Cadet Firearm Training?

[QLintz]

I hope this goes in the right place.
In the Cadet Program is there firearm training?

[EMT-83]

Yes, but not all squadrons participate.

[cap235629]

NO.

However CAP Regulations do allow for cadet participation in OUTSIDE marksmanship programs.  It is not part of the CAP Cadet Program.

[Pylon]

NO.

However CAP Regulations do allow for cadet participation in OUTSIDE marksmanship programs.  It is not part of the CAP Cadet Program.

Actually, that's completely false.


CAPR 52-16, Section 1-4, Paragraph c(2) states, in part, "CAP cadets may participate in firearms training if the Wing Commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing."


I've seen squadrons in my wing take cadets to participate in marksmanship and firearms training including with handguns.  Some encampments also have some use of firearms/marksmanship training.

[nesagsar]

I shot expert with the M16a2 at my second encampment in 2003. It was held at an active Air Force base though, not everybody has that kind of resource available.

[cap235629]

NO.

However CAP Regulations do allow for cadet participation in OUTSIDE marksmanship programs.  It is not part of the CAP Cadet Program.

Actually, that's completely false.


CAPR 52-16, Section 1-4, Paragraph c(2) states, in part, "CAP cadets may participate in firearms training if the Wing Commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing."


I've seen squadrons in my wing take cadets to participate in marksmanship and firearms training including with handguns.  Some encampments also have some use of firearms/marksmanship training.

Note the emphasis. I am a firearms instructor who went through this procedure and I can assure you that any training must be conducted by an outside instructor. I am a member but when I am teaching I am teaching as a representative of the certifying agency.  CAP DOES NOT HAVE A MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM. There are many activities that involve marksmanship training, but they are not CAP sponsored, CAP personnel participate.

[Major Lord]

Great, now you guys have totally confused some cadet based on the nuances of regulations. Let me see if I can make it better without making it worse:

1) Regulations permit Cadets to receive firearms training as part of the cadet program.
2) CAP does not have its own training course-they rely on the agency conducting the training (NRA, Police , Military, etc) to provide the curricula.
3) The training course must be approved by the Wing and meet general approval categories ( Taking a course on the AK in Yemen for instance may not be acceptable)
4) Anyone can submit a training program for approval-just write an OPLAN for your Wing Commander.
5) Dual Chartering with a BSA Group is a good route to go-they have the facilities and the personnel, just no M-4's or other cool go-bang sticks!
6) Many CAP members hate firearms, and won't help you. Don't be surprised.

Good luck, and good shooting!

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

Also....

The current NRA program does not meet the guidelines for the wear of the now-defunct badge.

You will not earn your marksmanship badge, ribbon, cap device, plaque, or spare kidney at encampment.

[MICT1362]

I hope this goes in the right place.
In the Cadet Program is there firearm training?

Several of the members of my unit are NRA Instructors, and we as NRA Instructors conduct Firearms training at the Winter Encampment that our Wing holds.  If I can help you in any way in setting up a program for you locally, PM me.  We have been doing this for about 5 years and everything goes very well.  And, its a huge morale booster for basics at encampment.

>Clip
The current NRA program does not meet the guidelines for the wear of the now-defunct badge.
<Clip

Can you please PM me with a cite on this?  There are several NRA programs that can be used, and I would like to know which one doesn't qualify.

-Paramedic

[RiverAux]

6) Many CAP members hate firearms, and won't help you. Don't be surprised.

Never seen any evidence of that, but firearms ownership and approval does vary across the country.  I would expect CAP commanders to be very leery of getting cadets involved in firearms training since it isn't a standard part of our program and they'd probably have very unreasonable "liability" fears. 

[Eclipse]

Can you please PM me with a cite on this?  There are several NRA programs that can be used, and I would like to know which one doesn't qualify.

No need to keep it in secret - there a number of good NRA programs, and an NRA instructor (or military) would be required to run it, but the program that matched the criteria for wear of the NRA badge no longer exists, and CAP has not updated 39-1 or 39-3, so there is no authorization for uniform wear of anything the NRA is presenting today.

[MICT1362]

No need to keep it in secret - there a number of good NRA programs, and an NRA instructor (or military) would be required to run it, but the program that matched the criteria for wear of the NRA badge no longer exists, and CAP has not updated 39-1 or 39-3, so there is no authorization for uniform wear of anything the NRA is presenting today.

Disagree.

CAPR 52-16 1 October 2006
Pg. 7
Section 1-4
Subsection C2
"(2) Firearm Training. CAP cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see CAPR 900-3, Firearms: Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials. Training must be sponsored and supervised by one of the following:

     (a) Qualified military small arms range personnel.
     (b) Local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors.
     (c) Personnel of the National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association or Amateur Trap Shooting Association qualified as firearms instructors."

CAPM 39-1 23 March 2005
Pg. 108
Line Item Number 11

"Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge (Earned in accordance with NRA program.) (Cadets only)

Men: with the top edge centered on the left pocket flap of the service coat or shirt when worn as an outergarment. Women: in the same position as specialty insignia (above the ribbons and beneath the wings)."

NRA Program
Light Rifle Qualification Course
This link takes you to the Course Program and scoring.
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/qualbook.pdf#page=20

If you scroll to page 34 of the viewer (Pg 32 of the pamphlet) you will find the authorized medals for wear on the Dress uniform only.  (Pictures on the Left)  No patches are awarded for BDU wear.

There is a separate book that gives all the rules and specifics about the rifles, targets, and other things.  However the book cannot be viewed online, only purchased.

-Paramedic

[AirAux]

God, I love the smell of a hot debate in the morning..

[HGjunkie]

Too early for popcorn?

[Eclipse]

The program which qualified for the badge no longer exists, the existing program has a different name and is not
currently authorized for wear.

Pretty straightforward.

[MICT1362]

Please show me where it says that "Program X" is the approved program for CAP use.  Either in a CAP reference or NRA reference.

If you can show me that, then I would agree with you.  But I have yet to see that in my 4 years of working the program.

And if it is strictly a name change and the program is the same, then its a simple verbage problem.

-Paramedic

[Eclipse]

Quoth the KB:

Answer # 2122
"The NRA no longer offers the Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge described in CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual 23 Mar 2005.  At one time the National Rifle Association had a Junior NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program for young people, and CAP allowed cadets who earned the badge to wear it on the service uniform. The NRA program has since been changed. It has been incorporated with other awards that go from Pro-marksman through the nationally recognized Distinguished Expert.  Cadets who previously earned the badge under the old criteria may continue to wear it as long as they are cadets.

The national board/NEC would need to review the new NRA program and establish criteria before additional awards of the marksmanship badge. Whether future cadets will be allowed to earn and wear some type of marksmanship badge is an issue the national board will need to consider and decide."

[HGjunkie]

Is the KB a regulatory item now?

[Eclipse]

Is the KB a regulatory item now?

If you call NHQ you'll get the same answer, and there isn't anything in the regs which conflicts with the KB statements.

This idea that the KB isn't regulatory, a position I have made myself, only flies when there are clear regulatory conflicts,
or when one of their statements can be show to be simply incorrect (and in that case, if you tell them, they will fix it).

There is no conflict that one can present in this case.  Nothing quoted above supports the position without assumption.

[MIKE]

SMF needs youtube embed tags: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1W8onNIS5A

[MICT1362]

Is the KB a regulatory item now?

Thank You.

If you call NHQ you'll get the same answer, and there isn't anything in the regs which conflicts with the KB statements.

This idea that the KB isn't regulatory, a position I has made myself, only flies when there are clear regulatory conflicts,
or when one of their statements can be show to be simply incorrect (and in that case, if you tell them, they will fix it).

There is no conflict that one can present in this case.  Nothing quoted above supports the position without assumption.

The regulations as dated, directly contradict the KB.  When a newer version of the regs/manuals comes out and its taken out or changed, then that is something different.  If it hasn't been taken out, or there isn't a Policy Change Letter, then the Reg stands. Correct?

So semantics of a name change in the NRA program would be your entire basis for argument.  We change the name of programs and positions all the time in CAP!  And, it doesn't always get immediately updated in the regs.  It may take multiple years before it gets changed.

Oh, and if National is aware of the program that you are providing, and they haven't said anything, what does that say?  Because a Wing Commander has to approve the program, and they are the first line of enforcement of National policy at the Wing level.

-Paramedic

[LTC Don]

Is the KB a regulatory item now?

Thank You.

If you call NHQ you'll get the same answer, and there isn't anything in the regs which conflicts with the KB statements.

This idea that the KB isn't regulatory, a position I has made myself, only flies when there are clear regulatory conflicts,
or when one of their statements can be show to be simply incorrect (and in that case, if you tell them, they will fix it).

There is no conflict that one can present in this case.  Nothing quoted above supports the position without assumption.

The regulations as dated, directly contradict the KB.  When a newer version of the regs/manuals comes out and its taken out or changed, then that is something different.  If it hasn't been taken out, or there isn't a Policy Change Letter, then the Reg stands. Correct?

So semantics of a name change in the NRA program would be your entire basis for argument.  We change the name of programs and positions all the time in CAP!  And, it doesn't always get immediately updated in the regs.  It may take multiple years before it gets changed.

Oh, and if National is aware of the program that you are providing, and they haven't said anything, what does that say?  Because a Wing Commander has to approve the program, and they are the first line of enforcement of National policy at the Wing level.

-Paramedic

All the rhetoric aside, what this points out first and foremost, is a very badly worded regulation, that depended on a third party, and the assumption that the third party would never change anything on their side.  So CAP painted itself into a corner, and now has an issue that for some reason, hasn't been addressed.

An ICL needs to be issued, and the firearms program issue should have already been placed on a NB agenda.

CAP could quite easily form a generic program based on the older or current NRA program, and establish a badge for both seniors and cadets to participate in.  There are youth firearms competitions all over the country held by different organizations that would be great if CAP members could participate in.

That way, any of the accepted instruction systems (military, NRA, law enforcement) could teach it, not just the NRA.


Cheers,

[Eclipse]

Oh, and if National is aware of the program that you are providing, and they haven't said anything, what does that say?  Because a Wing Commander has to approve the program, and they are the first line of enforcement of National policy at the Wing level.

It says that in the grand scheme not many members do this and that it isn't on the priority list to be addressed.

Wing CC's approve the training activity, they have no authority over the badge.

[MICT1362]

That way, any of the accepted instruction systems (military, NRA, law enforcement) could teach it, not just the NRA.

You currently don't have to be NRA to teach.  Military and LEO are acceptable as well.

But I do agree that there is a lot of bad verbage on this subject.  I will get in contact with my Wing and Region Commander and see if we can bring some action on it.

-Paramedic

[Major Lord]

SMF needs youtube embed tags: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1W8onNIS5A

Ouch! I would not certify the training the Cadet seems to be involved with.....Where is his eye protection?  As far as Eclipses' view of the redesignated NRA medal being non-approved for wear, he may be technically right. Nonetheless, I see Cadets wearing various NRA bling on their uniforms in every Wing.

Major Lord

[QLintz]

Dang, I thought my question was pretty straight forward...
I hope you guys come to a conclusion, lol.

[Eclipse]

We did - yes you can participate in firearms training, though it is not provided by, nor a regular part of, the CAP Cadet program curriculum.
Whether you will have access to this depends solely on your Unit CC's initiative or the encampment you attend.

The badge issue has been contentious for a number of years, there will be no definitive answer generated here.

[DBlair]

As it was recently explained to me...

The NRA only changed the name of the badge slightly, dropping the 'youth' wording and adding the name of a sponsoring company, otherwise, it is the same exact badge/program.

Thus, the exact wording in the CAP publications does not match the current badge/program, only because it needs to be updated in line with current NRA nomenclature. It all comes down to if members are stuck on the exact wording vs the actual program.

From what I've heard, a wide variety of Wing Commanders have no issue with it currently being earned and worn, as it is actually the same program it always was.



To put this in CAP terms... (An Example) The current CAPF2A still refers to the "Community Service Ribbon" as the old "Cadet Community Service Ribbon" and so with the mindset of exact wording, SMs can't currently earn this ribbon, even though it is the same award- now with a slightly different name. It is the same as with the NRA badge... same program/award, slightly different name.

[Eclipse]

Which is great, except that isn't what CAP is saying publicly when you ask them directly or search the KB.

It is also not the same program if you look at what is included.  Similar, yes, worthwhile, probably, but not the same.
Wing CC's are perfectly in their rights to "have no issues", as long as they don't approve the wear of the old badge, since NHQ has made it clear that new awards are not authorized.

To put this in CAP terms... (An Example) The current CAPF2A still refers to the "Community Service Ribbon" as the old "Cadet Community Service Ribbon" and so with the mindset of exact wording, SMs can't currently earn this ribbon, even though it is the same award- now with a slightly different name. It is the same as with the NRA badge... same program/award, slightly different name.

This isn't remotely the same thing as:

The CSR is an internal ribbon awarded to members based on subjective approval of a commander.

The regulation was actually updated to accommodate seniors wearing it.

There are any number of decorations not included on the 2a, which is why you have the "Other" line.

Since they are both obsolete, you can't award a C/CSR any more than you can award the NRA Junior Award. The key word is obsolete.

Why does this always have to be ice-skating uphill?  Until it is re-addressed it is not authorized for new cadets.
The program changed, the text doesn't match, the pins are different, and the KB says "no", yet people are going to go through mental gymnastics to say it is "just verbiage".

[a2capt]

Why does this always have to be ice-skating uphill?

Because without it, you'd have a hard time breaking 10K. Be grateful

[QLintz]

We did - yes you can participate in firearms training, though it is not provided by, nor a regular part of, the CAP Cadet program curriculum.
Whether you will have access to this depends solely on your Unit CC's initiative or the encampment you attend.

The badge issue has been contentious for a number of years, there will be no definitive answer generated here.

Thanks, and also to every one of you who posted.

-QLintz

[DakRadz]

As it was recently explained to me...

The NRA only changed the name of the badge slightly, dropping the 'youth' wording and adding the name of a sponsoring company, otherwise, it is the same exact badge/program.

Thus, the exact wording in the CAP publications does not match the current badge/program, only because it needs to be updated in line with current NRA nomenclature. It all comes down to if members are stuck on the exact wording vs the actual program.

From what I've heard, a wide variety of Wing Commanders have no issue with it currently being earned and worn, as it is actually the same program it always was.

But as a cadet officer, I cannot in conscience wear the badge when it is not officially authorized in proper terminology. So what do I do? It does need to be fixed, and I won't knowingly and blatantly ignore the regs nor allow my cadets to do so until such a time as NHQ fixes the issue.
For me it's an integrity issue- it's not technically authorized, but I could convince my superiors to allow it... But I don't like that sort of thing. I hate seeing that- already seen a beret issue similar to this (NOT Blue Beret, leave that alone)...

[Ned]

But as a cadet officer, I cannot in conscience wear the badge when it is not officially authorized in proper terminology. So what do I do?

One possiblity is that you could explore the current NRA marksmanship training programs and draft a fix that would update the regulations, and forward it through channels.  Kind of a "members helping members" kind of thing.

Alternatively, you could work through your CAC to accomplish the task.

Just try to make sure that the draft language is complete and correct.  It sounds like it should also be flexible enough to allow for future changes by the NRA.

Think how cool it would be to have language you wrote put into an actual regulation!

Ned Lee

[DakRadz]

But as a cadet officer, I cannot in conscience wear the badge when it is not officially authorized in proper terminology. So what do I do?

One possiblity is that you could explore the current NRA marksmanship training programs and draft a fix that would update the regulations, and forward it through channels.  Kind of a "members helping members" kind of thing.

Alternatively, you could work through your CAC to accomplish the task.

Just try to make sure that the draft language is complete and correct.  It sounds like it should also be flexible enough to allow for future changes by the NRA.

Think how cool it would be to have language you wrote put into an actual regulation!

Ned Lee

You dirty... Great. Now I've just been motivated and prodded into something awesome... As if I didn't have enough on my plate.

Being a CAC representative, I'd say I have a slight in.

[Eclipse]

Or you could just participate in the training, despite the fact that there isn't a badge.

[DakRadz]

Or you could just participate in the training, despite the fact that there isn't a badge.

Done. Basic Practical course completed (which is an optional but highly valuable safety orientation) and Pro-Marksman rank in Position Air Rifle. If I had the time and the money for targets, I'd get at least my Marksman 1st Class.

That's the only reason I'm concerned about the effects of wearing the badge just because "I heard from someone" and "I could get it approved by the Sqd/CC."

[cap235629]

That way, any of the accepted instruction systems (military, NRA, law enforcement) could teach it, not just the NRA.

You currently don't have to be NRA to teach.  Military and LEO are acceptable as well.

But I do agree that there is a lot of bad verbage on this subject.  I will get in contact with my Wing and Region Commander and see if we can bring some action on it.

-Paramedic

I am a 4H shooting sports instructor and got approval through the wing and National.  The Cadet Program staff at national are looking at the reg and making recomendations

[cap235629]

The Civilian Marksmanship Program has similar qualification courses, check them out here

[LTC Don]

The Civilian Marksmanship Program has similar qualification courses, check them out here

Wow.  I'd never heard of this organization before.  Very interesting, especially since they already have an active JROTC competition program.  Would be great for CAP to get involved with this since CMP is codified in Public Law and not likely to produce the problems experienced with the regs and NRA.


Cheers,