With the demise of the NCGC and the rewriting of the regulations, what would be some guidelines for parade rifles? I understand they must be non operational, but do they need slings? And specific color they have to be?
Anything you can get your hands on from a block of wood to demilled M14's.
Two hints - practice with the wood, and the M14's are too heavy for the average cadet to be carrying around for a long time.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 01, 2014, 07:26:18 PMTwo hints - practice with the wood, and the M14's are too heavy for the average cadet to be carrying around for a long time.
Builds character. Practice with what you're going to compete with.
You've still got local/region competitions in many instances, too.
Heh - another thing which will "build character" is getting caught spinning and throwing brand new rifles
after being told specifically "never do that with these".
That's a discipline problem. Both before, and after.
Why are we here? To learn and master the materials and actions described in the rules of engagement, to come together as a team, and ultimately show the judges how hard we worked.
I don't know how much character building there is in a 5' 3" 90 pound cadet trying to hold up a 10 pound drill rifle
Muscle mass!
Quote from: Eclipse on May 01, 2014, 07:33:34 PM
Heh - another thing which will "build character" is getting caught spinning and throwing brand new rifles
after being told specifically "never do that with these".
Why would anyone on a color guard ever spin or throw a rifle? Doing so when with the colors is both dangerous and a distraction from their assigned function, that of guarding the colors. Therefore, they shouldn't be told to spin or toss. If someone decides that an actual prohibition should be given, then give it. And hold accountable anyone who violates that prohibition.
The Color Guard members I have seen throwing rifles were doing that because they were also members of a Drill Team. They were practicing the routines they would use for their drill team, not their Color Guard routines...
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 01, 2014, 10:23:31 PMWhy would anyone on a color guard ever spin or throw a rifle?
..which is why I called that a discipline problem. :)
It's not why they're there.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 01, 2014, 07:26:18 PM
Anything you can get your hands on from a block of wood to demilled M14's.
Two hints - practice with the wood, and the M14's are too heavy for the average cadet to be carrying around for a long time.
I dunno about that, Marine Corps and Navy JROTC units around use them for CG around here almost exclusively.
demilled 1903's and M1's can be had, but they are pricey. Expect to pay about $350 apiece. You can effectively forget M14's, Uncle Sam's keeping them for hisself what he has left. You can make a dummy M14 rifle from parts, but that'll cost you as much as buying a semiauto M1a from one of the makers.
There are options if you gotta have an M14....
http://www.evike.com/products/24006/ (http://www.evike.com/products/24006/)
Airsoft rifles would be a cheaper alternative if you're looking for the look. Lots of different styles out there, and just pull the gear boxes and electricals to cut down the weight and any temptation to play with it. But I wouldn't go down the Airsoft route if you're planning on flipping and spinning them. You can get rifles that are durable, but they're definitely not designed to take too many impacts on concrete or pavement.
They would have to be de-miled first....but those look nice.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 20, 2014, 01:00:36 AM
They would have to be de-miled first....but those look nice.
What's the definition of de-miled? They already can't accommodate any receiver, live rounds, etc. they're electric toy guns.
I'm sure you're seeing something, but I can't see it.
^ CAP regs do not allow parade rifles to be capable of any shooting any projectile.
At minimum you'd need to remove the entirely of the firing mechanism.
Per 52-16:
2-11. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any devices that could be used as weapons at cadet activities. The only exceptions to this policy are:
a. Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
De-activated, rendered not to be fired again. Gee, if they sold the RMA'ed airsoft stuff.. after further 'breaking' it..
Ah, well, that's why I said pull the gears and electricals out. There ya go. Airsoft rifles also have an inner barrel usually made of brass that has a hop-up chamber attached to it (read receiver and breech). Take that part out (it slides right out) and you have no means of firing any projectile. You could go a step further with it and replace the inner barrel with a 7mm solid rod for weight and fill the outer barrel.
Problem solved.
(http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/5BTpq5YuOajPvIer.standard)
Here...this is the inner barrel and hop up unit in an Airsoft M14. It slides right out when the rifle is disassembled. You've now taken away the ability completely for this rifle to accept and fire Plastic BB ammunition.
(http://www.airsoftretreat.com/gallery/data/974/22.jpg)
This is that rifle 'field stripped'. You can clearly see the 'guts' of this Airsoft rifle. See that black thing at the left side of the receiver mechanism with the wires hanging out? That's an electric motor that drives the gear box that fires the rifle. Take that motor off, you've completely disabled the rifle.
You want a Garand for the same price as that M14 without any fuss in de-miling it? Here ya go...
Cheap M1 Garand Parade Rifle (http://www.amazon.com/DrillAmerica%C2%AE-Garand-Rifle-Moving-Bolt/dp/B00ADNZPZO/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1400559244&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=Drillamerica+garand)
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on May 20, 2014, 04:15:49 AM
You want a Garand for the same price as that M14 without any fuss in de-miling it? Here ya go...
Cheap M1 Garand Parade Rifle (http://www.amazon.com/DrillAmerica%C2%AE-Garand-Rifle-Moving-Bolt/dp/B00ADNZPZO/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1400559244&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=Drillamerica+garand)
Order directly from the source: http://www.paradestore.com/index.php/our-products/replica-rifles.html (http://www.paradestore.com/index.php/our-products/replica-rifles.html)
Plus speaking from experience, Demil'ed M1's are perfectly usable by teens. I did exhibition drill in high school myself and our weapons were demil'ed M1s with concrete in them. About 8-12lbs and quite workable once you get the hang of them. We'd always laugh when at meets and we would ask to spin the lightweight rifles that the AFJROTC cadets had. (I was NJROTC)
Quote from: Brad on May 20, 2014, 08:13:12 AMI did exhibition drill in high school myself
Yes,
high school - big difference between a 12 year old and a 15-16 year old, and color guards
tend to be on the low-end of age and grade.
In >ALL< cases, the best bet is to go with the lightest, cheapest, most easy to replace option.
No one from more then 10 feet away is going to know or care what they look like as long as they semi-resemble
a weapon-ish looking thing. The ability to move the bolt, click the trigger, or do anything but put it on your
shoulder is wasted in CAP.
I can't tell you how many "we're starting a CG" conversations begin with the rifles and end with them being
unused in the corner of someone's closet because all effort was spent on affectation and none on learning to
carry the colors.
In my experience .. a 12 year old can do quite well with a de-milled 1903 :)
Six of one....half dozen of the other.
Use what works, use what looks good.
Personally.....my next color guard....I'm thinking de-milled Air Soft M-9 pistols. :)
And yes....there is a manual of arms for the M-9 :)
Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2014, 01:45:55 AM
^ CAP regs do not allow parade rifles to be capable of any shooting any projectile.
At minimum you'd need to remove the entirely of the firing mechanism.
Per 52-16:
2-11. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any devices that could be used as weapons at cadet activities. The only exceptions to this policy are:
a. Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
That doesn't really address the issue. By definition, Airsoft weapons are not firearms (as in, where's the "fire" part, ie the stuff that ignites?) and they shoot projectiles, not ammunition. (I hate it when they try to write a reg so tightly that it ends up loosened).
Quote from: a2capt on May 20, 2014, 02:29:30 PM
In my experience .. a 12 year old can do quite well with a de-milled 1903 :)
In my experience, "a" 12 year old might, but the "average" 12 year old is another story. The weight of a de-milled 03, especially if the barrel is plugged, could be 10% of their body weight. And that's on a body that usually is only starting to develop upper body strength.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 21, 2014, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2014, 01:45:55 AM
^ CAP regs do not allow parade rifles to be capable of any shooting any projectile.
At minimum you'd need to remove the entirely of the firing mechanism.
Per 52-16:
2-11. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any devices that could be used as weapons at cadet activities. The only exceptions to this policy are:
a. Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
That doesn't really address the issue. By definition, Airsoft weapons are not firearms (as in, where's the "fire" part, ie the stuff that ignites?) and they shoot projectiles, not ammunition. (I hate it when they try to write a reg so tightly that it ends up loosened).
I'm not a Wing DCP or higher....but in my interpretation of the reg.....I would say....can you put "ammo" into that thing and "shoot" it? Then it is not "deactivated" as is the intent of the regulation.
Take the inner barrel out, remove the motor and battery connections, you've de-miled it. Period. The end.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2014, 01:30:05 PMIn >ALL< cases, the best bet is to go with the lightest, cheapest, most easy to replace option.
http://www.paradestore.com/index.php/our-products/replica-rifles/replica-1903-springfield-parade-rifle.html (http://www.paradestore.com/index.php/our-products/replica-rifles/replica-1903-springfield-parade-rifle.html)
Nobody should have a problem with those. $40 per and 2.3 lbs. They're like styrofoam / balsa wood compared to others I've seen.
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on May 22, 2014, 12:09:48 AM
Take the inner barrel out, remove the motor and battery connections, you've de-miled it. Period. The end.
yep...sounds good to me. Heck....just removing the battery would suit me.
Except that someone could easily just shove in a battery and some "ammo" and be nefarious.
Quote from: a2capt on May 22, 2014, 04:18:39 AM
Except that someone could easily just shove in a battery and some "ammo" and be nefarious.
Okay.....same could be said for "de-milled" M-1....by 52-16
Quote2-11. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any devices that could be used as weapons at cadet activities. The only exceptions to this policy are:
a. Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
So...I de-mil an M-1 or M-1906 by removing the firing pin.....can't be fired.....but someone nefarious may bring their own.....at that point he gets a 2b.
So....M-14 airsoft gun with the batteries removed.....cannot be fired. so it is deactivated. Now you can go the extra mile and weld the firing pin well...or weld a block of metal into the breech....but the reg does not require it. It either cannot accept ammunition...i.e. a breech weld....or it cannot fire if loaded with ammunition...i.e. a removed/welded firing pin.
For an any other type of fire-arm like device....like bb-guns or airsoft guns....they either cannot "chamber ammo" or they cannot "fire" said ammo if loaded.
Bottom line.....you are not going to put your eye out (or anyone else's) with that thing.
(who can tell me the source of that paraphrase? :) )
Quote from: lordmonar on May 22, 2014, 04:44:53 AM
Bottom line.....you are not going to put your eye out (or anyone else's) with that thing.
(who can tell me the source of that paraphrase? :) )
(http://vividology.com/Ralphie_AR.jpg)
Ohhhhhhh.....me likey. :) :) :) :) :) 8)
Quote from: Brad on May 22, 2014, 03:41:46 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2014, 01:30:05 PMIn >ALL< cases, the best bet is to go with the lightest, cheapest, most easy to replace option.
http://www.paradestore.com/index.php/our-products/replica-rifles/replica-1903-springfield-parade-rifle.html (http://www.paradestore.com/index.php/our-products/replica-rifles/replica-1903-springfield-parade-rifle.html)
Nobody should have a problem with those. $40 per and 2.3 lbs. They're like styrofoam / balsa wood compared to others I've seen.
Absolute garbage. My squadron bought two of these a few months ago. Three or four practice sessions and one performance, and they are falling apart. The wood screws that hold the "action" to the stock have stripped the holes resulting in actions that are a sneeze away from falling out. Also, the "operating handles" have separated themselves from the back of the "bolts", dumping the handle, spring, and fake bullet out the back end of them.
And, of course, Glendale's has a no return policy on rifles, even if the workmanship is shoddy at best.
Granted, I've got fixes for them. A few minutes with a drill and some wood and self-tapping screws and I think I can get them fixed. But, for something that's been out of the box a total of five times, I shouldn't have to.
Too bad demilled Garands are beyond the budget. I'd love to lay hands on a couple M-16 rubber ducks without magazines in the wells.
collectors armory has replica M1 garands and carbines for around $235-250, full size and weight vs wood and metal air soft in the $400 range (m14) .....On the cheap, winchester makes a m14 styled CO2 rifle, less weight (4.4 lbs) plastic of course. $123 at the Walmart.
MK