Cadets struggling with CPFT

[AirAux]

I think some may have missed my drift.  I do everything I can to keep cadets motivated and on the program.  That being said, I am not going to take a 12 year old and work with him a year to get him in shape before I promote him IF he is motivated and doing everything else right.  I want to see him/her get the Curry and get to the first summer encampment they can.  This alone will help to motivate a cadet to try harder and work hard to get into shape and succeed.  Some cadets are in perfect shape when they come and some can't run a mile or do push-ups, but in  a year we will have them at their PT level and they will be progressing in the program.  I am not going to delay a cadet's promotion to Curry IF PT is the only obstacle and they are trying..  This is getting close to discrimination against fatties and/or couch potatoes and that is not the gist of our program.  If a fat kid comes out and tries, he deserves kudos for the guts to even do that.  He should not be made to feel like a failure because he is below our standards when he joins.  We don't have required standards nor weight standards for our youth.  Some of the the little lard balls have become some macho marines 6 years down the road..  Might not have happened without our reassurances and help..

[Eclipse]

I am not going to delay a cadet's promotion to Curry IF PT is the only obstacle and they are trying..  This is getting close to discrimination against fatties and/or couch potatoes and that is not the gist of our program.  If a fat kid comes out and tries, he deserves kudos for the guts to even do that.  He should not be made to feel like a failure because he is below our standards when he joins.  We don't have required standards nor weight standards for our youth.

Big time no-no, and one of the reasons we have cadets who show up ill prepared for encampments.

Air, I'm sure you are well-intentioned on this, but that's not how it works and you know it.

This had nothing to do whatsoever about discrimination, and waving that flag is not going to help your argument.

[AirAux]

Okay, I guess you guys are right, I will just tell them that they aren't good enough for us and to join the Boy Scouts..  The ones that have slipped through, I will tighten the requirements to match the Reg's and join the rest of you on retention rates.. And here I though I was doing something good for somebody.. Oh well, There's not a program out there that can't be driven into the ground by micromanagement..   

[Майор Хаткевич]

I am not going to delay a cadet's promotion to Curry IF PT is the only obstacle and they are trying..  This is getting close to discrimination against fatties and/or couch potatoes and that is not the gist of our program.  If a fat kid comes out and tries, he deserves kudos for the guts to even do that.  He should not be made to feel like a failure because he is below our standards when he joins.  We don't have required standards nor weight standards for our youth.

Big time no-no, and one of the reasons we have cadets who show up ill prepared for encampments.

Air, I'm sure you are well-intentioned on this, but that's not how it works and you know it.

This had nothing to do whatsoever about discrimination, and waving that flag is not going to help your argument.

Sir, I've seen many cadets who went to Encampment, and were not only overweight, but borderline obese. I don't doubt that some of those (most?) didn't pass their Curry PT, I know and have seen, and have had cadets tell me that they were pencil whipped on their first PT in something. A few years later, quite a number of them went on to become good C/Officers and motivated other cadets to become future leaders as well.

It's not right, and it doesn't follow the regs, but it's part necessary evil, part more to the spirit of CAP than having a cadet at C/AB for a year until they drop off the list.

[Eclipse]

Okay, I guess you guys are right, I will just tell them that they aren't good enough for us and to join the Boy Scouts..  The ones that have slipped through, I will tighten the requirements to match the Reg's and join the rest of you on retention rates.. And here I though I was doing something good for somebody.. Oh well, There's not a program out there that can't be driven into the ground by micromanagement..

Retention of cadets who cannot meet the minimums doesn't do anyone any good, including the cadets.
The numbers are objective specifically to avoid conversations like these.

[jeders]

Okay, I guess you guys are right, I will just tell them that they aren't good enough for us and to join the Boy Scouts..  The ones that have slipped through, I will tighten the requirements to match the Reg's and join the rest of you on retention rates.. And here I though I was doing something good for somebody.. Oh well, There's not a program out there that can't be driven into the ground by micromanagement..

Retention of cadets who cannot meet the minimums doesn't do anyone any good, including the cadets.
The numbers are objective specifically to avoid conversations like these.

Not to mention, that if you have cadets who can't pass the Curry PT, especially after any extended period of time, your cadets probably have larger motivational problems. I know the standards and practices have changed since I joined, but I could barely jog and was able to blow away the Curry PT requirements.

If a cadet has problems with passing the PT, then either work with them or have someone else work for them for a month and there should be no issues.

[flydoggy]

In our Sq. the cadets who can not run the mile are allowed to do a shuttle run. Doing the shuttle run has allowed many cadets to promote.

[davidsinn]

In our Sq. the cadets who can not run the mile are allowed to do a shuttle run. Doing the shuttle run has allowed many cadets to promote.

And that's exactly how you're supposed to do it. I'm fat and older than the cadets and I could probably knock out the shuttle run. I know I wouldn't get a mile under time

[Майор Хаткевич]

In our Sq. the cadets who can not run the mile are allowed to do a shuttle run. Doing the shuttle run has allowed many cadets to promote.

Some can't pass both. Shuttle isn't the same as the mile anyway, and it has tough goals as well.

[Pylon]

AirAux, that's pretty much admitting serious compromise of the regulations and the integrity of cadet promotions.   You can give a cadet motivation, encouragement, guidance and support to reach their goals.  But if you give them the promotions anyways, and let them go to encampment and whatever anyways, not only are you now running your own (illegal) version of the cadet program, what incentive do the cadets have to work their hardest, if they know you'll pin them at some point anyways.  What's next?  Letting a few extra wrong questions slide on the written tests because the cadet has taken it 3 or 4 times and hasn't passed?  Frankly your actions devalue the hard work all of my cadets (and the cadets in the dozens of other units) who struggle and work hard to meet the standard, as written, accurately measured, and are held to that.

I can't agree with you or your position in the least bit and I find no room for compromise here.

The Curry standards are based on data from the Presidential physical fitness challenge, and is designed for the 25% percentile. In other words, 75% of the American public should be able to walk off the streets and immediately meet the Curry CPFT standards.

If you're taking in cadets that have that much trouble passing the Curry that after months on end, they need you to overlook the rules and give them a free pass, then you've failed to appropriately communicate the expectations to these cadets before they joined.  Be honest, you should be able to tell if a kid is so out of shape that within 6 to 12 months he still wouldn't be able to run a 10 minute mile or crank out a dozen pushups.  You can (and should) communicate these standards to potential recruits before they join and you wouldn't be in that position to begin with.

Again, I'm not saying PT is easy for many cadets.  I think for many it's a great deal of work.  But it's our job to implement the program as is, and encourage the cadets within the structure of the regulations.  It works amazingly well when you do it right.

[Al Sayre]

On other thing that should be mentioned is that if the Cadet(s) are seriously obese or having that much trouble, they should probably get a check up by their physician.  I have recommended that to several over the years, and sent along a copy of the PT standards.  In two cases, the cadets came back with a letter from their doctor stating that they should not do certain activities for various reasons, one was diagnosed with asthma at age 15.  He had never noticed it or mentioned it to his Dr. until he had to run the mile and almost passed out...

[Майор Хаткевич]

I've called the PPFC people, and the tests were done in the 80s, and then again in the 90s. Some of the things weren't re-done in the 90s, and the samples weren't quite big enough to make it a true comparison. Also don't forget that obesity is on the rise, which would skew the results from even a decade ago to now.

[Майор Хаткевич]

On other thing that should be mentioned is that if the Cadet(s) are seriously obese or having that much trouble, they should probably get a check up by their physician.  I have recommended that to several over the years, and sent along a copy of the PT standards.  In two cases, the cadets came back with a letter from their doctor stating that they should not do certain activities for various reasons, one was diagnosed with asthma at age 15.  He had never noticed it or mentioned it to his Dr. until he had to run the mile and almost passed out...

Me thinks we need to have physicals done for all cadets anyway.

[Flying Pig]

They are struggling to pass the CPFT and earn their curry achievement.

Confiscate their X-box...

I have compassion for cadets who have poor life habits...to a point.  However, short of a disability or an injury, I have found this is almost always the case.  If you cant run a mile as a cadet, you have some issues.  If you cant run a mile and you have been a cadet for a while....you have issues.  Join the track team, join the swim team.  Join Jenny Craig.
When you separate the emotion of "but he/she tries" out of it, they usually aren't trying hard enough.  Plain and simple.  I would bet your cadets arent doing much the other 29 days per month.  Showing up and barfing once per month isn't trying.  Its denial.

[tsrup]

Anyone who thinks that breaking testing regulations is a necessary evil needs to be fired from being a Testing Officer.  Plain and simple.  There is no middle ground.  It is this idea of pencil whipped promotions that take whatever meaning a cadet rank has and trashes it.  By helping one cadet remain motivated you are destroying the motivation of the others. 

There is also the operational factor, if a cadet is a curry, and they cant pass a curry CPFT, are they going to be suited for a GT mission?  Or will they become a liability?   

[Майор Хаткевич]

Anyone who thinks that breaking testing regulations is a necessary evil needs to be fired from being a Testing Officer.  Plain and simple.  There is no middle ground.  It is this idea of pencil whipped promotions that take whatever meaning a cadet rank has and trashes it.  By helping one cadet remain motivated you are destroying the motivation of the others. 

There is also the operational factor, if a cadet is a curry, and they cant pass a curry CPFT, are they going to be suited for a GT mission?  Or will they become a liability?   

The few cases I know of and mentioned, it was down to the wire in seconds/number of sit-ups, CM or two, etc.

I was talking about a few cases where the cadet probably doesn't even know it happened.

[tsrup]

Anyone who thinks that breaking testing regulations is a necessary evil needs to be fired from being a Testing Officer.  Plain and simple.  There is no middle ground.  It is this idea of pencil whipped promotions that take whatever meaning a cadet rank has and trashes it.  By helping one cadet remain motivated you are destroying the motivation of the others. 

There is also the operational factor, if a cadet is a curry, and they cant pass a curry CPFT, are they going to be suited for a GT mission?  Or will they become a liability?   

The few cases I know of and mentioned, it was down to the wire in seconds/number of sit-ups, CM or two, etc.

I was talking about a few cases where the cadet probably doesn't even know it happened.

So how many seconds is it acceptable to apply the fudge factor, how many sit-ups, how many pushups?

I'll tell you, and it's actually really easy.  ZERO.  If I caught wind of one of my cadets adjusting their numbers it would be a while before they promoted again and not without a series of CAPF 50's.     

[Майор Хаткевич]

The cadets weren't "fudging" their own records. It was done by SMs.

I'm sorry you view it this way, but as someone who has struggled with weight, I understand some of what must have been in the SMs minds. Typically, I just ran with the cadet and "sacrificed" my own PT to help them pass. But that's just me, and that's how a certain C/Capt helped me pass my first PT when I just joined as well.

But while we're on it sir, Please do let me know how you'd tell an obese prospect that he might as well take a hike since he won't pass a PT, probably for a while. Also tell me how you would keep the lawyers at bay. Sure some can get medical waivers, but not everyone can get one, and some medical conditions won't cause a necessary limitation on physical activity while adding on pounds.

[jimmydeanno]

Sometimes, all it takes is just talking to the cadets that are having the issues.

Just like the boomer generation, winning is a very big deal to the cadets that are coming up now.  They're raised to be over-achievers, compete for slots in everything, etc.  Giving them some perspective that they're doing a great job and that everyone has something that is their challenge in life can go a long way.

I had a cadet that took a year to shave 9 minutes off their mile run time until they got promoted.  We talked quite a bit about diet, working out routines and facing challenges head on.  It took a year, but he finally made it.  Put some (good) pressure on them to succeed, talk about some of the carrots in front of them.  Keep reminding them of how well they're doing in the rest of the program, etc.

Just be supportive and offer to help them in any way you can.  The cadet program needs good mentors and leaders for just these situations. 

Thanks for supporting them!

[tsrup]

The cadets weren't "fudging" their own records. It was done by SMs.

I'm sorry you view it this way, but as someone who has struggled with weight, I understand some of what must have been in the SMs minds. Typically, I just ran with the cadet and "sacrificed" my own PT to help them pass. But that's just me, and that's how a certain C/Capt helped me pass my first PT when I just joined as well.

But while we're on it sir, Please do let me know how you'd tell an obese prospect that he might as well take a hike since he won't pass a PT, probably for a while. Also tell me how you would keep the lawyers at bay. Sure some can get medical waivers, but not everyone can get one, and some medical conditions won't cause a necessary limitation on physical activity while adding on pounds.

There will be no legal ramifications towards myself and my squadron if I apply the regulation as it is stated equally among cadets.  Discrimination could be called into play if I were to fudge the numbers on some, and not others. 

If you want to look at it from a CYOA approach, all of those using threats of discrimination as their guise for their dismissal of the regulation are only opening themselves toward lawsuit, not the other way around.

If the regulations are discriminatory, that is for the lawyers and national to figure out.  Until then I will apply the regulation as is to all of my cadets without exception. 

I'm sorry you have had experience with SMs who lacked the integrity to do their duties as testing officers.  This is not the kind of role models we need to have in CP.