Why the age limit on NCC escorts?

[kd8gua]

For some time now I have been confused as to why NHQ has a minimum age limit of 25 for senior member escorts for Drill Team and Color Guard teams participating at the Wing, Region, or National level of the competition. My wing's Cadet Competition director is now just barely old enough to be an escort, and he's been running the program for a few years now. I'm trying to get involved in Cadet Programs, and it's very difficult to do activities to achieve a specialty track rating when I'm not old enough to do these things.

It seems highly unconventional that senior members under 25 aren't allowed to be escorts. If it has to do with driving a CAP vehicle, I've already got that license. If it has to do with some level of maturity, well, when my wing's Director of Cadet Programs is 23, and the Wing Cadet Competition Director is 25, I think maturity can and should be done on a case by case basis. I'm usually available to be present at most cadet activities, and my work schedule gives me free weekends. Last year, I worked staff at my wing's competition because I couldn't escort my team, whose two escorts (the Squadron CC and the Admin officer) had to beg and plead for time off work and juggle their busy weekend schedules to get a few hours off to escort the team because no other seniors were available.

Why does an age limit seem like an archaic and outdated idea?

[a2capt]

Because Cadets turn Senior Members have statistically had an incredibly hard time making the transition from Cadet to Senior member.

With a period of 4 years between them, it is hoped that by then, the realization that they are no longer a Cadet will have set in.

You may not have a problem, but I've seen it first hand quite a number of times in my short 9 years of CAP, and narrow focus of really only 1 group in CAWG, and heard about many more issues.

"We like Capt. XXXX because he lets us do things all the other Senior Members don't" .. Uhhh.. yeah.

Though, I can't find that in writing, only in 52-4 which deals specifically with NCC, though I have not read much in 52-4 in detail, if there is somewhere that says this regulation applies to all the feeder events, too.

[coudano]

It might have to do with insurance and supervising minors in a hotel or facility
or whatever

[a2capt]

I should clarify, "making the transition ... from a separation perspective".

[Eclipse]

Yes, it has everything to do with maturity level, and citing other questionable decisions (i.e. young wing staffers) does not change the equation.

There are always exceptions, but generally speaking people under 25 tend to have less life experience, less personal resources, and are more impulsive with less filter than "adults".

Being able to vote and drink doesn't automatically make you mature enough to do either, and it certainly isn't an indicator of the ability to supervise others who are even less equipped to make good choices.

Squawk away about life being unfair, yep, it is.  Just remember that everyone here over 25 was under 25 once and
knows exactly what you are thinking.  There's nothing new under the sun that one of us porch-yellers hasn't already done, faster and better, many times squeaking by alive by the skin of our teeth.

And while you're at it, get off my lawn!

[a2capt]

porch-yellers

LOL Thats a new one, to me.

[tsrup]

So if we are obviously less responsible than you old-uns, then why are we given the same grade and accountability that comes with it?
I suspect I will not get a "he's young, he doesn't know any better" if I make a decision that is a flagrant violation of regulation on any thing else.  I suspect it would be more along the lines of "he's a Captain, he should have known better" and appropriate disciplinary action to follow.

If you want to set a maturity measure, fine, make it a minimum required grade.

If your wing is allowing immature people to promote to that grade, than that is a separate issue.

And it has been my experience with some mud flinging that I have witnessed in another wing as of late, that immaturity is not limited to those under the age of 25.

[vento]

I also think it has (at least partially) to do with insurance/liability and/or maturity.
For example, in most states in the U.S., you can rent a car if you are over age 25. If you are under age 25, then you can only rent a car as an "underage".

[tsrup]

But I that doesn't prohibit me from driving a CAP vehicle on any mission or event where I am called to do so.  So apparently Im not that hard to insure.

[kd8gua]

Yes, it has everything to do with maturity level, and citing other questionable decisions (i.e. young wing staffers) does not change the equation.

There are always exceptions, but generally speaking people under 25 tend to have less life experience, less personal resources, and are more impulsive with less filter than "adults".

Being able to vote and drink doesn't automatically make you mature enough to do either, and it certainly isn't an indicator of the ability to supervise others who are even less equipped to make good choices.

Squawk away about life being unfair, yep, it is.  Just remember that everyone here over 25 was under 25 once and
knows exactly what you are thinking.  There's nothing new under the sun that one of us porch-yellers hasn't already done, faster and better, many times squeaking by alive by the skin of our teeth.

Questionable decisions? Hmm... the only questionable decision I could think of would be why my wing let the former DCP stay in as long as he did. He turned the wing's cadet program into a train wreck. He didn't listen to the suggestions of cadets or seniors involved with the cadet program. He had no interest in being the DCP; his sole interest was in ES, where he continues to hold a wing staff position. I cannot think of a single member of my wing who actually liked working under the previous DCP in any capacity. The new DCP is highly motivated and interested in the cadet program, and has already spearheaded many new ideas our wing is looking into. But I guess we were supposed to keep the other guy in there just because he was a Lt. Col and had more "life experience" and "maturity" as you call it.

"Less life experience, less personal resources, and are more impulsive with less filter than "adults"." Less life experience... What does that mean really? Are you saying someone who went to college/military/etc and is now working a full time job as well as volunteering with CAP? Been there done that... Next. Less personal resources. This is always a nice way of saying money. I work 40 hours a week make enough to get by and pay my bills. I also have money to throw at CAP to do various activities. Next. Impulsive with less filter than "adults." The USA states an adult is a person over the age of 18; 21 in regards to alcohol. What do you consider an "adult?" 30? 40? 50? Fortunately, my generation seems to be generally more impulsive with less of a filter. That's a good thing because that's how civilization evolves and creates new and better things. If people weren't impulsive or more carefully chose their words, we'd still think the earth was the center of the universe, or better yet, that it was flat!

People have to learn supervision and leadership somewhere. I didn't learn a lot of either when I was a cadet, and in my line of work, I don't have employees to supervise or lead, I'm just responsible for the lives of others who rely on my job. I guess I'm not old enough, even as a senior member, to learn how to lead. Who cares about SLS, TLC, or any of these courses... You're just wasting your time unless you're 25, because you apparently don't have the maturity to do various things until you're 25, and then you're magically mature enough to partake of all that CAP has to offer.

Better yet, I think the age limit should be removed, and the squadron commander have the authority to select escorts from applicants within the squadron. Because there is a very good chance that yes, there will be young, new seniors (especially those who just recently crossed from being cadets) who may not handle the task appropriately, but there are also many young seniors who either never were cadets or were cadets and then left with a large amount of time before coming back who can in fact handle the task. On the same token, just because a senior member is 25, 30, 60, etc. does not mean they are mature enough to handle a bunch of cadets for a competition. After all, sometimes there are senior members who just rather peruse online message boards to anonymously voice their opinion and boisterously explain in grave detail why their opinion is the correct one at all times... and then there are senior members who, regardless of age, really do have their heads on straight and can handle anything CAP throws at them. Maturity doesn't come with age, it comes with experiences and the company you keep. When I was around 10, the average age of my friends was well over 50; they enjoyed my knowledge about various topics, and I learned a lot from them as well. I wasn't out on the town TP'ing houses or egging cars. I had my head on straight before I even learned about CAP.

[Rotorhead]

So if we are obviously less responsible than you old-uns, then why are we given the same grade and accountability that comes with it?
I suspect I will not get a "he's young, he doesn't know any better" if I make a decision that is a flagrant violation of regulation on any thing else.  I suspect it would be more along the lines of "he's a Captain, he should have known better" and appropriate disciplinary action to follow.

If you want to set a maturity measure, fine, make it a minimum required grade.

If your wing is allowing immature people to promote to that grade, than that is a separate issue.

And it has been my experience with some mud flinging that I have witnessed in another wing as of late, that immaturity is not limited to those under the age of 25.

If there's away for you to come back and look at this post when you're 35, I recommend you do it. You'll get a good laugh.

[SKI304]

-Snip-

"Less life experience, less personal resources, and are more impulsive with less filter than "adults"." Less life experience... What does that mean really? Are you saying someone who went to college/military/etc and is now working a full time job as well as volunteering with CAP? Been there done that... Next. Less personal resources. This is always a nice way of saying money. I work 40 hours a week make enough to get by and pay my bills. I also have money to throw at CAP to do various activities. Next. Impulsive with less filter than "adults." The USA states an adult is a person over the age of 18; 21 in regards to alcohol. What do you consider an "adult?" 30? 40? 50? Fortunately, my generation seems to be generally more impulsive with less of a filter. That's a good thing because that's how civilization evolves and creates new and better things. If people weren't impulsive or more carefully chose their words, we'd still think the earth was the center of the universe, or better yet, that it was flat!

People have to learn supervision and leadership somewhere. I didn't learn a lot of either when I was a cadet, and in my line of work, I don't have employees to supervise or lead, I'm just responsible for the lives of others who rely on my job. I guess I'm not old enough, even as a senior member, to learn how to lead. Who cares about SLS, TLC, or any of these courses... You're just wasting your time unless you're 25, because you apparently don't have the maturity to do various things until you're 25, and then you're magically mature enough to partake of all that CAP has to offer.

Better yet, I think the age limit should be removed, and the squadron commander have the authority to select escorts from applicants within the squadron. Because there is a very good chance that yes, there will be young, new seniors (especially those who just recently crossed from being cadets) who may not handle the task appropriately, but there are also many young seniors who either never were cadets or were cadets and then left with a large amount of time before coming back who can in fact handle the task. On the same token, just because a senior member is 25, 30, 60, etc. does not mean they are mature enough to handle a bunch of cadets for a competition. After all, sometimes there are senior members who just rather peruse online message boards to anonymously voice their opinion and boisterously explain in grave detail why their opinion is the correct one at all times... and then there are senior members who, regardless of age, really do have their heads on straight and can handle anything CAP throws at them. Maturity doesn't come with age, it comes with experiences and the company you keep. When I was around 10, the average age of my friends was well over 50; they enjoyed my knowledge about various topics, and I learned a lot from them as well. I wasn't out on the town TP'ing houses or egging cars. I had my head on straight before I even learned about CAP.

There are only two activities in CAP that require the 25 age limit - NCC and IACE.  Considering that very few of the thousands of CP Seniors across the country participate in those activities, I'd say there are plenty of other opportunities for young seniors.  Encampment TAC Officer, Encampment Staff, NCSA Staff, running activities around the wing and squadron.  I know I never had a problem finding things to do to keep busy and work on my tech rating advancement.  The opportunities are there, and I know your Squadron Commander knows where they are.

If it is NCC you want to participate in there's plenty of ways to do that too besides being on staff.  Many times in the past I know they've waived the 25 years old rule at wing and region - so it's something you may want to ask about.  If that doesn't work, you can always help train your teams, be an extra driver to the competition, or just be there to support them. 

As to why that age limit exists in the first place, I've always assumed it was because those are the two activities that involve a senior taking a large group of cadets across the country or around the world.  What if the CAP vehicle breaks down or becomes unavailable?  That senior is going to have to rent a backup.  I know as a 26 year old senior who started escorting NCC teams at 25, I'm glad that age separation is there even though I thought it was unfair too at 23.  While I'm sure I possessed the knowledge and leadership skills to take a group of cadets across the country, the perception of me being a peer would have caused problems.  Having traveled across Europe with a group of friends when I studied abroad is a perfect case.  Teens and early twenty somethings can do some incredibly stupid things when left to their own devices.  Things that an older adult presence and oversight would mitigate.  A seven year separation to your average cadet coupled with status as a senior member leader helps solve that.  It's one of those necessary evils we have to take to avoid potential problems.

Give it a few years and I'm sure the problem will work itself out. 

[jeders]

Saying this as someone who is only 26, I agree 100% with the rule that no Seniors under 25 be escorts for NCC and IACE. Unlike most other CP activities, these escorts are going to be spending a lot of time with a small group of cadets with little other supervision. Like they say, "once bitten, twice shy."

[Stuff]

If there's away for you to come back and look at this post when you're 35, I recommend you do it. You'll get a good laugh.

It's funny, I've gone back and looked at old posts of mine on CS from just a few years ago, and I have to wonder who typed some of those things.

I'm trying to get involved in Cadet Programs, and it's very difficult to do activities to achieve a specialty track rating when I'm not old enough to do these things.

Remember, these are two National level activities that require you to be 25. There are innumerable Squadron, Group, Wing, and Region cadet activities that you can be a part of to learn and to use for rating advancement.

Because Cadets turn Senior Members have statistically had an incredibly hard time making the transition from Cadet to Senior member.

Which is why I won't let a Cadet-turned-Senior to be around cadets for 6-12 months. They need to learn what being a SM mean, as well as to separate themselves from Cadets. Unfortunately, some people well over 25 still have a predisposition to act like a teenager, but they are statistically fewer than those under 25.

[Eclipse]

Brad,

Assuming you are the exception that proves the rule, you are the exception.

All the posturing about college/military/job/"hard knocks" falls on the deaf ears of people who literally have shoes older than
you are and who have repeatedly had to clean up the messes of younger people who "knew better".
The  fact that you feel it is important to refer to a specific person in a negative light on a board where you are not anonymous is one of those "indicators" of the kind of "youthful enthusiasm" that gets people in trouble.

As to your wing's DCP, etc.  I would question how it is that in the entire wing, the most qualified person willing is only 23.
I would hazard a guess that there are others at least as qualified, if not moreso, who are older and more appropriate for the job(s).

Again, the fact that the former staffers may have been ineffective doesn't change the above.  Junior officers should not have wing-level
responsibilities, if for no other reason than it robs them of the local squadron experiences, and they find themselves with nowhere to
go when the wing job is over and 20 years of CAP ahead of them.

[Al Sayre]

 

Many rental car agencies won't rent to those under 25, so if your CAP van breaks down you'd be hosed.

Most people under 25 don't have a credit card with a big enough limit to pay for food, hotel rooms and van rental or repairs when the CAP van breaks down.

Most people under 25 can't afford to wait for reimbursement from Wing for the food, hotel rooms and van rental or repairs when the CAP van breaks down.

Many parents would be pretty uncomfortable sending their children halfway across the state or country with someone under 25 running the show.

[kd8gua]

I think I'll look into an age waiver for Wing level Competition this year, only because it is being held in our city, and so the chances of vehicle breakdowns/other huge expenses occurring are very slim. If it were to be in another portion of the state, I would reconsider of course and volunteer as staff once again. Heck, IACE didn't even cross my mind. I know my Squadron CC and a few other seniors are former IACE cadets, but we have a large number of Phase 1 and 2 cadets and few cadet officers so IACE didn't even cross my mind!

Eclipse - The new DCP is actually from my squadron, and is a friend of mine. A large group of us told him to be careful, because he is likely to burn himself out becoming Wing Staff so early on in his SM career. And frankly, in regards to "youthful enthusiasm," be glad you see it. Most people my age, or younger, consider me to act like a 70+ year old curmudgeon, and I will admit there are few things that do get me "worked up," if you will. This morning was one of those. And for my negative comments towards particular board members, I do apologize.

Al Sayre - Not so much even state laws, but even rental car companies as a general rule won't rent to under 25. I recall a trip I had to take to Baltimore, MD. From central Ohio, it's about a 7 hour drive. I was 20, and I went with a friend who was 21. We left at 4 AM. Got there around 11. Took care of the business I had came for, and then decided to stay in Baltimore for the evening and drive back the next day. Well... low and behold MD has a law that persons under 21 are not allowed to rent hotel rooms. My friend who was 21 did not have a credit card with him and did not have enough money in his bank account to pay for a room. So we were stuck in Baltimore with no place to stay. We decided to drive to Washington, DC to take a quick driving tour of the monuments. That backfired because of traffic, obviously. So, at now 6 PM we decide that since we have no place to stay, our best course of action is to just go home. And with that, we undertook the 7.5 hour drive from DC to Ohio. Remember, I was up at about 3 AM the morning before, and we did not get home until well after midnight. I learned quickly just how aggravating and, in my case, potentially dangerous, some laws can be. I could have easily fallen asleep at the wheel and crashed because the state won't allow me to get a motel room. I still can't believe I was able to drive for almost 24 hours.

[Spaceman3750]

If you were in DC why didnt you just get a room there or cross into Virginia? Or get a room on the way home?

[nesagsar]

Unfortunately there are plenty of young people who are ready and willing to do great things but get held back by rules meant for the masses. Been there, done that; not much you can do about it. This just makes me not want to get into the CP specialty until I am old enough to be allowed to do the job. Luckily I will be 23 when I join as a senior member so I wont have long to wait.

[Flying Pig]

^You dont want to be involved in CP because of a reg requiring you to be 25 to be an NCC escort?

[nesagsar]

I wont be taken seriously in that job until I am older anyway. I can start as PAO or ES and get good things done while I wait.