Contraband at Cadet Activities

[DakRadz]

How about the opposite approach?  How about creating an "adult cadet" category for cadets over the age of 18 with different supervisory requirements?

In all seriousness- for those who want this status, we have Flight Officers, and there's even a chance for promotion...

[Ned]

How about creating an "adult cadet" category for cadets over the age of 18 with different supervisory requirements?  ( . . .)  Wouldn't that alleviate much of the legal issue and create less liability for CAP, Inc?  It seems like it's the way it is because that's the way it's always been, and that our own rules and over-control of adult cadets is causing much of the problem.

I get regular briefings on current litigation, mishaps, and investigations.  And I just got done with my tour as the National Cadet Advisor with pretty good access to these kinds of issues in the administrative chain.

And I don't see the current situation as an issue.  Indeed, it seems kind of successful to me.  We don't have lots of lawsuits, complaints or issues.

I hear your assertion that we have an "over-control" issue with our older cadets and you believe that this is affecting retention.  That is certainly reasonable.

But my experience doesn't support it.  I understand we are looking at different pieces of a rather large pie, and maybe I'm just missing the groundswell of concern being expressed by the 18+ crowd.  But the NCAC hasn't brought this forward.  Nor am I hearing this from the field.

Obviously you may well be correct, but it would help to develop some sort of data to support the position.  We can and should make changes to program as necessary to improve it.  And I can only agree that we should not be unnecessarily restrictive when we don't have to be.

[Ron1319]

How about the opposite approach?  How about creating an "adult cadet" category for cadets over the age of 18 with different supervisory requirements?

In all seriousness- for those who want this status, we have Flight Officers, and there's even a chance for promotion...

I'm a Captain and going to be a Major as soon as the time in grade time passes.  I'd like to state again that I think I should get credit for my time in grade as a Captain in 2000 and 2001, but whatever.  I'm 100% positive that I have nowhere near the ability to influence the cadet program now that I did as a 20 year old c/Col, and can't forsee having that ability in the near future.  I can provide support for my unit and the group and hope to grow c/Col's who will have that opportunity to influence the program, but I wouldn't be able to give them that support on the same level without having been in that position.  To have given up that experience for FO grade would have sacrificed a lot with no upside that I can see, at least none that couldn't be remedied by some fairly minor seeming rule changes.

Meanwhile, Ned, your response is excellent.  I'll continue to observe and try to provide specific current examples.  What I do know (for sure) is that my unit commander said that they had not previously had cadets who were 18+ because they didn't have experience with them, didn't really know what they would do and basically it hadn't been encouraged.  I realize that's a different context than this discussion, but even easier to fix by anyone reading this who is in a command position through discussions with the right people.  If anyone else has some specific current examples, I'd love to hear about them, especially from cadet officers.

[Al Sayre]

How about the opposite approach?  How about creating an "adult cadet" category for cadets over the age of 18 with different supervisory requirements?

In all seriousness- for those who want this status, we have Flight Officers, and there's even a chance for promotion...

One of the problems with that is that an 18-19 Yr old Cadet Officer who is still in High School becomes simply a Senior Member and can't be promoted to any FO grade until they finish HS per CAPR 35-5 Sect 1.6.  I have a couple of 18 yr old cadets in that situation in my squadron.

[DakRadz]

How about the opposite approach?  How about creating an "adult cadet" category for cadets over the age of 18 with different supervisory requirements?

In all seriousness- for those who want this status, we have Flight Officers, and there's even a chance for promotion...

One of the problems with that is that an 18-19 Yr old Cadet Officer who is still in High School becomes simply a Senior Member and can't be promoted to any FO grade until they finish HS per CAPR 35-5 Sect 1.6.  I have a couple of 18 yr old cadets in that situation in my squadron.

Oh... Because of the diploma/GED requirement for SMs?

[Al Sayre]

Yep

[Cool Mace]

If anyone else has some specific current examples, I'd love to hear about them, especially from cadet officers.
[/quote]

It's funny you bring this up. My DCC and I have been talking a lot about this kind of stuff.

We were talking about cadets that turn 18 will move to a type (for lack of better words) of Sr. status, but hold the cadet rank so they will be able to to go for their Spaatz. When at activities, they will be treated as Sr.'s would, but with the same positions as cadets. Why? Look at CPP. How am I (a cadet that will be 20 in two months) any different the the 45 year old Sr. over there when it comes to CPP? Say I want to go take a shower at encampment. Well if there's a 14 year old flight sergeant in there, I'm sure as hell not going yet. Why? CPP again. All he has to do is I said or looked at him weird, and I'm done for. Doesn't matter if I'm a cadet or not. I would much rather shower with the 45, 50 or whatever Sr. just so I don't have to worry about stuff like that.

Also, there's a big difference when it comes to 14 year old staff, and 18 + cadets.

So why not end the CP at 18? I've learned way too much after I've turned 18 in the CP. Stuff I couldn't learn as a Sr. Like last summers encampment. I was the C/CC, and I learned more from that then from anything else I've done in CAP.
I wouldn't have been able to do that if I turned Sr. at 18.

Just my 2 cents.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If anyone else has some specific current examples, I'd love to hear about them, especially from cadet officers.

It's funny you bring this up. My DCC and I have been talking a lot about this kind of stuff.

We were talking about cadets that turn 18 will move to a type (for lack of better words) of Sr. status, but hold the cadet rank so they will be able to to go for their Spaatz. When at activities, they will be treated as Sr.'s would, but with the same positions as cadets. Why? Look at CPP. How am I (a cadet that will be 20 in two months) any different the the 45 year old Sr. over there when it comes to CPP? Say I want to go take a shower at encampment. Well if there's a 14 year old flight sergeant in there, I'm sure as hell not going yet. Why? CPP again. All he has to do is I said or looked at him weird, and I'm done for. Doesn't matter if I'm a cadet or not. I would much rather shower with the 45, 50 or whatever Sr. just so I don't have to worry about stuff like that.

Also, there's a big difference when it comes to 14 year old staff, and 18 + cadets.

So why not end the CP at 18? I've learned way too much after I've turned 18 in the CP. Stuff I couldn't learn as a Sr. Like last summers encampment. I was the C/CC, and I learned more from that then from anything else I've done in CAP.
I wouldn't have been able to do that if I turned Sr. at 18.

Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]
I do kind of agree, once CPP enters into your training, your kinda done with being a cadet all the way.

[Ron1319]

Treated as a senior in what ways?

[a2capt]

The next one of you to quote, should count the tags.

[Cool Mace]

Treated as a senior in what ways?

(counted the tags )

Follow the the Sr. program as far as tracks go... Besides the ones cadets can already do, ES, safety, ect...
But still be able to work on achievments such as going for their Spaatz.

I don't personally don't like sharing a bay (such as at encampment) with staff that's 14, 15 years old. Why? a few reasons, one being CPP. Also? There's a big difference in age compared to a 14 y/o and a 18, 19 and 20 y/o cadet.
How they act, things they talk about (granted cadets and Sr.'s alike should always watch what they talk about, just saying, ya know?). I don't even like changing from PT to BDU's to Blues, or whatever with them around. I know nothing will happen, but I'm still a legal adult no matter being a cadet or not.

[Eclipse]

Sorry - you're either a cadet or a senior - you don't get to be a "maxi-cadet" or a "mini-senior" and drink from both troughs.

I think cutting off cadets at 18, especially without some relaxation of the current time-between-grades, would basically end the
Spaatz program.  It might be interesting to see how many Spaatz cadets achieved the award between 18 & 21, but certainly
in my personal experience the lion's share has been over 18.

I would, however, be in favor of some increased real responsibility for older cadets, in allowing them to self-supervise and
supervise other cadets, but that is a mine-field of unnecessary potential liability.  For every mature 18 year old, there are
10 who still act 15.

I reject the notion that this is even an issue outside discussion forums.  The older cadets I deal with regularly "get it" and move on.

[Ron1319]

Yes, but they're already not the ones who are the problem.  They're already older cadets.  They already have senior support that respects them and encourages them to continue to grow and probably also have role models who are 18+ cadets.  Did we lose 3x as many for whom it was a problem but did not have a forum in which to address their problems? 

I can only come up with a list of three cadets over 18 in this group and they're all in my squadron and have turned 18 since we've rejoined and influenced the squadron.  I'm not saying that there has to be regulation change to effect change in this area, but I'm 99% sure that something was broken here and is fundamentally not quite perfect when it comes to the regulations. 

Thinking back, I did get to be a lot more like a "mini-senior" for a fairly long time. 

[wacapgh]

If anyone else has some specific current examples, I'd love to hear about them, especially from cadet officers.

It's funny you bring this up. My DCC and I have been talking a lot about this kind of stuff.

We were talking about cadets that turn 18 will move to a type (for lack of better words) of Sr. status, but hold the cadet rank so they will be able to to go for their Spaatz. When at activities, they will be treated as Sr.'s would, but with the same positions as cadets.

There was something like that back in the 70's - Senior Memeber Transition Program (SMTP). It didn't last too long, so I'm not 100% on the details, but it was basically like you describe. 18+ year old cadets could work on the next milestone after transitioning (ex. if you had your Earhart you could try for your Spaatz), and could participate in NCSA's (I think - as a 15 year old cadet at the time, I really didn't bother learning the details that well  ). I believe they wore Warrant Officer rank insignia (not the brass C/WO but bars and blocks), and generally participated as Senior Members. It wasn't popular, I can think of only one cadet who opted for it, and it went away after a couple of years.

[BillB]

It went away because is was voluntary. To many cadets wanted to keep their high cadet rank and status symbol. If it had been manditory to change to the transition program it would have been successful. It still allowed the SMTP (among other names for the program) people to progress in the cadet program (more than one milestone) while performing senior duties and training. It also recognized that 18+ members were adults and thus could have more activities available that are restricted to those below age 18. The grade insignia was the standard military warrent officer grade. A sivler bar with stripes running across (not lengthwise). Since USAF had dropped the warrent officer program the standard USAF warrent officer insignia was used.
This program is brought back would resolve many of the problems caused by or faced by the 18-21 year old member.

[Ned]

This program is brought back would resolve many of the problems caused by or faced by the 18-21 year old member.

1.  There are no problems faced by 18-21 year old cadets that such a program would "help."  IOW, it is a solution desperately seeking a problem.

2.  If the program has died for lack of participation at least twice before (counting both the "Advanced Cadet Transition" program (ACT) and the "Senior Transition Program" (STP) flavors), why do you think it would work this time?  Isn't one of the definitions of insanity "doing the same thing repeatedly but expecting different results."?

3.  Any program that seeks to forcibly deprive cadets of some or all of the benefits of our outstanding cadet program is by definition harmful to our program.  And that's a Bad Thing, is it not?

[Nathan]

Cutting off at 18 is a bad idea. The Spaatz can theoretically be earned in 4 years, but even so, most of the people I've seen rush through the program to try to reach the Spaatz in that amount of time miss out on quite a bit. When you go from being a C/SSgt during one encampment to being a C/2d Lt the next, you aren't likely to have much of an NCO encampment experience. It's just not a feasible option.