Cadets struggling with CPFT

[Cleaver]

I'm sure this has been asked before but reading a few pages back I didn't see anything.  I'm sure some our seasoned and saltier members will complain for me asking again but I really need to find a solution before a few cadets quit in frustration.   What can I do to help a few newer cadets pass the CPFT.  They are struggling to pass the CPFT and earn their curry achievement.  I have three of them who are fantastic cadets in all areas they are just having an awful time trying to pass the CPFT.  I know they are working on their physical fitness because they have improved tremendously on the sit ups, push ups and sit and reach and pass those now but the mile and the shuttle run are ruining them.  None of them have medical issues.

[Flying Pig]

If they have no medical issues and have been improving in the other areas, I would suggest someone teaching them how to run and how to cut time off of their runs.  Most cadets I see go out and pound their feet into the ground in their Vans tennies thinking it will take time off of their run.  Possibly talk to a local gym or trainer who might be willing to come and talk to the cadets.  Or perhaps a High School X-Country Coach, etc.  Really dropping time is an art.  I have found most cadets who are newer, 12-14 ish, dont have the knowledge to self train themselves.

[Eclipse]

They are struggling to pass the CPFT and earn their curry achievement.

Confiscate their X-box...

[Pylon]

Counseling.

I used a standard form at the squadron (attached) -- the Individual Physical Fitness Progression Plan.

Take a cadet who is struggling with PT (not passing, getting margial passes, etc.), plug in their target scores, and what they're getting now. 

Then sit down with the cadet to talk about what they're doing.  Any cadet-aged person who is regularly exercising and eating the right way (barring medical issues) should have no problems improving their PT scores.  Cadets (again, barring medical issues) who do not improve their PT are not improving for a lack of trying, motivation, or education.  We can fix the education part of it through counselling.  Help them understand what exercises and PT can be done in their off-time to improve their physical fitness and CPFT scores.  Help them understand what foods are healthy and what are not.  While cadets may not be able to tell mom and dad how to change the dinner menu, they do have opportunities to make choices all the time (drink water instead of soda, get a juice or water instead of a energy drink, get the apple slices instead of the bag of chips while out, etc.). 

One of the ways we help all of our cadets get better at this is a monthly session called "PT Facts".  On a rotating basis, cadets are assigned to research a topic related to health and wellness and make a 15 minute presentation at our monthly PT meeting.  This not only educates the whole squadron a little bit, but forces the researching cadet to delve into the subject matter and also hone their public speaking skills.  Great for new airmen.

On an aside, the really nice thing about SIMS is the historical data and the power of that.  By pulling up a cadet's "master record" in SIMS, and clicking the "testing history" tab, I can immediately see a list of all of their past CPFTs chronologically.  I can scan down the columns and see if, over time, a cadets mile time has gotten better, stagnated, or gotten worse.  I can see if their push-ups are increasing, stagnating, or actually decreasing.  The CPFT alone isn't any sort of physical fitness program -- it's simply an evaluative tool to determine if the cadet is doing the right things outside of CAP. 

If a cadet is failing to improve their PT scores after education and counseling, and they and the parents confirm there is no medical issue, it's likely time to begin applying corrective action because the cadet is clearly not holding up their end of the bargain.  Ultimately, if they want to stay in the program they commit to upholding certain certain and progressing regularly through the ranks.  If they don't want to keep up, CAP isn't for them.  We're not a save the whale sort of program.

[Spike]

Isn't attempting to pass enough to say the Cadet is "trying to progress to the best of his or her ability"? 

Since CAP does not have a real Physical Fitness Program (only a gauging test) we shouldn't expect Cadets to do anymore than show up for the test.

So a Kid is FAT, and attempts the PT test every month, only improves a little.  Do you want to kick him out.  I think that Cadet is showing a great deal of courage and mental fortitude in showing up to begin with.  The "skinny stick kids" that can run a mile in 5:00 from day one, are sure lucky they have a fast metabolism.  Must be great not to have ever been the "fat Kid"

[Eclipse]

What's your point?

Allow him to stay a slick sleeve until he's 21?

He can't do anything in CAP without Curry, certainly none of the sizzle we sell.

A cadet without legitimate medical issues who can't get to a Curry-level of fitness in 4-6 months is not making the
effort needed and should move on.   The mile run for a 12 year old is 10:22, 13 year old 9:23 - that's not much more than a brisk walk.

CAP is about meeting objective standards not everyone can get to - that's the point, and what makes the more advanced grades,  especially, have their real meaning.

Not everyone wins in the CP, and that might be the best lesson we can teach.

[Pylon]

Isn't attempting to pass enough to say the Cadet is "trying to progress to the best of his or her ability"? 

Since CAP does not have a real Physical Fitness Program (only a gauging test) we shouldn't expect Cadets to do anymore than show up for the test.

So a Kid is FAT, and attempts the PT test every month, only improves a little.  Do you want to kick him out.  I think that Cadet is showing a great deal of courage and mental fortitude in showing up to begin with.  The "skinny stick kids" that can run a mile in 5:00 from day one, are sure lucky they have a fast metabolism.  Must be great not to have ever been the "fat Kid"

Doing PT once a month for 30 or 60 minutes at a CAP meeting will produce 0 results, and actually puts the cadet at risk for injury. 

When cadets enter the program, they agree to abide by the regulations.  The regulations (52-16) and part of the cadet oath both insist cadets progress through the achievements regularly.  "Trying to progress" isn't sufficient.  To progress through the program, the CPFT standards will get harder as both the cadet gets older, and as they move up through the achievements.  It's gradually increased from a very lenient standard, but cadets must continually improve themselves to keep moving through the program.  That's just a fact of our program is structured.


Also, saying CAP doesn't have a real physical fitness program only highlights that CAP in the unit's your familiar with aren't implementing the program properly.  Holding a CPFT program once a month is not what CAP has in mind.  There is a whole portion of the physical fitness pamphlet about everything from group exercises and stretching, to PT education.  There's no mandatory minimum to the Aerospace Education CP program component, yet units usually manage to mention to involve AE more than 30 minutes a month in their schedules.  Doing any less for physical fitness -- a fully equal element of the cadet program to leadership, AE, character development, and activities -- is a disservice to the cadets.   Units ideally would be conducting both group exercise activities (working in new stretches and calisthenics so cadets can learn from them) as well as educational activities.   Again, doing just the CPFT once a month is, in my opinion, a disservice and a failure to the cadets.

In addition, even if you're claiming the CPFT (an evaluative test) is the only thing done for PT in your area, how is the CPFT different from the other evaluative tests we expect of cadets for progression (leadership and AE)?  We expect them to read their textbooks and study outside of CAP for those tests, so why shouldn't we expect that they prepare for the CPFT outside of CAP?   We shouldn't, because there's no difference.   We only have a few contact hours a week with these cadets, so a portion of what we do is set up structures (evaluative tests) that encourage them to do the right stuff when we're not at meetings.

Nobody is picking on the "fat kid" as you suggest here.  However, first of all, when a youth comes to your squadron for prospective membership, there should be a frank discussion with both the cadets and parents about what the obligations and expectations are of cadets.  What the standards are to move through promotions, what the PT standards he or she will be expected to meet for their Curry achievement and how that will toughen over time, obeying superiors, and all those other expectations.  I actually a full sheet called "Cadet Expectations" that goes with every potential cadet application packet.

There are only two scenarios I can think of for cadets having problems with PT (when they first join, or mid-way into the program):

If a cadet comes into the program, and needs more than 12+ months to pass the Curry-level CPFT requirements, then you've done him or her a disservice by failing to express the entry level requirements.  If you're accepting cadets into your program who are extremely obese, and then they find out after they've joined that they're stuck at Cadet Airman Basic because it will take them 12+ months to make the necessary improvements, then you've failed the cadet by not letting them know what they expectations were ahead of time.  Shame on you, in that case.

If a cadet is already progressing through the program (in other words, has passed at least the Curry standards at some point) and then hits a wall, that cadet is fully capable of overcoming that (again, this whole discussion is barring legitimate medical issues) within 12 months.  The requirements are gradually made more difficult.  From one phase to the next, and from one age to the next year, the requirements don't jump.  It's usually a 10-20% improvement.  If a cadet is at the minimum physical fitness of a curry cadet, they can -- with effort -- make it to the next level within 12 months.  I would bet my own money on it.    What realistically happens is that cadets hit a barrier and don't put any or enough effort into overcoming it.  The worst thing you can do is tell them that's okay or acceptable.

So if a cadet cannot pass PT, it is either because either:
a) the unit leadership isn't at fault for failing to be honest about standards and expectations to recruits
b) the cadet isn't trying, or
c) there's a legitimate medical issue (which we have waivers for).


To conclude, I've had cadets who have had issues with weight, and with some serious motivational pushing, I have watched cadets in my squadron shave 5+ minutes off their mile time.  But ultimately, it was because they tried and we encouraged them to try, and gave them the right education and tools to know how to try correctly.    I'm not saying don't push your cadets.  Quite the opposite, I'm saying push them hard to better themselves.  Find ways to motivate them more.

At our squadron, almost all of the senior members get out there and run with the cadets during the CPFT.  It's motivational for the cadets, and we have a little inter-SM rivalry going (my commander beat me by 2-seconds last time... I was pulling in a slow 6:37 mile).   I usually give the cadets a good-natured hard time about an old man passing them on the mile circut.  And we have senior members who stick behind and run with cadets who have the most difficulty with the run events.   Cadets stand on the sidelines and cheer each other on for other PT events, and we encourage cadets to well surpass the minimum needed to pass.  The last CPFT I recall, we had the whole squadron cheering on one of our cadets as he continued pass the 100 mark doing the 3-count pushups (the proper CAP way, no less).  It's a point of pride for the cadets to do well, but the cadets encourage their fellow cadets who aren't there yet.

It's not that we don't have cadets who fail their CPFT.  It's that we motivate them, and give them the education and tools to pass, and then tell them that we all expect them to pass.   If, in the long-term, they just consistently don't improve, they're not trying and CAP isn't for them.  I don't see how any of that is "hating on the fat kid".

[AirAux]

While some on the board would have you kill and eat the weak ones, I think some commander discretion may be in order.  I once had a cadet that could not pass the stretch and reach.  Could not.  He was about 5' 6" tall and all legs.  Very short from his waist to his neck.  Long legs and short arms.  However, the test is for flexibility.  This cadet could lay his head on his thighs he was so flexible.  We passed him and 3 years later he is a very successful cadet in Puerto Rico and is 6'2" tall and has no problems with any of the PT..  But according to some I should have thrown him out..This isn't rocket science or the real military..  This is a program to help children grow and learn and associate with a better grade of child than that at school..

[Spike]

Ok.  From now on, I will suggest that the Cadets get a Doctors note to move them into Category 3, so they do not have to do PT and only need to pass Aerospace and Leadership.

Seriously though, the heavier kids are at a bigger disadvantage coming into CAP (which is an equal opportunity and non discriminatory organization) than the kid that has a no body fat. 

Is being fat a protected group in regards to discrimination or EO?? 

[NC Hokie]

Also, saying CAP doesn't have a real physical fitness program only highlights that CAP in the unit's your familiar with aren't implementing the program properly.  Holding a CPFT program once a month is not what CAP has in mind.  There is a whole portion of the physical fitness pamphlet about everything from group exercises and stretching, to PT education.  There's no mandatory minimum to the Aerospace Education CP program component, yet units usually manage to mention to involve AE more than 30 minutes a month in their schedules.  Doing any less for physical fitness -- a fully equal element of the cadet program to leadership, AE, character development, and activities -- is a disservice to the cadets.   Units ideally would be conducting both group exercise activities (working in new stretches and calisthenics so cadets can learn from them) as well as educational activities.   Again, doing just the CPFT once a month is, in my opinion, a disservice and a failure to the cadets.

Would you care to share your schedule with the rest of us?  The CPFT alone takes a full hour in my squadron, and I simply do not see how I can devote ANOTHER 15-20 minutes per night to PT without taking time away from other required elements of the cadet program.

I actually have a full sheet called "Cadet Expectations" that goes with every potential cadet application packet.

Now THAT's a tool I could use. Share?

[Spike]

Pylon....where does the PT Pamphlet lay out a PT program to implement.  For Aerospace there are many details on how to construct a program.  The PT Pamphlet is just a piece of paper waste that was thrown together with existing information found on Google at the time it was written.  It does not detail any running, sit-up, push-up or sit and reach skills, plans, goals or objectives.

CAP does NOT have a PT program.  It is not even written into 52-16 other than the part about testing and how we should instill a healthy lifestyle into Cadets. 

All that is required (as written) is testing once a month at minimum. 

Now, please share how you conduct your "all-encompassing" Physical Fitness Program in your Squadron. 

[tsrup]

Pylon....where does the PT Pamphlet lay out a PT program to implement.  For Aerospace there are many details on how to construct a program.  The PT Pamphlet is just a piece of paper waste that was thrown together with existing information found on Google at the time it was written.  It does not detail any running, sit-up, push-up or sit and reach skills, plans, goals or objectives.

CAP does NOT have a PT program.  It is not even written into 52-16 other than the part about testing and how we should instill a healthy lifestyle into Cadets. 

All that is required (as written) is testing once a month at minimum. 

Now, please share how you conduct your "all-encompassing" Physical Fitness Program in your Squadron.

CAP does not have a PT program.  However CAP has PT Goals that are laid out very clearly for each cadet.  It is our jobs as CP guru's to help cadet's achieve these goals.  If this means we have to tailor make a pt plan for our squadron than so be it.  This also doesn't mean that we have to be the ones to do it.  Assign a cadet to do it, but be clear that this is not the time to show off how much more in shape he/she is to the other cadets.  It will ultimately be at your discretion as to whether the plan is safe and feasible. 

If a cadet has been given all the tools they need to succeed and they choose not to use them, then they have failed.

If a cadet has been allowed to flounder along because we couldn't do some out-of-the-box thinking, then we have failed them.

There is nothing wrong with implementing your own pt strategy as long as you apply some good 'ole Mk.1 common sense and some safety conciousness.


On the other side, I'm guessing that a spelt plan was never created by national because of the wide variety of situations we encounter.  One squadron may have a very young base, one could be all older highschool kids.  Geography is also a consideration, I cannot have my Cadets run outside during the late fall, winter, early spring as the temperatures are too low and the risk of an ice related injury is too high, we do have intermittent access to an indoor track, but what about other squadrons that aren't so fortunate. 
This is why we've been given goals to achieve.  We now get a chance to create our solution.  We should be happy that national has kept a little bit of faith in our problem solving abilities.

Or maybe it was just an oversite... as usual.

[davidsinn]

While some on the board would have you kill and eat the weak ones, I think some commander discretion may be in order.  I once had a cadet that could not pass the stretch and reach.  Could not.  He was about 5' 6" tall and all legs.  Very short from his waist to his neck.  Long legs and short arms.  However, the test is for flexibility.  This cadet could lay his head on his thighs he was so flexible.  We passed him and 3 years later he is a very successful cadet in Puerto Rico and is 6'2" tall and has no problems with any of the PT..  But according to some I should have thrown him out..This isn't rocket science or the real military..  This is a program to help children grow and learn and associate with a better grade of child than that at school..

You're not allowed to have discretion in CPFT. However a cadet only needs to pass two out of three plus one of the runs.

[Eclipse]

You're not allowed to have discretion in CPFT. However a cadet only needs to pass two out of three plus one of the runs.

An excellent point - CPFT is not subjective or "best effort".  They make it or they don't.

[AirAux]

Until CAP supplies my squadron with a measured 1 mile track, a measured shuttle run track, a proper chronometer, an objective way to measure sit ups and push-ups, there will be discretion involved and it will bend toward the cadets whenever possible.  Don't like it, fire me..

[tsrup]

Until CAP supplies my squadron with a measured 1 mile track, a measured shuttle run track, a proper chronometer, an objective way to measure sit ups and push-ups, there will be discretion involved and it will bend toward the cadets whenever possible.  Don't like it, fire me..

you're only cheating them.



and how hard is it to measure a shuttle run track... honestly.
There is no discretion involved with push up, their elbows either create a 90 degree angle or they don't, and the manual is pretty specific about what constitutes a complete sit up. 
As for the mile track problem, if you cant solve it with your car's odometer, then there are plenty of websites that utilize google earth to do that for you.  I'll leave the google fu up to you as apparently all of the above was to far above and beyond the manual..

[Pylon]

Until CAP supplies my squadron with a measured 1 mile track, a measured shuttle run track, a proper chronometer, an objective way to measure sit ups and push-ups, there will be discretion involved and it will bend toward the cadets whenever possible.  Don't like it, fire me..

With that attitude, I would actually.  $30 can buy you a measuring wheel from a hardware store.  You might even be able to borrow a measuring wheel from a construction company -- just ask around.  I borrowed one from my company's maintenance department and marked out exact 1-mile courses (and for pacing purposes marked each quarter mile point), as well as measured and marked out a shuttle run stretch.  Borrow or bought doesn't matter -- Walk the mile with a wheel and measure it out the inch.   It's not rocket science, but the regulations are clear.  You do it to the letter of the regulation, or you're cheating.

Saying "Oh, if NHQ doesn't provide me with all the tools necessary to run a squadron without any effort or creative thinking on my part, I get free license to skate around any rules I wish" won't win you any points, sympathy, or respect around here.  And it's certainly not setting a great example for your cadets, either.  They call it leadership for a reason.

All that is required (as written) is testing once a month at minimum. 

Good thing there aren't too many squadrons who only do the few things that are required once a month.  If there weren't squadrons who actually expanded on the bare minimums, there would be a lot more shorted cadets out there. 

[Pylon]

Would you care to share your schedule with the rest of us?  The CPFT alone takes a full hour in my squadron, and I simply do not see how I can devote ANOTHER 15-20 minutes per night to PT without taking time away from other required elements of the cadet program.

Sure, I will find some schedules.  I never found it hard to get it all in there.  We actually did physical fitness twice a month, and the second time a month was group exercise (calisthenics, group runs, etc.).  The group runs were very motivational.  A bunch of cadets out there with their squadron guidon, senior members also in formation, running at double-time for a few miles, having cadet NCOs take turns calling out jodies and leading the flight... it always pumped everybody up and built tons of motivation and esprit de corps.  One of my favorite activities was to fall in the back with a few of the other seniors and run with the cadets.

I actually have a full sheet called "Cadet Expectations" that goes with every potential cadet application packet.

Now THAT's a tool I could use. Share?

Attached.  It's just one document of our welcome packet.  Well, actually there are two welcome packet for potential cadets.  One for the cadet, and one for the parent.  The cadet packet has a letter from the DCC, some recruiting literature (the new cadet programs rack card from NHQ and a squadron flyer), a CAP Fact Sheet, the Cadet Expectations Sheet, and then our application packet -- a checklist of everything they need to join, the CAPF 15, a CAPF 60, Cadet Uniform Return Agreement, and another agreement the recruits sign with their parents stating they will adhere to our program requirements, understand the involvement level and expectations set forth, etc.

[Cleaver]

Thanks to you all.  Most of you had really useful comments and suggestions.  These cadets I am referring to are really outstanding cadets in the other areas so we really don't want to loose them.   I think if I intercede right away and find the root of the problem we should be able to help.  These cadets are not content to be airman they want to progress so I think they will put in the effort. 

Pylon--your attachments are great, thanks for sharing.  You have an awesome attitude.

Spike--Being overweight doesn't have to be permanent.  The cadets just need the right motivation to change it.  It's easier to do when they're young.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Another thing to consider. Before the age of 12-14 (Junior High-High School), how many kids EVER ran a mile?

I know we only did one or two while in 7-8th grades.

Endurance is the hardest thing, and cadets in that age group really do need someone who will help them get there.

[AirAux]

I think some may have missed my drift.  I do everything I can to keep cadets motivated and on the program.  That being said, I am not going to take a 12 year old and work with him a year to get him in shape before I promote him IF he is motivated and doing everything else right.  I want to see him/her get the Curry and get to the first summer encampment they can.  This alone will help to motivate a cadet to try harder and work hard to get into shape and succeed.  Some cadets are in perfect shape when they come and some can't run a mile or do push-ups, but in  a year we will have them at their PT level and they will be progressing in the program.  I am not going to delay a cadet's promotion to Curry IF PT is the only obstacle and they are trying..  This is getting close to discrimination against fatties and/or couch potatoes and that is not the gist of our program.  If a fat kid comes out and tries, he deserves kudos for the guts to even do that.  He should not be made to feel like a failure because he is below our standards when he joins.  We don't have required standards nor weight standards for our youth.  Some of the the little lard balls have become some macho marines 6 years down the road..  Might not have happened without our reassurances and help..

[Eclipse]

I am not going to delay a cadet's promotion to Curry IF PT is the only obstacle and they are trying..  This is getting close to discrimination against fatties and/or couch potatoes and that is not the gist of our program.  If a fat kid comes out and tries, he deserves kudos for the guts to even do that.  He should not be made to feel like a failure because he is below our standards when he joins.  We don't have required standards nor weight standards for our youth.

Big time no-no, and one of the reasons we have cadets who show up ill prepared for encampments.

Air, I'm sure you are well-intentioned on this, but that's not how it works and you know it.

This had nothing to do whatsoever about discrimination, and waving that flag is not going to help your argument.

[AirAux]

Okay, I guess you guys are right, I will just tell them that they aren't good enough for us and to join the Boy Scouts..  The ones that have slipped through, I will tighten the requirements to match the Reg's and join the rest of you on retention rates.. And here I though I was doing something good for somebody.. Oh well, There's not a program out there that can't be driven into the ground by micromanagement..   

[Майор Хаткевич]

I am not going to delay a cadet's promotion to Curry IF PT is the only obstacle and they are trying..  This is getting close to discrimination against fatties and/or couch potatoes and that is not the gist of our program.  If a fat kid comes out and tries, he deserves kudos for the guts to even do that.  He should not be made to feel like a failure because he is below our standards when he joins.  We don't have required standards nor weight standards for our youth.

Big time no-no, and one of the reasons we have cadets who show up ill prepared for encampments.

Air, I'm sure you are well-intentioned on this, but that's not how it works and you know it.

This had nothing to do whatsoever about discrimination, and waving that flag is not going to help your argument.

Sir, I've seen many cadets who went to Encampment, and were not only overweight, but borderline obese. I don't doubt that some of those (most?) didn't pass their Curry PT, I know and have seen, and have had cadets tell me that they were pencil whipped on their first PT in something. A few years later, quite a number of them went on to become good C/Officers and motivated other cadets to become future leaders as well.

It's not right, and it doesn't follow the regs, but it's part necessary evil, part more to the spirit of CAP than having a cadet at C/AB for a year until they drop off the list.

[Eclipse]

Okay, I guess you guys are right, I will just tell them that they aren't good enough for us and to join the Boy Scouts..  The ones that have slipped through, I will tighten the requirements to match the Reg's and join the rest of you on retention rates.. And here I though I was doing something good for somebody.. Oh well, There's not a program out there that can't be driven into the ground by micromanagement..

Retention of cadets who cannot meet the minimums doesn't do anyone any good, including the cadets.
The numbers are objective specifically to avoid conversations like these.

[jeders]

Okay, I guess you guys are right, I will just tell them that they aren't good enough for us and to join the Boy Scouts..  The ones that have slipped through, I will tighten the requirements to match the Reg's and join the rest of you on retention rates.. And here I though I was doing something good for somebody.. Oh well, There's not a program out there that can't be driven into the ground by micromanagement..

Retention of cadets who cannot meet the minimums doesn't do anyone any good, including the cadets.
The numbers are objective specifically to avoid conversations like these.

Not to mention, that if you have cadets who can't pass the Curry PT, especially after any extended period of time, your cadets probably have larger motivational problems. I know the standards and practices have changed since I joined, but I could barely jog and was able to blow away the Curry PT requirements.

If a cadet has problems with passing the PT, then either work with them or have someone else work for them for a month and there should be no issues.

[flydoggy]

In our Sq. the cadets who can not run the mile are allowed to do a shuttle run. Doing the shuttle run has allowed many cadets to promote.

[davidsinn]

In our Sq. the cadets who can not run the mile are allowed to do a shuttle run. Doing the shuttle run has allowed many cadets to promote.

And that's exactly how you're supposed to do it. I'm fat and older than the cadets and I could probably knock out the shuttle run. I know I wouldn't get a mile under time

[Майор Хаткевич]

In our Sq. the cadets who can not run the mile are allowed to do a shuttle run. Doing the shuttle run has allowed many cadets to promote.

Some can't pass both. Shuttle isn't the same as the mile anyway, and it has tough goals as well.

[Pylon]

AirAux, that's pretty much admitting serious compromise of the regulations and the integrity of cadet promotions.   You can give a cadet motivation, encouragement, guidance and support to reach their goals.  But if you give them the promotions anyways, and let them go to encampment and whatever anyways, not only are you now running your own (illegal) version of the cadet program, what incentive do the cadets have to work their hardest, if they know you'll pin them at some point anyways.  What's next?  Letting a few extra wrong questions slide on the written tests because the cadet has taken it 3 or 4 times and hasn't passed?  Frankly your actions devalue the hard work all of my cadets (and the cadets in the dozens of other units) who struggle and work hard to meet the standard, as written, accurately measured, and are held to that.

I can't agree with you or your position in the least bit and I find no room for compromise here.

The Curry standards are based on data from the Presidential physical fitness challenge, and is designed for the 25% percentile. In other words, 75% of the American public should be able to walk off the streets and immediately meet the Curry CPFT standards.

If you're taking in cadets that have that much trouble passing the Curry that after months on end, they need you to overlook the rules and give them a free pass, then you've failed to appropriately communicate the expectations to these cadets before they joined.  Be honest, you should be able to tell if a kid is so out of shape that within 6 to 12 months he still wouldn't be able to run a 10 minute mile or crank out a dozen pushups.  You can (and should) communicate these standards to potential recruits before they join and you wouldn't be in that position to begin with.

Again, I'm not saying PT is easy for many cadets.  I think for many it's a great deal of work.  But it's our job to implement the program as is, and encourage the cadets within the structure of the regulations.  It works amazingly well when you do it right.

[Al Sayre]

On other thing that should be mentioned is that if the Cadet(s) are seriously obese or having that much trouble, they should probably get a check up by their physician.  I have recommended that to several over the years, and sent along a copy of the PT standards.  In two cases, the cadets came back with a letter from their doctor stating that they should not do certain activities for various reasons, one was diagnosed with asthma at age 15.  He had never noticed it or mentioned it to his Dr. until he had to run the mile and almost passed out...

[Майор Хаткевич]

I've called the PPFC people, and the tests were done in the 80s, and then again in the 90s. Some of the things weren't re-done in the 90s, and the samples weren't quite big enough to make it a true comparison. Also don't forget that obesity is on the rise, which would skew the results from even a decade ago to now.

[Майор Хаткевич]

On other thing that should be mentioned is that if the Cadet(s) are seriously obese or having that much trouble, they should probably get a check up by their physician.  I have recommended that to several over the years, and sent along a copy of the PT standards.  In two cases, the cadets came back with a letter from their doctor stating that they should not do certain activities for various reasons, one was diagnosed with asthma at age 15.  He had never noticed it or mentioned it to his Dr. until he had to run the mile and almost passed out...

Me thinks we need to have physicals done for all cadets anyway.

[Flying Pig]

They are struggling to pass the CPFT and earn their curry achievement.

Confiscate their X-box...

I have compassion for cadets who have poor life habits...to a point.  However, short of a disability or an injury, I have found this is almost always the case.  If you cant run a mile as a cadet, you have some issues.  If you cant run a mile and you have been a cadet for a while....you have issues.  Join the track team, join the swim team.  Join Jenny Craig.
When you separate the emotion of "but he/she tries" out of it, they usually aren't trying hard enough.  Plain and simple.  I would bet your cadets arent doing much the other 29 days per month.  Showing up and barfing once per month isn't trying.  Its denial.

[tsrup]

Anyone who thinks that breaking testing regulations is a necessary evil needs to be fired from being a Testing Officer.  Plain and simple.  There is no middle ground.  It is this idea of pencil whipped promotions that take whatever meaning a cadet rank has and trashes it.  By helping one cadet remain motivated you are destroying the motivation of the others. 

There is also the operational factor, if a cadet is a curry, and they cant pass a curry CPFT, are they going to be suited for a GT mission?  Or will they become a liability?   

[Майор Хаткевич]

Anyone who thinks that breaking testing regulations is a necessary evil needs to be fired from being a Testing Officer.  Plain and simple.  There is no middle ground.  It is this idea of pencil whipped promotions that take whatever meaning a cadet rank has and trashes it.  By helping one cadet remain motivated you are destroying the motivation of the others. 

There is also the operational factor, if a cadet is a curry, and they cant pass a curry CPFT, are they going to be suited for a GT mission?  Or will they become a liability?   

The few cases I know of and mentioned, it was down to the wire in seconds/number of sit-ups, CM or two, etc.

I was talking about a few cases where the cadet probably doesn't even know it happened.

[tsrup]

Anyone who thinks that breaking testing regulations is a necessary evil needs to be fired from being a Testing Officer.  Plain and simple.  There is no middle ground.  It is this idea of pencil whipped promotions that take whatever meaning a cadet rank has and trashes it.  By helping one cadet remain motivated you are destroying the motivation of the others. 

There is also the operational factor, if a cadet is a curry, and they cant pass a curry CPFT, are they going to be suited for a GT mission?  Or will they become a liability?   

The few cases I know of and mentioned, it was down to the wire in seconds/number of sit-ups, CM or two, etc.

I was talking about a few cases where the cadet probably doesn't even know it happened.

So how many seconds is it acceptable to apply the fudge factor, how many sit-ups, how many pushups?

I'll tell you, and it's actually really easy.  ZERO.  If I caught wind of one of my cadets adjusting their numbers it would be a while before they promoted again and not without a series of CAPF 50's.     

[Майор Хаткевич]

The cadets weren't "fudging" their own records. It was done by SMs.

I'm sorry you view it this way, but as someone who has struggled with weight, I understand some of what must have been in the SMs minds. Typically, I just ran with the cadet and "sacrificed" my own PT to help them pass. But that's just me, and that's how a certain C/Capt helped me pass my first PT when I just joined as well.

But while we're on it sir, Please do let me know how you'd tell an obese prospect that he might as well take a hike since he won't pass a PT, probably for a while. Also tell me how you would keep the lawyers at bay. Sure some can get medical waivers, but not everyone can get one, and some medical conditions won't cause a necessary limitation on physical activity while adding on pounds.

[jimmydeanno]

Sometimes, all it takes is just talking to the cadets that are having the issues.

Just like the boomer generation, winning is a very big deal to the cadets that are coming up now.  They're raised to be over-achievers, compete for slots in everything, etc.  Giving them some perspective that they're doing a great job and that everyone has something that is their challenge in life can go a long way.

I had a cadet that took a year to shave 9 minutes off their mile run time until they got promoted.  We talked quite a bit about diet, working out routines and facing challenges head on.  It took a year, but he finally made it.  Put some (good) pressure on them to succeed, talk about some of the carrots in front of them.  Keep reminding them of how well they're doing in the rest of the program, etc.

Just be supportive and offer to help them in any way you can.  The cadet program needs good mentors and leaders for just these situations. 

Thanks for supporting them!

[tsrup]

The cadets weren't "fudging" their own records. It was done by SMs.

I'm sorry you view it this way, but as someone who has struggled with weight, I understand some of what must have been in the SMs minds. Typically, I just ran with the cadet and "sacrificed" my own PT to help them pass. But that's just me, and that's how a certain C/Capt helped me pass my first PT when I just joined as well.

But while we're on it sir, Please do let me know how you'd tell an obese prospect that he might as well take a hike since he won't pass a PT, probably for a while. Also tell me how you would keep the lawyers at bay. Sure some can get medical waivers, but not everyone can get one, and some medical conditions won't cause a necessary limitation on physical activity while adding on pounds.

There will be no legal ramifications towards myself and my squadron if I apply the regulation as it is stated equally among cadets.  Discrimination could be called into play if I were to fudge the numbers on some, and not others. 

If you want to look at it from a CYOA approach, all of those using threats of discrimination as their guise for their dismissal of the regulation are only opening themselves toward lawsuit, not the other way around.

If the regulations are discriminatory, that is for the lawyers and national to figure out.  Until then I will apply the regulation as is to all of my cadets without exception. 

I'm sorry you have had experience with SMs who lacked the integrity to do their duties as testing officers.  This is not the kind of role models we need to have in CP.

[tsrup]

Sometimes, all it takes is just talking to the cadets that are having the issues.

Just like the boomer generation, winning is a very big deal to the cadets that are coming up now.  They're raised to be over-achievers, compete for slots in everything, etc.  Giving them some perspective that they're doing a great job and that everyone has something that is their challenge in life can go a long way.

I had a cadet that took a year to shave 9 minutes off their mile run time until they got promoted.  We talked quite a bit about diet, working out routines and facing challenges head on.  It took a year, but he finally made it.  Put some (good) pressure on them to succeed, talk about some of the carrots in front of them.  Keep reminding them of how well they're doing in the rest of the program, etc.

Just be supportive and offer to help them in any way you can.  The cadet program needs good mentors and leaders for just these situations. 

Thanks for supporting them!

This +10000   :clap:

[heliodoc]

^^^

Good work tsrup!!

Mentorship is what is sorely lacking in CAP.  Sure it takes time to mentor people

What's this organization about anyway??  Bling and self promotion/ self service.  Sure is.  See it plenty in CAP ,,,,if it's not benefiting ME..I am not going to do it....not going to instruct.

But you see some of these CAPTalkers talkin LARGE for the 2b pile ready to sign and drum em out of the program!!

Sure there are REGS ....which many here on CAPTalk are SOOOOOO fond  of and ready to cite regs as if it was the only thing to do in CAP.

Sit down with the people and cadets that need to meet the requirements and push em along a little...

Community service in CAP??  That is a BS card when Sqdn CC's  and other a re ready to give the boot when CAP is trying to find ways to bolster the organization.  Want to help CAP bolster ranks.....help the folks out til they want the help then MAYBE start the 2b process

Which is it CAPTalkers??  Maintaining what Sqdn have through membership and building it up? 

Can't have it both ways in a VOLUNTEER organization.   Maybe when the AF starts really putting the hammer down......then SOME of you CAPTalkers will have your glory daze writing all the offenders of the uniform and PT a 2b.  I know, I know we have regs and plenty of us are following them..but there are CAPTalker here who seem to be self appointed uniform and PT monitors.

Surely not mentors by any stretch of the imagination

[Seabee219]

They are struggling to pass the CPFT and earn their curry achievement.

Confiscate their X-box...

Nice touch, to many games.....