CAC

[Masterone]

I'm on the CAC as a secondary person, ill be honest, I don't know how the primary got the primary spot, he barely participates and puts any input into the conversations he just sits back and does nothing, meanwhile I participate and put forth the effort. That's not my beef though, what is is that I want to continue in the CAC and move up to the wing level, but from my understanding of the rules only the primary can. Any suggestions?

[lordmonar]

The "rule" is that the commander at each level chooses his primary and alternate.

If you want to be your squadron primary....talk to your commander or DCC about your primary.

That simple.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Besides talking (and getting a ribbon after a year as a Primary), what else does your CAC do?

[DakRadz]

Also, there is a large push to have cadet officers in CAC- does the primary outrank you? Not saying that you're wrong or that you couldn't be put as the primary, but the original decision may have been made based on rank.

My CAC actually attempts to plan events at Group level such as Model Rocketry weekends, cadet SAREXs (where it's aimed at cadets participating with SM supervision), and maybe even a Military Ball.

And of course we forward suggestions up the chain, but it's easier to use it as a cadet planning forum as well, since most Cadet Commanders are on Group CAC.

[Майор Хаткевич]

And of course we forward suggestions up the chain, but it's easier to use it as a cadet planning forum as well, since most Cadet Commanders are on Group CAC.

That is not the intention of the CAC. Actually, given what the CAC is supposed to be, it's not much of anything...

[Eclipse]

My CAC actually attempts to plan events at Group level such as Model Rocketry weekends, cadet SAREXs (where it's aimed at cadets participating with SM supervision), and maybe even a Military Ball.

The "A" stands for "Advisory", not "Activity".

[DakRadz]

Okay, if we have to go that route...

The CAC advises. That takes... very little time. At the Group level, we are fairly like-minded (though I'm sure this isn't the case for everyone); decide what to advise on, and then we're done.

So then we pronounce the meeting over, change hats (or remove cords?) and act in capacity as the Group's ranking cadets and plan useful activities (other than the Mil Ball, which is low on priority list).
In all honesty, that was about the route the last CAC meeting took.

I guess this is the point of the "why have a CAC" argument. But if it were changed so that it could get cadets together and allow them to plan activities at their level, share best practices, etc., it might work out better.

[arajca]

WIWAC, the CAC actually ADVISED the wing commander on the cadet perspective of various policy and potential policies coming up. Wing commander tells CAC about a policy change. CAC goes back to their units and discusses the issue with the appropriate cadets (usually phase II and above). CAC meets at a specified location, compares notes, and writes up their report. CAC Secretary types up report (this was before everyone had computers). Next meeting, CAC reviews report (proof-read), CAC Chair signed it and sent it to the wing commander.

Lots of time spent for some, IMHO, well written reports. Until we found out the wing commander round filed the reports almost as soon as he got them.

[a2capt]

If done right, the CAC should be more than a 5 minute meeting. From that description, that sounds like a bunch of cadets that don't get it and instead are forming a clique of sorts.. 

..and that certainly does sound familiar ;-)

Sadly.. .

[Ned]

It is critical that the commander being supported (group, wing, etc.) actually identify topics and areas of concern, and communicate these to the CAC.

(And if the commander is having problems identifying the appropriate issues, the DCP and/or CAC senior advisor should be ready with a suggested list of areas of current concern for the commander's consideration.)

Once the commander has provided the areas/topics, the chair (working closely with the senior advisor) should structure the meeting to provide meaningful advice, which normally comes to the commander in the form of a position paper or similar presentation, supported by facts or other data.

This could be as simple as the wing commander asking what her/his position should be on the CP-related items on the upcoming NB agenda.

Or as complex a problem as asking for three specific suggestions that could be implemented at this echelon to improve cadet retention.


But it should never be just an unstructured meeting where the cadets offer unsolicted advice which is not recorded or otherwise transmitted in a useful format to the supported commander.

And I have always thought that it never hurts to ensure the meeting is useful, educational, and - just as importantly - fun.

Ned Lee
Senior Advisor to the NCAC

[arajca]

If done right, the CAC should be more than a 5 minute meeting. From that description, that sounds like a bunch of cadets that don't get it and instead are forming a clique of sorts.. 

..and that certainly does sound familiar ;-)

Sadly.. .

I'd argue that point. If the commander asks for a cadet viewpoint on policy XYZ, it'll take more than five minutes to come to an agreement on it. Yes, alot can be done electronically, but there's nothing like a face-to-face brawldiscussion to reach an appropriate response.

[titanII]

there's nothing like a face-to-face brawldiscussion to reach an appropriate response.

I lol'd 

[BillB]

There is nothinbg to prevent a Group CAC to plan training for cadets. Under CAPR 52-16 n7-1 C and 7-3 A, cadets can plan training and submit the activity paper to the Group CC for approval. They can not however plan and run the activity such as a training bivouac without the Group CC approval. While they can plan the activity, the problem is finding Senior Members for the instruction and control of the event. Thus quite often while the activity is worthwhile, the Group CC will not give the approval and staffing needed. Over the years since the 1950's when the original CAC was authorized, the duties and responsibilities of thre CAC has been downgraded, watered down if you wish.

[Ned]

There is nothinbg to prevent a Group CAC to plan training for cadets.

Of course.  There is nothing to prevent them from taking CPPT or going to a movie, either.

It just has nothing to do with the CAC's mission or structure.

Indeed, using a CAC to try to "plan" or conduct activities teaches all the wrong lessons.  If for no other reason than it would be difficult to imagine a a more poorly-designed structure to carry out detailed staff planning functions.

1.  CAC members were (presumeably) selected for their abilities to act as representatives for the unit, not their planning ability.
2.  The CAC leader (chair) does not have the ability to hire or fire the members of the group.  Each CAC member is accountable to their appointing authority, not the chair.
3.  The CAC leader does not have the ability to direct or supervise the CAC members outside of the meeting.
4.  The CAC leader cannot reward or punish the CAC members for good or poor performance as planners.
5.  All of the time the CAC spends planning or implementing activities could and should be spent actually performing their prescribed duties.

Using them to try to plan an activity just teaches them that the CAC is a poor vehicle to plan activities.  Not a totally useless lesson, but clearly not worth the frustration and negative attitudes generated. 

Please don't reinvent the wheel or use the wrong tool for a given job.

CACs, per the CAPR 52-16 and as thoroughly explained in the excellent CAPP 52-19 do three things:

1.  Provide an opportunity for cadets to gain leadership experience at higher organizational levels.
2.  Aid the commander in monitoring and implementing the cadet program.
3.  Make recommendations for improving the cadet program.

[a2capt]

Thank you, Ned.

I mean, you could have fooled me, where I've experienced garbage going on where the Chair has pretty much convinced themselves that they are a unit echelon and they have command over subordinates, complete with retaliation and retribution. Obviously the intention was for a group of cadets to be more like the House of Representatives, and create channels of communication from their constituents to their higher command.

[NCRblues]

Ned, I hate to be a stick in the mud but...

Your post is the reason CAC is dead and or on the way to being dead in many areas around the country. NCR still does not have a chair (it's listed as a c/Lt. Col, who is now a SM Capt. and squadron commander) and I don't see one coming down the line.

Why not use the CAC to help plan activities. Cadets know what they want to do. If all we can use the CAC for is to advise the commander on issues, than we might as well disband it on anything lower than national level.

A face to face meeting to do only what you described for many wings is worthless to say the least.

Our CAC recommends activities they would like to see done, and then helps plan them. I see nothing wrong with this; it keeps the CAC reps in the loop about the goings on of wing CP. They can then go back to the home squadron and inform that unit of the upcoming things and functions....not a bad deal if you ask me.

[Eclipse]

Thank you, Ned.

I mean, you could have fooled me, where I've experienced garbage going on where the Chair has pretty much convinced themselves that they are a unit echelon and they have command over subordinates, complete with retaliation and retribution. Obviously the intention was for a group of cadets to be more like the House of Representatives, and create channels of communication from their constituents to their higher command.

The problem comes with poor leadership from the Senior Advisers.   In many cases they know less about the cadet program then the cadets, but "someone had to unlock the building".

[a2capt]

The problem comes with poor leadership from the Senior Advisers.

Oh, I don't disagree there one bit. In fact, thats a prime argument as to why some of these hard core, hard cool cadets turned senior member should NOT be appointed CP positions, or become unit commanders even, except in special, well thought out cases,  for a couple years or so, after they've explored other parts of CAP. Because they hang on to that "I want to be a cadet", when sorry, the timer ran out. Just like the program existed before you came along, it will continue to exist after. There are others in the pipeline.

Thats when the clique/social club mentality starts and then it's a big downhill slide from there until someone does something stupid, or a leadership change becomes incompatible with it, and they break it up by appointing someone who understands what the goals and intentions of the program really are.

[Eclipse]

I know more than a few "seniors" in their 30's(+) who have never made the mental transition from being a cadet.
The realities of being young and headstrong don't make it any easier - there's noting like being a newly minted Senior Member
to really be able to "get things done with those troublesome cadets I was in ranks with yesterday...".

Most adults know how to deal appropriately with these situations, but cadets look upon these god-like creatures with awe and will
walk into a spinning prop before averting their gaze.

[lordmonar]

Ned, I hate to be a stick in the mud but...

Your post is the reason CAC is dead and or on the way to being dead in many areas around the country. NCR still does not have a chair (it's listed as a c/Lt. Col, who is now a SM Capt. and squadron commander) and I don't see one coming down the line.

Why not use the CAC to help plan activities. Cadets know what they want to do. If all we can use the CAC for is to advise the commander on issues, than we might as well disband it on anything lower than national level.

Because they have no authority, they are outside the chain of command, and that is not their job.

[Ned]

I don't quote myself often, but this seems on-point:

A CAC generally rises or sinks to the level of expectations and support provided by the echelon commander.

Too many commanders just approach the CAC as an item on the CI/SUI checklist and are happy as long as they have one and the cadets don't bother them too much.

Just like any other part of the cadet program, a crappy cadet program is not the fault of the cadets or funky regulatory guidance, but rather a failure on the part of the CP officers who are responsible for the program. 

I have never seen a small, struggling squadron that had 4 or more master-rated CP officers actively engaged, but suffered from "bad cadets" or a lack of support from above.  But I have seen too many small struggling units without enough qualified senior support.

CACs are no different.  Put them off in a room with an unqualified senior advisor (or no senior at all) and no quidance beyond "dazzle me with your advice" and they will in all probablilty be unsuccessful.

If a vital and successful CAC is part of a commander's vision, and that vision is successfully communicated to subordinate commanders, it is more likely to be successful.  A CAC needs to be supported with a qualifed, motivated Senior Advisor.  And both subordinate commanders and the CAC advisor need to clearly hear how important a successful CAC is to the boss.  A successful CAC should be a "report card" item for these officers, and especially the advisor.

If you currently have a sub-optimal CAC, engage them with specific taskings.  Simple at first, then more complicated as they mature organizationally.  The whole "crawl, walk, run" thing.




Here's a quick list of suitable CAC taskings, some simple; some more complex:

1.  My personnel officer says first year cadet retention is at 33%.  I need 5 specific ideas on how to increase that to 50%.

2.  Last year, only X number of cadet officers applied for NCSAs compared to Y the year before.  I am concerned about the decline.  Please tell me 3 things I can do to increase the NCSA application rate from our wing.

3.  In our wing/group, unit A is doing a lot of ES training, unit B is into model rocketry, unit C is doing a lot of AE in the local schools.  What activities could we schedule that would support all three units?

4.  On the national website, the following proposed regulations have been posted for comment (xx-x, yy-y, zz-z.)  I think they may impact the cadet program, but I'm not sure how.  Please analyze the regulation and tell me how you feel it will affect the cadet program.

5.  What would be the best way for this command to engage in Wreaths Across America / Red Ribbon?

6.  Should this command engage in joint activities with the US Army Cadet Corps / US Naval Sea Cadets / Young Marines?  Why or why not?  If so, what sorts of activities should they be?

7.  We clearly need better ways to retain cadets in the 18-21 year age group and engage them in CP.  Give me three specific suggestions we could do in this command to help?

8.  Is there a need for an Honor Guard program in this command?  Why or why not?

9.  Historically, this command has been lagging / about average / above average in implementing  DDR.  I need five specific ideas that can be implemented in this command that will improve on this record.

10.  I would like to increase the number of minority / disabled / insert an under-represented catagory here cadets.  Please provide a half-dozen specific suggestions on how to reach out to these communities for recruiting purposes.

[Ron1319]

I agree that if the CAC duties are happening very quickly (short meetings) then the CAC is not being appropriately directed.  I want to object to it being blamed on senior leadership.  We're working on growing our Phase IV cadets to have the vision to determine their own direction.  My CAC days were entirely cadet run.  Our group CAC did do a fair amount of activity planning in addition to providing cadet feedback to the group commander and providing information during the group commander's call.

[Masterone]

DakRadz
no he does not outrank me, i outrank him.

to all,
Thank you guys for the input on how to move up in the CAC, not being the primary. but i would also like to give a public appology because in my initial post, I said the cadet never participated and such, which is not all true at all he does participate. I let my anger get the best of me, and that was completely unprofessional. He is a very good cadet. Let this also be a lesson to other members and not post when your angry or emotionally distressed. You might end up saying something that is not true, exagerated, or something that is innapropriate. I will not say his name due to privacy matters.

to the cadt it concerns,
I am sorry for what i said.

[Masterone]

^
please ignore my spelling errors. thanks

[Майор Хаткевич]

^
please ignore my spelling errors. thanks

Why not just fix them?

[Masterone]

^
please ignore my spelling errors. thanks

Why not just fix them?

I missed some of them and noticed them after I posted it. I cant fix what i already posted.

[a2capt]

But.. you can edit, though maybe they've turned it off for less than X amount of posts, all together. Seems they've turned it off after X amount of time, too. Perhaps due to the last rash of post deletion attempts. Sucks it ruins it for everyone, on the count of a few.
But it's in the upper right of the post:

[SarDragon]

Another really useful feature is the Preview button. It allows you to see what a post will look like, before you actually submit it. It's just to the right of the Post button.

[Eclipse]

Also, advanced web browsers have integrated spell-check.

[davidsinn]

Also, advanced web browsers have integrated spell-check.

FireFox's doesn't work very well on this forum for some reason. It's only CT that I have this problem on.

[Eclipse]

FireFox's doesn't work very well on this forum for some reason. It's only CT that I have this problem on.

I said advanced browsers...

[Spaceman3750]

FireFox's doesn't work very well on this forum for some reason. It's only CT that I have this problem on.

I said advanced browsers...

To most of the world that includes more than Chrome :angel: . Though I do like Chrome on Win7 (at home), the ad blocking extensions don't work all that hot on OSX (at work).

Also, I don't have any issues with spellcheck using FireFox on this forum. In fact, right now it's nagging me about "davidsinn", "FireFox", "spellcheck", and "OSX".

[davidsinn]

FireFox's doesn't work very well on this forum for some reason. It's only CT that I have this problem on.

I said advanced browsers...

To most of the world that includes more than Chrome :angel: . Though I do like Chrome on Win7 (at home), the ad blocking extensions don't work all that hot on OSX (at work).

Also, I don't have any issues with spellcheck using FireFox on this forum. In fact, right now it's nagging me about "davidsinn", "FireFox", "spellcheck", and "OSX".

It nags just fine. When I try to click on the mispelled word I do not get the suggestions. I have to click down and left of the word to get them. It's not my computer because I built a new one last month and upgraded to Win 7-64 from XP pro32 and still have the problem. Every other page I go to works fine. It's just this one.

[Spaceman3750]

FireFox's doesn't work very well on this forum for some reason. It's only CT that I have this problem on.

I said advanced browsers...

To most of the world that includes more than Chrome :angel: . Though I do like Chrome on Win7 (at home), the ad blocking extensions don't work all that hot on OSX (at work).

Also, I don't have any issues with spellcheck using FireFox on this forum. In fact, right now it's nagging me about "davidsinn", "FireFox", "spellcheck", and "OSX".

It nags just fine. When I try to click on the mispelled word I do not get the suggestions. I have to click down and left of the word to get them. It's not my computer because I built a new one last month and upgraded to Win 7-64 from XP pro32 and still have the problem. Every other page I go to works fine. It's just this one.

Hm. Works fine here, I will have to try it at home on Win7...

I now return you to you regularly scheduled thread derailment.

[Майор Хаткевич]

It stopped working at some point, then started again, now stopped again. I can't even get the list of suggestions, no matter WHERE I click around anymore...

[SarDragon]

Also, advanced web browsers have integrated spell-check.

FireFox's doesn't work very well on this forum for some reason. It's only CT that I have this problem on.

I use Firefox almost exclusively, and I don't think I've ever had a problem with the integrated spell checker on here. I catches all my misteaks mistakes just fine. However, you're on your own for selecting the correct words in the first place, like "its" vs. "it's", "your" vs. "you're", etc.

[davidsinn]

Also, advanced web browsers have integrated spell-check.

FireFox's doesn't work very well on this forum for some reason. It's only CT that I have this problem on.

I use Firefox almost exclusively, and I don't think I've ever had a problem with the integrated spell checker on here. I catches all my misteaks mistakes just fine. However, you're on your own for selecting the correct words in the first place, like "its" vs. "it's", "your" vs. "you're", etc.

Well that's interesting. It's working like it's supposed to now.

[Майор Хаткевич]

It typically works in quick reply, but not in a full reply window. Go figure.

[Eclipse]

It typically works in quick reply, but not in a full reply window. Go figure.

What's the difference?  I only see "reply".

[Майор Хаткевич]

Quick reply is the little area at the bottom of the topic, which I use when I'm "up to date" on a topic. If I want to quote someone, I'll typically click "reply" in their post, thus taking me to the full reply window. THERE it seems my FF fails.

[SarDragon]

Quick reply is the little area at the bottom of the topic, which I use when I'm "up to date" on a topic. If I want to quote someone, I'll typically click "reply" in their post, thus taking me to the full reply window. THERE it seems my FF fails.

Interesting. I see what you mean. In Quote (my usual reply style) and Quick Reply, right clicking directly on the misspelled word will bring up correction choices. I need to click underneath the misspelled word in order to see the same choices in Reply, and that only seems to work when there's no text line underneath.

If you want to quote a post, click the Quote button.

[Eclipse]

I seriously don't see Quickreply.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I seriously don't see Quickreply.

Maybe this line of the conversation needs to be moved to the support subforum.

[Tim Medeiros]

wow, you either have a small screen or a HUGE task bar.

[Spaceman3750]

wow, you either have a small screen or a HUGE task bar.

It looks like he's on a netbook.

[davidsinn]

I seriously don't see Quickreply.

Maybe this line of the conversation needs to be moved to the support subforum.

I don't have that at all.

[Spaceman3750]

Go to Profile -> Look and Layout and set "Use quick reply on topic display" to "show, on by default".

[Майор Хаткевич]

wow, you either have a small screen or a HUGE task bar.

It looks like he's on a netbook.

Bingo.

Didn't realize some folks have the quickreply turned off...