*****URGENT HELP PLEASE*****

Started by GabeTP, February 04, 2016, 09:37:29 PM

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Tim Day

I think what many folks of a certain generation don't understand about cadets is that the military and CAP uses many formal correspondence formats that aren't taught in public school. Additionally, we tend to assume cadet NCO training covers this material.

The problem is that this assumption is false. Our leadership material covers leadership theory and practice, not administrative processes with which a military NCO would be familiar. So, comments like "you're an NCO, you should know how to do this" reflect assumptions about C/NCO training that don't reflect the reality of our C/NCO training.

This is one reason we've established an advanced training squadron at VAWG encampment. We have an NCO-size gap in the training curriculum between encampment and RCLS.

A few squadrons have successfully taught their cadets to use the CAP Indexes, Regulations, and Manuals page to, for example, look up the regulation that covers "Preparing for Official Correspondence", CAPR 10-1, but most have not. I've personally seen this training gap across our wing (last year we asked cadre candidates to submit forwarding letters in official format - that was an eye opener).

Holding a C/NCO to NCO standards of integrity, respect, excellence, and volunteer service is appropriate. Holding them to NCO training standards as regards administrative procedures and correspondence format is counter-productive.
   
Tim Day
Lt Col CAP
Prince William Composite Squadron Commander

THRAWN

The instructions were clearly spelled out. There was no need to use the index to try to determine what format to use and where to find it. Applying for staff is a job interview. If you can't get through the application process without issue, then you're probably not the type of candidate that will be successful. As far as members of a "certain generation", they learned how to "look it up". Those basics need to be reinforced. The NCO comment is spot on. By the time  cadet is an NCO he should know how to find info in the regs and know the appropriate method of finding out information for activities.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Tim Day

Quote from: THRAWN on February 05, 2016, 02:42:34 PM
The instructions were clearly spelled out. There was no need to use the index to try to determine what format to use and where to find it. Applying for staff is a job interview. If you can't get through the application process without issue, then you're probably not the type of candidate that will be successful. As far as members of a "certain generation", they learned how to "look it up". Those basics need to be reinforced.
You've missed the point. I agree the basics need to be reinforced through training. But the basics of memorandum-writing aren't part of the CP curriculum at the cadet NCO level. Holding cadets (or anyone) accountable for standards to which they are not trained is counter-productive.

The instructions cite CAPR 10-1. The index link I sent is the way members download a copy of the CAPR 10-1. So while there may not be a need to use the index, it's probably helpful to a cadet who asked a question of other members including senior members.

By the way, how are we doing at reinforcing the basics of cadet program leadership in this thread? Are we modeling leadership or something else when we dog-pile on a cadet who is asking for help?

I also disagree with your assertion that understanding how to write a CAPR 10-1 format memorandum has anything to do with being a successful cadre member (nor is that a CAPP 52-24 requirement).
Tim Day
Lt Col CAP
Prince William Composite Squadron Commander

THRAWN

Quote from: Tim Day on February 05, 2016, 02:58:54 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on February 05, 2016, 02:42:34 PM
The instructions were clearly spelled out. There was no need to use the index to try to determine what format to use and where to find it. Applying for staff is a job interview. If you can't get through the application process without issue, then you're probably not the type of candidate that will be successful. As far as members of a "certain generation", they learned how to "look it up". Those basics need to be reinforced.
You've missed the point. I agree the basics need to be reinforced through training. But the basics of memorandum-writing aren't part of the CP curriculum at the cadet NCO level. Holding cadets (or anyone) accountable for standards to which they are not trained is counter-productive.

The instructions cite CAPR 10-1. The index link I sent is the way members download a copy of the CAPR 10-1. So while there may not be a need to use the index, it's probably helpful to a cadet who asked a question of other members including senior members.

By the way, how are we doing at reinforcing the basics of cadet program leadership in this thread? Are we modeling leadership or something else when we dog-pile on a cadet who is asking for help?

I also disagree with your assertion that understanding how to write a CAPR 10-1 format memorandum has anything to do with being a successful cadre member (nor is that a CAPP 52-24 requirement).

You missed the point. The instructions tell the applicant the format for the application and where to find it. If you're unable to follow the instructions in the first line of those instructions then you are not going to be a successful applicant. As for dogpiling, you might want to redirect that to someone that it applies to.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Pace

Quote from: THRAWN on February 05, 2016, 03:06:02 PM
As for dogpiling, you might want to redirect that to someone that it applies to.
It does. Replies #5 and #7 to this thread.
Lt Col, CAP

THRAWN

Quote from: Pace on February 05, 2016, 03:24:41 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on February 05, 2016, 03:06:02 PM
As for dogpiling, you might want to redirect that to someone that it applies to.
It does. Replies #5 and #7 to this thread.

You need new glasses. I'm the only one that provided an answer to the question. If that's dogpiling, cover me in Alpo.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Pace

Yes you did, and yet the point is that it was given in a fashion that would never be tolerated in person, at least not under my command.
QuoteGet in touch with them about 3 weeks ago.
QuoteYour failure to plan and not do the slightest bit or research into the topic before hitting the panic button is not our emergency. Info has been out for over 60 days

That kind of tone isn't leadership or mentoring. It's sarcastic management, and it is counter productive to the ideals we claim to be enforcing, namely respect.
Lt Col, CAP

Garibaldi

Quote from: Pace on February 05, 2016, 03:24:41 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on February 05, 2016, 03:06:02 PM
As for dogpiling, you might want to redirect that to someone that it applies to.
It does. Replies #5 and #7 to this thread.

With respect, I don't see it. He did answer the cadet twice and gave information, but I've seen others nailing this cadet for attitude.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

THRAWN

Quote from: Pace on February 05, 2016, 03:38:14 PM
Yes you did, and yet the point is that it was given in a fashion that would never be tolerated in person, at least not under my command.
QuoteGet in touch with them about 3 weeks ago.
QuoteYour failure to plan and not do the slightest bit or research into the topic before hitting the panic button is not our emergency. Info has been out for over 60 days

That kind of tone isn't leadership or mentoring. It's sarcastic management, and it is counter productive to the ideals we claim to be enforcing, namely respect.

You preach about respect but have no issue calling me out in a public forum. That wouldn't happen under my command, hypocrite.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

xray328

Quote from: Tim Day on February 05, 2016, 01:39:36 PM
I think what many folks of a certain generation don't understand about cadets is that the military and CAP uses many formal correspondence formats that aren't taught in public school. Additionally, we tend to assume cadet NCO training covers this material.

The problem is that this assumption is false. Our leadership material covers leadership theory and practice, not administrative processes with which a military NCO would be familiar. So, comments like "you're an NCO, you should know how to do this" reflect assumptions about C/NCO training that don't reflect the reality of our C/NCO training.

This is one reason we've established an advanced training squadron at VAWG encampment. We have an NCO-size gap in the training curriculum between encampment and RCLS.

A few squadrons have successfully taught their cadets to use the CAP Indexes, Regulations, and Manuals page to, for example, look up the regulation that covers "Preparing for Official Correspondence", CAPR 10-1, but most have not. I've personally seen this training gap across our wing (last year we asked cadre candidates to submit forwarding letters in official format - that was an eye opener).

Holding a C/NCO to NCO standards of integrity, respect, excellence, and volunteer service is appropriate. Holding them to NCO training standards as regards administrative procedures and correspondence format is counter-productive.


My two cadets attended the NH Wing NCOLS, I highly recommend it.  Not sure if all Wings have one, maybe this is a regional activity?  Definitely filled that gap though.

CAPDCCMOM

Ok Everyone. This is getting a little bit too heated. I will own my part in the current debacle. I made several comments that were out of line. I own my share. I also admitted I was wrong. Sometimes we are so concerned about being "Right", we forget about being "Correct".

Again My Apologies for my part in the dust up.

Luis R. Ramos

With respect, your being an administrator does not give you a right to be infallible.

In those replies by Thrawn you cited, he has shown leadership and training, not "sarcastic" anything. He presented the cadet where he erred, and how to correct it. You made a mistake by calling out Thrawn.

You owe Thrawn an apology.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Pace

Quote from: THRAWN on February 05, 2016, 03:42:12 PM
You preach about respect but have no issue calling me out in a public forum. That wouldn't happen under my command, hypocrite.
I did not specifically call you out until you claimed that my warning did not apply to you. Up to that point my comments had been via PM. I didn't send you a PM because I thought everyone got the messege and moved on. You are on point that I would never call someone out publicly in person, and for that I apologize. This goes beyond just you though.

This also serves as a very sharp public statement that flaming of cadets will not be tolerated. I don't know how long you all have been on this board, but there used to be a very large cadet presence on this forum. That isn't the case now, and it is in part because of how cadets are treated here time and time again. And as a general statement regarding how cadets are treated on CAPTalk, I think it is completely disgraceful. If age and immaturity get the best of someone followed by a lack of redirection, the admins/mods have always swiftly dealt with it.
Lt Col, CAP

THRAWN

Quote from: Pace on February 05, 2016, 04:10:40 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on February 05, 2016, 03:42:12 PM
You preach about respect but have no issue calling me out in a public forum. That wouldn't happen under my command, hypocrite.
I did not specifically call you out until you claimed that my warning did not apply to you. Up to that point my comments had been via PM. I didn't send you a PM because I thought everyone got the messege and moved on. You are on point that I would never call someone out publicly in person, and for that I apologize. This goes beyond just you though.

This also serves as a very sharp public statement that flaming of cadets will not be tolerated. I don't know how long you all have been on this board, but there used to be a very large cadet presence on this forum. That isn't the case now, and it is in part because of how cadets are treated here time and time again. And as a general statement regarding how cadets are treated on CAPTalk, I think it is completely disgraceful. If age and immaturity get the best of someone followed by a lack of redirection, the admins/mods have always swiftly dealt with it.

Accepted and extended back to you.

What's next?
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

LSThiker

Quote from: Pace on February 05, 2016, 04:10:40 PM
This also serves as a very sharp public statement that flaming of cadets will not be tolerated. I don't know how long you all have been on this board, but there used to be a very large cadet presence on this forum. That isn't the case now, and it is in part because of how cadets are treated here time and time again. And as a general statement regarding how cadets are treated on CAPTalk, I think it is completely disgraceful. If age and immaturity get the best of someone followed by a lack of redirection, the admins/mods have always swiftly dealt with it.

Dan,

I agree.  This was also the case for cadetstuff.  As the years went by the same mentality was observed and new forum members, mostly younger cadets, would leave quite often.  While I have seen it happen in other forums, it is usually to a lesser degree than what is observed here.  It is probably due to the fact that we have what would be considered a "base knowledge" concept with a "rule book".  That is, for backpacking and photography forums, which I frequent often, there is really no base knowledge, no standards, no rule books, no anything.  The questions usually revolve on personal preferences and "newbie" type information.  New comers to these topics go to the forums to seek advice while the experienced or pros go there to provide their opinions.

On these forums, it is usually a flaming based on ego and opinion.  Rarely will you see a person say "just read a book".

I would be curious if this happens in other forums similar to CAPTalk, such as Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. 

TheSkyHornet

Just a note---

There are squadrons who promote for the sake of promoting. I'm not going to assume anything about this cadet as I don't know him, but I've seen first-hand what happens when cadets are bumped through the ranks with minimal training and minimal accountability. I see Cadet Chiefs who have never held a duty position, never staffed encampment, and can't lead drill if their life depended on it. I don't need to ask "How did they get this far" because I already know--they were promoted without any measurable performance aside from doing the bare minimum work. It's not the fault of the cadet; it's the fault of the training program and the people managing it.


Ned

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 08, 2016, 09:32:22 PM
Just a note---

There are squadrons who promote for the sake of promoting. I'm not going to assume anything about this cadet as I don't know him, but I've seen first-hand what happens when cadets are bumped through the ranks with minimal training and minimal accountability. I see Cadet Chiefs who have never held a duty position, never staffed encampment, and can't lead drill if their life depended on it. I don't need to ask "How did they get this far" because I already know--they were promoted without any measurable performance aside from doing the bare minimum work. It's not the fault of the cadet; it's the fault of the training program and the people managing it.

I can't really disagree with the above, except to note that it is not just a cadet program problem.   We've all met seniors who appear to have been promoted ahead of their skills and abilities.   8)

(I suppose I also need to point out that while it is certainly preferable that cadets engage in leadership positions outside the squadron as often as possible, there is no requirement that a cadet NCO or officer staff an encampment to be eligible for promotion.  And anyone who "meets the minimums" does indeed meet the minimums and should be considered for promotion.  That's kind of the whole point of having minimums.

We can always have a good discussion about whether we should raise some of the minimum standards, but if you meet the standards, you meet the standard.)


Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Pace on February 05, 2016, 04:10:40 PM
I don't know how long you all have been on this board, but there used to be a very large cadet presence on this forum. That isn't the case now, and it is in part because of how cadets are treated here time and time again.


When was this time? I've been a member on this forum since early 2007, when I was a cadet, and I was one of a very few active participants who weren't SMs. It couldn't have been before that time, because CadetStuff was the place to be for cadet forums at the time. I don't believe it was after, in the 2008-2012 time period when I was less active here.


I see a lot of griping on places like facebook and other social media about CAPTalk and cadets having their internet feelings hurt, but to be honest, as someone who was a cadet on CAPTalk, was a young SM, and still is, probably on average younger by 15-20 years than most SMs here and in CAP at large, I don't see it. A lot of cadets ask some REALLY bad questions. Seriously lacking questions at times. Does that mean they deserve ridicule? Of course not.


But you know what? The responses in this thread were spot on. When was the time to do the app? Weeks ago. Ask questions? Weeks ago.


I had some of MY cadets ask me for Letters of Recommendation for Encampment, less than a week out from the deadline. They knew about the deadline for close to a month. You know what my non-CAP member wife told me? Don't do it. They didn't give you enough time to do 3 letters, and should suffer the consequences. I almost agreed with her reasoning, but figured I'd do the letters anyway, and then have a talk about timelines and requests with the cadets as a lesson after the fact. But I'm sure one day there will be a day when I refuse to write a LoR due to the timing, and let the cadet know that it's not a punishment, it's a lesson.




Pace

I was most active from 2005-2009. While cadet activity had started to taper off, it was still more active than it is today. Back then it was because certain people were always rude to cadets.

You know as well as I do that communication among SM line officers and staff is lacking more than it is adequate. Now imagine potentially how much less is communicated to the cadets. Maybe he got the memo late because he hadn't heard anything from his chain of command. Maybe he was lazy. We never found out his background. My point is that we almost always assume that cadets are lazy when they ask a question instead of answering it and then adding in helpful commentary.
Lt Col, CAP

Майор Хаткевич

It doesn't really matter. A day out is as short notice as possible.