Cadet Firearm Training?

[QLintz]

I hope this goes in the right place.
In the Cadet Program is there firearm training?

[EMT-83]

Yes, but not all squadrons participate.

[cap235629]

NO.

However CAP Regulations do allow for cadet participation in OUTSIDE marksmanship programs.  It is not part of the CAP Cadet Program.

[Pylon]

NO.

However CAP Regulations do allow for cadet participation in OUTSIDE marksmanship programs.  It is not part of the CAP Cadet Program.

Actually, that's completely false.


CAPR 52-16, Section 1-4, Paragraph c(2) states, in part, "CAP cadets may participate in firearms training if the Wing Commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing."


I've seen squadrons in my wing take cadets to participate in marksmanship and firearms training including with handguns.  Some encampments also have some use of firearms/marksmanship training.

[nesagsar]

I shot expert with the M16a2 at my second encampment in 2003. It was held at an active Air Force base though, not everybody has that kind of resource available.

[cap235629]

NO.

However CAP Regulations do allow for cadet participation in OUTSIDE marksmanship programs.  It is not part of the CAP Cadet Program.

Actually, that's completely false.


CAPR 52-16, Section 1-4, Paragraph c(2) states, in part, "CAP cadets may participate in firearms training if the Wing Commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing."


I've seen squadrons in my wing take cadets to participate in marksmanship and firearms training including with handguns.  Some encampments also have some use of firearms/marksmanship training.

Note the emphasis. I am a firearms instructor who went through this procedure and I can assure you that any training must be conducted by an outside instructor. I am a member but when I am teaching I am teaching as a representative of the certifying agency.  CAP DOES NOT HAVE A MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM. There are many activities that involve marksmanship training, but they are not CAP sponsored, CAP personnel participate.

[Major Lord]

Great, now you guys have totally confused some cadet based on the nuances of regulations. Let me see if I can make it better without making it worse:

1) Regulations permit Cadets to receive firearms training as part of the cadet program.
2) CAP does not have its own training course-they rely on the agency conducting the training (NRA, Police , Military, etc) to provide the curricula.
3) The training course must be approved by the Wing and meet general approval categories ( Taking a course on the AK in Yemen for instance may not be acceptable)
4) Anyone can submit a training program for approval-just write an OPLAN for your Wing Commander.
5) Dual Chartering with a BSA Group is a good route to go-they have the facilities and the personnel, just no M-4's or other cool go-bang sticks!
6) Many CAP members hate firearms, and won't help you. Don't be surprised.

Good luck, and good shooting!

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

Also....

The current NRA program does not meet the guidelines for the wear of the now-defunct badge.

You will not earn your marksmanship badge, ribbon, cap device, plaque, or spare kidney at encampment.

[MICT1362]

I hope this goes in the right place.
In the Cadet Program is there firearm training?

Several of the members of my unit are NRA Instructors, and we as NRA Instructors conduct Firearms training at the Winter Encampment that our Wing holds.  If I can help you in any way in setting up a program for you locally, PM me.  We have been doing this for about 5 years and everything goes very well.  And, its a huge morale booster for basics at encampment.

>Clip
The current NRA program does not meet the guidelines for the wear of the now-defunct badge.
<Clip

Can you please PM me with a cite on this?  There are several NRA programs that can be used, and I would like to know which one doesn't qualify.

-Paramedic

[RiverAux]

6) Many CAP members hate firearms, and won't help you. Don't be surprised.

Never seen any evidence of that, but firearms ownership and approval does vary across the country.  I would expect CAP commanders to be very leery of getting cadets involved in firearms training since it isn't a standard part of our program and they'd probably have very unreasonable "liability" fears. 

[Eclipse]

Can you please PM me with a cite on this?  There are several NRA programs that can be used, and I would like to know which one doesn't qualify.

No need to keep it in secret - there a number of good NRA programs, and an NRA instructor (or military) would be required to run it, but the program that matched the criteria for wear of the NRA badge no longer exists, and CAP has not updated 39-1 or 39-3, so there is no authorization for uniform wear of anything the NRA is presenting today.

[MICT1362]

No need to keep it in secret - there a number of good NRA programs, and an NRA instructor (or military) would be required to run it, but the program that matched the criteria for wear of the NRA badge no longer exists, and CAP has not updated 39-1 or 39-3, so there is no authorization for uniform wear of anything the NRA is presenting today.

Disagree.

CAPR 52-16 1 October 2006
Pg. 7
Section 1-4
Subsection C2
"(2) Firearm Training. CAP cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see CAPR 900-3, Firearms: Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials. Training must be sponsored and supervised by one of the following:

     (a) Qualified military small arms range personnel.
     (b) Local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors.
     (c) Personnel of the National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association or Amateur Trap Shooting Association qualified as firearms instructors."

CAPM 39-1 23 March 2005
Pg. 108
Line Item Number 11

"Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge (Earned in accordance with NRA program.) (Cadets only)

Men: with the top edge centered on the left pocket flap of the service coat or shirt when worn as an outergarment. Women: in the same position as specialty insignia (above the ribbons and beneath the wings)."

NRA Program
Light Rifle Qualification Course
This link takes you to the Course Program and scoring.
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/qualbook.pdf#page=20

If you scroll to page 34 of the viewer (Pg 32 of the pamphlet) you will find the authorized medals for wear on the Dress uniform only.  (Pictures on the Left)  No patches are awarded for BDU wear.

There is a separate book that gives all the rules and specifics about the rifles, targets, and other things.  However the book cannot be viewed online, only purchased.

-Paramedic

[AirAux]

God, I love the smell of a hot debate in the morning..

[HGjunkie]

Too early for popcorn?

[Eclipse]

The program which qualified for the badge no longer exists, the existing program has a different name and is not
currently authorized for wear.

Pretty straightforward.

[MICT1362]

Please show me where it says that "Program X" is the approved program for CAP use.  Either in a CAP reference or NRA reference.

If you can show me that, then I would agree with you.  But I have yet to see that in my 4 years of working the program.

And if it is strictly a name change and the program is the same, then its a simple verbage problem.

-Paramedic

[Eclipse]

Quoth the KB:

Answer # 2122
"The NRA no longer offers the Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge described in CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual 23 Mar 2005.  At one time the National Rifle Association had a Junior NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program for young people, and CAP allowed cadets who earned the badge to wear it on the service uniform. The NRA program has since been changed. It has been incorporated with other awards that go from Pro-marksman through the nationally recognized Distinguished Expert.  Cadets who previously earned the badge under the old criteria may continue to wear it as long as they are cadets.

The national board/NEC would need to review the new NRA program and establish criteria before additional awards of the marksmanship badge. Whether future cadets will be allowed to earn and wear some type of marksmanship badge is an issue the national board will need to consider and decide."

[HGjunkie]

Is the KB a regulatory item now?

[Eclipse]

Is the KB a regulatory item now?

If you call NHQ you'll get the same answer, and there isn't anything in the regs which conflicts with the KB statements.

This idea that the KB isn't regulatory, a position I have made myself, only flies when there are clear regulatory conflicts,
or when one of their statements can be show to be simply incorrect (and in that case, if you tell them, they will fix it).

There is no conflict that one can present in this case.  Nothing quoted above supports the position without assumption.

[MIKE]

SMF needs youtube embed tags: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1W8onNIS5A