation is CAP overreaching and pretending to be something we are not. We do not and can not control people's lives outside the couple hours a week they show up.

This is really beyond belief for me that you all really think it's up to you to correct cadets on academia. Are you at their school everyday helping them study? Do you have the time to tutor those cadets that are failing every class? What if cadet johhny john john actually brought UP his grades to a "D" average after finding CAP? Are you going to go cry to his parents that john john is dumb and we no longer want him around?

[Eclipse]

And it is the Unit Commander's responsibilty to be the gate keeper of who should be allowed to join and when someone needs to go....both of these points are clearly spelled out in the regulations.

+1 Like the idea or not, a unit CC has personal responsibility for a squadron in the same was as a captain does for his ship.

Ok, so what happens when you ask an 18 year old cadet to see his report card and he informs you that he legally dropped out of school? Are you going to kick him out? What about a 20 year old cadet in college who refuses to show you?

Maybe - there's lots of things that a cadet could do "legally" which might reflect poorly on his status as a cadet.  I'd say dropping out of high school is high on that list.

Members want the opportunities, recognition, respect that goes with being a part of an organization whose objective membership and performance criteria are "more" then the Condo Association or local rec center, then get upset when those same objective criteria might mean they can't play or have to work harder.

You can't have it both ways.

[bflynn]

Ownership. 

Are they your senior members too?  You own them?

[jeders]

Ownership. 

Are they your senior members too?  You own them?

Yes. Because when they screw up, it's the squadron commander who is going to be getting a call as well from group/wing/etc. to find out why they were allowed to screw up.

[Ed Bos]

Ownership. 

Are they your senior members too?  You own them?

I think you're missing their point.

[Eclipse]

Ownership. 

Are they your senior members too?  You own them?

Yes. Because when they screw up, it's the squadron commander who is going to be getting a call as well from group/wing/etc. to find out why they were allowed to screw up.

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience, especially those
who come from management environments where "its not my problem".

Every facet of a member's participation, activity, and experience is the personal responsibility of the respective commander.  A major
challenge for CAP is that this concept is not stressed enough, and so we get members who feel empowered to do whatever and wherever they
want, and we don't hold commanders to a hot enough fire on the responsibility for bad or improper behavior.

[lordmonar]

Ownership. 

Are they your senior members too?  You own them?

Yes.

[lordmonar]

Ok, so what happens when you ask an 18 year old cadet to see his report card and he informs you that he legally dropped out of school? Are you going to kick him out? What about a 20 year old cadet in college who refuses to show you?

No...because he legally dropped out of school.  If he dropped out illegally....i.e. just quit...then yes out he goes.....and he can't join as a SM because a high school deploma is a requirment for membership.

Once again, this regulation is CAP overreaching and pretending to be something we are not. We do not and can not control people's lives outside the couple hours a week they show up.

You are right...we can't CONTROL anyone in our out of CAP....but we do control who is IN CAP.

This is really beyond belief for me that you all really think it's up to you to correct cadets on academia. Are you at their school everyday helping them study? Do you have the time to tutor those cadets that are failing every class? What if cadet johhny john john actually brought UP his grades to a "D" average after finding CAP? Are you going to go cry to his parents that john john is dumb and we no longer want him around?

I don't want to correct them.  I simply want to work with their parents and make sure that CAP is not interfereing with what is really important....gettting a good education.  That is why I like the subjective nature of the reg.  It allows you to say....Little Johnny is not doing well in school....but he has a learning disability and CAP is a good for him and kicking him out will not help his school....so we can retain him.  But if Little Johnny is shirking his home work because he "has to do CAP" then we have a regulation that we can use to offically suspend him and or kick him out if we (CAP and his parents) think that is what is best for him.

[NCRblues]

Ok, so what happens when you ask an 18 year old cadet to see his report card and he informs you that he legally dropped out of school? Are you going to kick him out? What about a 20 year old cadet in college who refuses to show you?

No...because he legally dropped out of school.  If he dropped out illegally....i.e. just quit...then yes out he goes.....and he can't join as a SM because a high school deploma is a requirment for membership.

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

[bflynn]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

[Eclipse]

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

It's the subjective call of the respective commander.

[Eclipse]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

Interesting how this always seems to come up when you start holding people to expectations they don't agree with.

The situation is the same in corporate america, managers are supposed to be responsible for their people, including being included
in the remediation when then make mistakes.

Like it or not, the regulations, policies, and precedent is clear.  Members are free to vote with their feet if they don't agree.

[NCRblues]

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

It's the subjective call of the respective commander.

And yet it is not, because the regulations do not say that a cadet must be enrolled in school. They can not become SM's without a HS diploma, but a cadet under the law can drop out of high school. So when that cadet files suit against CAP, I hope your uniform looks nice to testify at.

[lordmonar]

Ok, so what happens when you ask an 18 year old cadet to see his report card and he informs you that he legally dropped out of school? Are you going to kick him out? What about a 20 year old cadet in college who refuses to show you?

No...because he legally dropped out of school.  If he dropped out illegally....i.e. just quit...then yes out he goes.....and he can't join as a SM because a high school deploma is a requirment for membership.

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

Well of course we just see this rule being used all the time don't we.  Of all the things we want to complain about with a commander having too much power......I think you are juct picking at straws.

[Eclipse]

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

It's the subjective call of the respective commander.

And yet it is not, because the regulations do not say that a cadet must be enrolled in school. They can not become SM's without a HS diploma, but a cadet under the law can drop out of high school. So when that cadet files suit against CAP, I hope your uniform looks nice to testify at.

Seriously - no weight to the argument, so you wave the "lawsuit flag"?  Not likely.

The reg says "(5) Failure to maintain a satisfactory academic school record."  Dropping out, legally or otherwise, certainly meet the definition of academic failure,  nor does it set the proper example for other cadets.  One CC may feel it's ground for termination, one may not, and higher HQ would be free to override the decision.  That's how it works when the regs are written, on purpose, in a subjective way.

[lordmonar]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

The leadership principle still apply.
The same sort of "personal involvement" crosses over into a lot of jobs.
Get a DUI and you may lose your job.
Bounce a check and you may lose your job.
If the job requirement is for you to go to school and maintain good grades....well they will ask for your transcripts.
Other agencies and organisations do this as well.  My son's soccer coach makes all the boys bring in their report cards.
My daughters viola instructor does the same.

We may not be the military.....but we an auxillary of the military....and we have standards....the are published and anyone can read them.  Now if you want to argue that the standards are too high or not high enough....okay let's talk.  But if you want to argue that we can't determine who we want in our organisation and don't have the right to back that up......I don't think you are going to get too far.

[bflynn]

The leadership principle still apply.

No, there are different ways to lead when you cannot force followers to follow.  At best, you get compliance out of volunteers.

There's also a huge difference between leadership and administration.

[lordmonar]

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

It's the subjective call of the respective commander.

And yet it is not, because the regulations do not say that a cadet must be enrolled in school. They can not become SM's without a HS diploma, but a cadet under the law can drop out of high school. So when that cadet files suit against CAP, I hope your uniform looks nice to testify at.

A.....CAP is not a right....you can't sue us to join.
B......If they have dropped of school....you should not be in CAP.  Sorry...that's how I feel.  Of course there are always exceptions to the rule....such as I said if you have legally qualified to drop out of school....then those same circumstances will probably make me happy....but in Nevada......if you qualifiy for one of them you probably don't have time for CAP anyway....and the issue would be moot.

[lordmonar]

The leadership principle still apply.

No, there are different ways to lead when you cannot force followers to follow.  At best, you get compliance out of volunteers.

There's also a huge difference between leadership and administration.

The leadership pricinple that you take an active intrest in your subordinates and wish for them to grow even out side the scope of the work enviornment is still a valid principle.

The tools are different in a volunteer organisation because we don't have the coercive element of military or employment leadership.  But taking an interest and taking a sense of ownership of your subordinates has nothing to do with leadership by force.....in fact if has everything to do with leadership by insperation!

[ßτε]

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

It's the subjective call of the respective commander.

And yet it is not, because the regulations do not say that a cadet must be enrolled in school. They can not become SM's without a HS diploma, but a cadet under the law can drop out of high school. So when that cadet files suit against CAP, I hope your uniform looks nice to testify at.

Actually the regulations do say just that. "Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement." So if a cadet is no longer in high school and doesn't have a diploma or equivalent, the cadet no longer meets this requirement.

Also, a clarification. A HS diploma is not required for membership for a SM. It is required for promotion to officer grades, however.

[lordmonar]

Also, a clarification. A HS diploma is not required for membership for a SM. It is required for promotion to officer grades, however.

You are right of course.....so you can join and remain a SMWOG or CAP NCO.

[NCRblues]

Actually the regulations do say just that. "Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement." So if a cadet is no longer in high school and doesn't have a diploma or equivalent, the cadet no longer meets this requirement.

Cite?

That quote is not in 35-3 or 52-16 so...? Unless I am missing it

EDIT: Nevermind... CAPR 39-2

And that is INITIAL membership...not continued membership.

[FlyTiger77]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

Perhaps it is telling that the leader of a squadron is called a "commander" and not the "squadron manager," "squadron supervisor," "squadron administrator" or "lead squadron technician."

To me, it indicates that as an auxilliary to a military branch, those who put together the program had in mind a certain mindset for the person entrusted to enforce the standards of the organization which all members agree to abide when they initially join the program and renew their membership.

[lordmonar]

Actually the regulations do say just that. "Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement." So if a cadet is no longer in high school and doesn't have a diploma or equivalent, the cadet no longer meets this requirement.

Cite?

That quote is not in 35-3 or 52-16 so...? Unless I am missing it

EDIT: Nevermind... CAPR 39-2

And that is INITIAL membership...not continued membership.

No....but 35-3 gives you grounds to terminate the membership if not satisfactory progressing academicly.

So...we are back to square one.....the only argument can be "what is definition of satisfactory"?

[Eclipse]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

Perhaps it is telling that the leader of a squadron is called a "commander" and not the "squadron manager," "squadron supervisor," "squadron administrator" or "lead squadron technician."

An excellent point - the head of a Boy Scout Troop is called a "Leader", the head of an echelon in CAP is a "Commander" - those words have specific
connotations and meaning, and in a CAP parlance the authority is based in regulations and the constitution.

[lordmonar]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

Perhaps it is telling that the leader of a squadron is called a "commander" and not the "squadron manager," "squadron supervisor," "squadron administrator" or "lead squadron technician."

An excellent point - the head of a Boy Scout Troop is called a "Leader", the head of an echelon in CAP is a "Commander" - those words have specific
connotations and meaning, and in a CAP parlance the authority is based in regulations and the constitution.

Actaully the head of a scout troop is a "MASTER"......but your point is taken.
The lead scout in a troop is the Senior Patrol Leader.

[Eclipse]

And that is INITIAL membership...not continued membership.

A hair to split for the argument, and not relevant to the discussion at hand, other than to support 35-3.

Anyone with "cadet" on their ID card is required to be performing satisfactorily in the subjective view of his commander, subject to remediation, delay of grade, and even termination in extreme cases.

[Eclipse]

Actually the head of a scout troop is a "MASTER"......but your point is taken.
The lead scout in a troop is the Senior Patrol Leader.

Ugh, it's been a while.

[arajca]

Actually the regulations do say just that. "Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement." So if a cadet is no longer in high school and doesn't have a diploma or equivalent, the cadet no longer meets this requirement.

Cite?

That quote is not in 35-3 or 52-16 so...? Unless I am missing it

EDIT: Nevermind... CAPR 39-2

And that is INITIAL membership...not continued membership.

No....but 35-3 gives you grounds to terminate the membership if not satisfactory progressing academicly.

So...we are back to square one.....the only argument can be "what is definition of satisfactory"?

IMHO, that's for mom and dad to decide. If a cadet was getting 'D's before and gets 'C' while in CAP, which makes mom and dad happy, is that satisfactory? On the flip side, the cadet who isg getting 'A's gets a 'B', which makes mom and dad unhappy, is that unsatisifctory? During our parental discussions, we point out the academic preformance requirement and let the parents and future cadets know the mom and dad make that call.

[Eclipse]

D's to C's are an improvement, and A's and B's are still more then satisfactory, neither situation would really fall into the area we're discussing, which would be more the "B's to D's" situation with the excuse that homework is not being done because of drill practice.

[lordmonar]

Actually the regulations do say just that. "Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement." So if a cadet is no longer in high school and doesn't have a diploma or equivalent, the cadet no longer meets this requirement.

Cite?

That quote is not in 35-3 or 52-16 so...? Unless I am missing it

EDIT: Nevermind... CAPR 39-2

And that is INITIAL membership...not continued membership.

No....but 35-3 gives you grounds to terminate the membership if not satisfactory progressing academicly.

So...we are back to square one.....the only argument can be "what is definition of satisfactory"?

IMHO, that's for mom and dad to decide. If a cadet was getting 'D's before and gets 'C' while in CAP, which makes mom and dad happy, is that satisfactory? On the flip side, the cadet who isg getting 'A's gets a 'B', which makes mom and dad unhappy, is that unsatisifctory? During our parental discussions, we point out the academic preformance requirement and let the parents and future cadets know the mom and dad make that call.

All well and good......but if Cadet Snuff is getting a string of D's I may be inclined to drop him from the program anyways.....but only after a conversation with the parents.  So no one is takeing them out of the loop....but as a squadron commander I would be maintaining the standards of the organisation.

Of course my 2b actions would be subject to wing approval and the all important appeals process.

[abdsp51]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

Then you should know and grasp the concept of responsibility for ones subordinates without questioning it.  CAP may not be the military, but it is a para-military organization and is funded through the AF like it or not.  There are standards that in place and should be adhered to with a visual of the entire dynamic.

As a supervisor it was policy that all new airmen were not allowed to pursue off-duty education until they did their Stan-eval and cdcs.  Then and only then were they allowed to pursue schooling.

And no here has said flat out kick them out for sub-par performance, but to look at the facts before doing acting.  IMO if there is a cadet under the age of 18 who is struggling in school and it CAP is having a negative impact on it then they need to take time off of CAP and focus on school.  As long as a cadet is showing improvement in an academic arena if that is a trouble spot then I would work with them and their parent/s. 

[bflynn]

There are standards that in place and should be adhered to with a visual of the entire dynamic.

If you go back through this discussion, you'll find that there is no disagreement of the standard, only how to achieve it and whose judgement of "satisfactory" to use.

CAP, especially old timers here, consistently fails to recognized the volunteer aspect of the organization.

[abdsp51]

There are standards that in place and should be adhered to with a visual of the entire dynamic.

If you go back through this discussion, you'll find that there is no disagreement of the standard, only how to achieve it and whose judgement of "satisfactory" to use.

CAP, especially old timers here, consistently fails to recognized the volunteer aspect of the organization.

No I think they get the volunteer aspect of it.  How to achieve it should be up to the Sq CC and those involved in the CP side of the house IMO.

[Major Carrales]

force ME to keep the cadet in MY squadron

My all time favorite line from CAP commanders... "My squadron". No, it's not YOUR squadron, you just happen to be in the commanders chair at this time. Its Civil Air Patrols squadron, you just happen to be the current cat herder....

I take issue with that.  When I say "my squadron," I mean it as in "the squadron to which I belong."  It is an emotional investment.  I have said my "my squadron" since I was a SMWOG.  It very much is "my squadron."  And it is the squadron of those that belong to it's rolls.

Now, in the context you say...there it is the manifestionation of MEGLOMANIA!!!  Well...that is some other guy.

[Major Carrales]

There have been many times where a less-than-stellar student...one mired in academic failure and behavior problems...starts popping their head into meetings and approaching, at first with mockery of the cadets and then with politness.

Then, they ask to join...

Slowly, they take to cadets.  The student, who is failing math and English/Language Arts...despite this, is writing reports on CAPF 109s that display excellent grammar (usually when they realize that people have to understand what they wrire) and are using trig functions to calculate rocketry equations for small informal competitions.

There is a "lag," for lack of a better word...between a cadet's CADET PROGRESS and those traits filtering to other aspects of life.  During that "lag" there are settling in effects. 

Sometimes fellow teachers come to me and expect me to discipline the student with a solid "What type of cadets do you have there?"  or "Have you no standards?"

I have to inform them that the cadet program is not an instant cure all.  Even in the cadet training materials it says that "integrity" cannot be endowed "over night."

Sometimes...we can't "save them," we can only hope to make a slight difference.  I want every cadet to look back on their CAP service and smile.

Also, I should say, we are not equiped to "turn people's life around."  I have often rejected a principal or parent's request to "fix" their child through harsh discipline.  I don't offer BOOT CAMP style instruction nor do I want to circumnavigate the assigned missions of CAP and the cadet proram for what amounts to SCHOOL COUNSELING or social work.  I don't have the credentials and training for that.

[jimmydeanno]

I  absolutely refer to the unit I command as "my unit."  I am the first commander that has actually put their name on the desk on the "Squadron Commander" desk plaque.  As a commander, it is important to take ownership of the unit you command.  It makes you more personally invested in the mission and success of the unit.  It doesn't signify that I "own" the people who give me their time and energy, but signifies that I have a responsibility to them, their progress, and their successes. 

My unit is indeed "my unit" because I am the one who's head is on the chopping block if it doesn't succeed.  It isn't me having some sort of superiority complex, its me taking accountability for our mission success.  YMMV.

[SARDOC]

If you go back through this discussion, you'll find that there is no disagreement of the standard, only how to achieve it and whose judgement of "satisfactory" to use.

CAP, especially old timers here, consistently fails to recognized the volunteer aspect of the organization.

I think you are making the assumption that if someone isn't a paid career employee that they can't be professional. 

When questioning the Judgement of a member because they are a volunteer, I think it might be you failing to recognize the volunteer aspect of the organization.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have been a member of multiple volunteer organizations, including CAP, and I can tell you volunteers can be the best resource in any organization. 

If a member has an issue with the judgement of what is "satisfactory" they have an appeals process and should avail themselves of it.  Volunteers are people, Commanders included and they can make mistakes.  That's why we have an appeals process.

[bflynn]

I think you are making the assumption that if someone isn't a paid career employee that they can't be professional. 

By definition, someone who is unpaid is not a professional - it's not an assumption, it just is.  That does not mean they cannot act professionally. 

What I was saying is that someone acting in a professional military leadership manner does not work the same with a volunteer organization.  There is an element of military leadership that uses the compulsive power of the leader - that doesn't exist in CAP any further than the member's desire to keep serving their community.  Leaders in CAP cannot compel followership through legal means.  There are those who who do not understand that. 

We are a different type of organization that needs a different leadership style than the military.

If a member has an issue with the judgement of what is "satisfactory" they have an appeals process and should avail themselves of it.  Volunteers are people, Commanders included and they can make mistakes.  That's why we have an appeals process.

The choices of whose judgement of satisfactory to use was  on the question of whether the organization should judge it or a parent.  I maintain that parents are responsible for raising their children, including what constitutes satisfactory academic progression.  Parents know their children best.

[Spaceman3750]

I think you are making the assumption that if someone isn't a paid career employee that they can't be professional. 

By definition, someone who is unpaid is not a professional - it's not an assumption, it just is.  That does not mean they cannot act professionally. 

What I was saying is that someone acting in a professional military leadership manner does not work the same with a volunteer organization.  There is an element of military leadership that uses the compulsive power of the leader - that doesn't exist in CAP any further than the member's desire to keep serving their community.  Leaders in CAP cannot compel followership through legal means.  There are those who who do not understand that. 

We are a different type of organization that needs a different leadership style than the military.

The age old question - is it better to rule by love or fear?

In CAP's case, the only way to do it is by love. As a young leader, that is hard for me to do at times. I have discovered that I am significantly less personable when put in stressful situations (some GT sorties as the GTL, for example). Therefore, while I may get immediate compliance from my followers in those situations, I am pushing them away from me for the future.

[abdsp51]

You do not need to be paid to be proffesional.  And ultimately it is upto the CC to decide if the potential cadet is accepted or not. 

Parents are ultimately responsible for their children across the board but they are not the final say for joining our or any organization.

[lordmonar]

I think you are making the assumption that if someone isn't a paid career employee that they can't be professional. 

By definition, someone who is unpaid is not a professional - it's not an assumption, it just is.  That does not mean they cannot act professionally.

Sorry...have to disagree.  A profession is a vocation...a calling....it does not have anything to do with employment.....although your profession is often your employment.

[lordmonar]

The choices of whose judgement of satisfactory to use was  on the question of whether the organization should judge it or a parent.  I maintain that parents are responsible for raising their children, including what constitutes satisfactory academic progression.  Parents know their children best.

I agree......to a point.  The unit commander is still the primary guardian of CAP's standards.  Because CAP does not want stupid kids in our program.   If Little Johnny is getting straight D's in school.....we can kick him out.  We may not want that type of person in CAP.  This is not about what is best for the cadet...this is about what's best for CAP.

Now.....having said that.....I as a long time CP guy.....would not and do not advocate setting a more or less arbitrary standard "you must have a 2.0 GPA).  I do advocate that we routinely look at our cadet's grades and IF........IF they are struggeling in school.....we GET WITH THEIR PARENTS and see if CAP is contributing to the bad grades and what affect it may have on the cadet if they were suspended or kicked out.

[bflynn]

The age old question - is it better to rule by love or fear?

In CAP's case, the only way to do it is by love. As a young leader, that is hard for me to do at times. I have discovered that I am significantly less personable when put in stressful situations (some GT sorties as the GTL, for example). Therefore, while I may get immediate compliance from my followers in those situations, I am pushing them away from me for the future.

That's all I was saying - thank you for saying it better.

Sorry...have to disagree.  A profession is a vocation...a calling....it does not have anything to do with employment.....although your profession is often your employment.

You disagree that a professional (noun) is someone who gets paid for what they do?  You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the dictionary.  You can do that, it doesn't bother me.  There's room for many different ways of seeing things, we are all different people.

[ßτε]

You disagree that a professional (noun) is someone who gets paid for what they do?  You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the dictionary.  You can do that, it doesn't bother me.  There's room for many different ways of seeing things, we are all different people.

We don't disagree with that definition. However, it is not the only definition, and not the one being used in this context. What I don't understand is your insistence in using a very narrow definition and how you criticize others for using a word in a different context.

[bflynn]

Other definitions of professional are adjectives.

I've been accused of being too general, that people don't understand me when I say something in a general sense.  So I'm attempting to be precise - the is a difference between acting professionaly (adj) and being a professional (noun).

Very few here are professionals when it comes to CAP.  Everyone can act professionally.

The last point I wanted to make was that I believe a professional military attidude is harmful to CAP.  But for some reason, people don't want to hear that.

[johnnyb47]

Merriam-Webster says:

1
a: of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b: engaged in one of the learned professions c (1): characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2): exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace

2
a: participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b: having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c: engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

3
: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>

[Eclipse]

The last point I wanted to make was that I believe a professional military attidude is harmful to CAP.  But for some reason, people don't want to hear that.

When you have some experience with leading people in CAP you will understand how wrong that statement is.

[bflynn]

Yes, well Webster is using professionally to define professional.  That's bad form.  I used a different dictionary.

In any case - I'd like the emphasis to be on whether or not professional military leadership is harmful to CAP.

I think just leadership works regardless of what the situation is.

[lordmonar]

You disagree that a professional (noun) is someone who gets paid for what they do?  You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the dictionary.  You can do that, it doesn't bother me.  There's room for many different ways of seeing things, we are all different people.

professional
pro•fes•sion•al
adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer. 
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: "A salesman," he said, "is a professional optimist."
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
noun
10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, especially one of the learned professions.
11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

As with many things......there are seveal definitions.  While getting paid is usually an indicator of a Professional......to differentiate from an amatuer......but there are also professionals who are unpaid. See definition 10, 12, and 13 as opposed to definition 11.

[Eclipse]

redundant to the above.

[FlyTiger77]

In any case - I'd like the emphasis to be on whether or not professional military leadership is harmful to CAP.

I will go on record as thinking that your definition of "professional military leadership" is narrow and skewed if you think its principles can not be used successfully in CAP.

I believe you have indicated that your background is in the underwater USN and I have no idea how they do things there. Where I come from, very successful military leaders rarely resort to fear and/or coercion to accomplish their missions. Unless I am mistaken, I understand that you believe this fear/coercion method is "Professional Military Leadership" and that is foreign to the vast majority of my experience over the last 20-some odd years.

People who get their understanding of military leadership from Hollywood drivel will not be successful trying to use those techniques in the military much less in CAP.

Obviously, there are times when very directed, one-way conversations take place in military organizations, but they are the exception and not the norm.

Finally, as was stated by several people above, commanders are the gate keepers for enforcing CAP standards among those who do not enforce (or embrace) them themselves. Volunteer status does not excuse members from adhering to the standards of the organization. A group of people doing as they wish without standards is a mob.

Feel free to resume your discussion of semantics and dictionary construction at your leisure.

[abdsp51]

Professional military leadership harmful I must be missing something.  In all my units that was what was used and it is what I use here.  Now certain styles of military leadership may be a detriment to the unit but I doubt military leadership is completely.

[caphornbuckle]

I think this has drifted off topic.

I feel that if a cadet and his/her parents know upfront what the academic expectations are for them to retain their cadet membership then there aren't any issues to worry about.  Each unit is responsible for organizing a membership committee and, IMO can set guidelines for what is considered a "satisfactory academic record".

During the prospective cadet's initial visit with the parent(s), it should be stated that they are required to maintain a "C" average or whatever is determined for the unit.  Then it should be explained the steps that will be taken if they fall below that average (ie.  counseling, tutoring, etc) before they are terminated.

If everything is brought up before the membership begins then it is the cadet's as well as his/her parents to decide whether or not they should participate in CAP.  That takes the load of responsibility off the commander and the rest of the staff and places it right in the cadets and parents laps because they knew what the expectations were before they even started.

[SARDOC]

I feel that if a cadet and his/her parents know upfront what the academic expectations are for them to retain their cadet membership then there aren't any issues to worry about.  Each unit is responsible for organizing a membership committee and, IMO can set guidelines for what is considered a "satisfactory academic record".

During the prospective cadet's initial visit with the parent(s), it should be stated that they are required to maintain a "C" average or whatever is determined for the unit.  Then it should be explained the steps that will be taken if they fall below that average (ie.  counseling, tutoring, etc) before they are terminated.

If everything is brought up before the membership begins then it is the cadet's as well as his/her parents to decide whether or not they should participate in CAP.  That takes the load of responsibility off the commander and the rest of the staff and places it right in the cadets and parents laps because they knew what the expectations were before they even started.

It's not a bad thing to lay out those kind of Expectation right from the very beginning.  Not every Unit is "responsible" for having a Membership Committee however.  I know a number of units that don't, so determining if a member is suitable for you unit is the responsibility of the Unit Commander.

Which brings us back to the Professional (Adj.) Judgement of the Squadron Commander.

The Parents of the Cadets are ultimately responsible for the education of their Children and do indeed know their Children best.  I know if my Children were suffering academically, I would suspend all extracurricular activities until the problem was corrected.  That's not the point of this discussion.  Nobody is limiting the rights of the parents that they exercise over their children.

It's a required part of the CAP program that not only that a Cadet progress "satisfactorily" in the program but that they do it while also "satisfactorily" performing Academically.  I would hope that a Commander would consult the parents before taking any action.  For Example, my squadron has a member that has a documented severe learning disability to the point that he must attend a special school.  He has trouble passing the written CAP tests but otherwise is doing great.  We are in discussion with his primary instructor in school about becoming an AEM and have her incorporate some AE into his weekly lesson plan.  So our unit commander is providing a lot of leeway in his performance but still within CAP regulations, so we can see how he does.