AF MARS Program, Should CAP Become Executive Agent?

[RADIOMAN015]

One of the issues with the AF Miliary Affiliate Radio System is that it lacks AF staffing & even oversight.   I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to bring the program under the control of CAP?

I personally think it would be a win/wing situation for both organizations:
1.  MARS members could become a new category of CAP membership called "operational support" member, which only require them to take OPSEC and level 1.  They would not be required to wear a CAP uniform but would be encouraged to buy Blue BDU's and a golf shirt.
2.  CAP Facilties use on military bases -- CAP currently has many units on military bases.  This would give the MARS program a facility to jointly use for radio equipment operations.  A so called "club station" could be installed & MARS rules could be changed to allow CAP members to operate MARS stations.
3.  CAP would get the use of many more HF & VHF frequencies, to include digital message processing capabilities, that we presently don't have. 
4.  CAP would gain many more "operational" members with technical radio experience to assist the organization.
5.  During this time of budget cuts & review, this would further "bullet proof" the organization (CAP-USAF) from further cuts by showing they are doing more with less.

Comments?

RM   

[wuzafuzz]

I like the idea of merging CAP Comm and MARS. 

Some challenges and resistance would exist but it could be both beneficial and doable.

• Given the different levels of expertise required, perhaps only folks in the Communications Track would train to that level?  ICUT + MARSCUT?     Although MARS and ham are different services, I suspect AF will still want people trained as hams.  Opening to ROA folks probably wouldn't happen.
• Integrate our regulations with MARS regs to permit said operation.  Our current regs, not to mention leadership mindset, may be undesirable to MARS.
• I've seen some outright hard feelings toward hams from some folks in CAP Comm.  Effective leadership could mute that.
• Getting CAP on digital modes would be awesome!

[RiverAux]

I suspect that there is some obscure office in the AF that handles MARS issues so I doubt the program is totally orphaned.  But, I think there might be some advantages to the AF in having CAP be the lead in that members would have to go through the fingerprint and background check process.  I would hope that they they would want this of someone passing military traffic.

I suspect that there could be some situations where CAP could pass AF traffic using our system as well.   

[ZigZag911]

An interesting concept, efficient & practical...however, isn't CAP prohibited from using any amateur frequencies?

[heliodoc]

^^ Yeah what he said

Wouldn't that create another ICL?

As long as CAP does NOT write the regs for it and if monitored by the AF and they see CAP showing  hard feelings towards the ham radio operators.....  CAP, what ever Wing or unit working in conjunction gets a permanent 2B from operating in the facility

CAP ought best start playing nice with the ham radio operators.....i have seen PLENTY good ones out there in real DR and some faaaar better commo types than CAP Comms types!

Its AF and Govt facilities not CAP's....there would be the rub for CAP

[RRLE]

MARS is a government program. CAP is a private membership organization. I think you would find that the Infamous CAP "2B or Not 2B" membership 'retention' issues would not fly or work with MARS.

[Spike]

I was under the impression that MARS is an Army activity with Army oversight?? 

[RADIOMAN015]

An interesting concept, efficient & practical...however, isn't CAP prohibited from using any amateur frequencies?

All MARS programs use military allocated frequencies in basically the same VHF & HF frequency ranges that Civil Air Patrol operates in.
The only difference is that the MARS program requires that in order to obtain membership one has to be an amateur radio operator licensed by the FCC.   
If you'd like to get an idea of radio traffic passed by MARS programs look at:
www.qth.net  and picked the "milcom" archieves.
also
http://mt-milcom.blogspot.com/  and look for log postings.
RM

[RiverAux]

I was under the impression that MARS is an Army activity with Army oversight??

Apparently there is an AF version as well as a Navy/CG/Marines version. 

[BTCS1*]

Think it would be best to leave MARS as a ham thing. Unless it was a CAP member who's a ham operating through some sort of joint program.

[Fubar]

I was under the impression that MARS is an Army activity with Army oversight??

Apparently there is an AF version as well as a Navy/CG/Marines version.

MARS is described as a auxiliary of the military. Does that mean the AF portion is an auxiliary of the AF? If so, there shouldn't be any reason why two auxiliaries of the same organization couldn't work together.

[lordmonar]

One of the issues with the AF Miliary Affiliate Radio System is that it lacks AF staffing & even oversight.   I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to bring the program under the control of CAP?

I personally think it would be a win/wing situation for both organizations:
1.  MARS members could become a new category of CAP membership called "operational support" member, which only require them to take OPSEC and level 1.  They would not be required to wear a CAP uniform but would be encouraged to buy Blue BDU's and a golf shirt.
2.  CAP Facilties use on military bases -- CAP currently has many units on military bases.  This would give the MARS program a facility to jointly use for radio equipment operations.  A so called "club station" could be installed & MARS rules could be changed to allow CAP members to operate MARS stations.
3.  CAP would get the use of many more HF & VHF frequencies, to include digital message processing capabilities, that we presently don't have. 
4.  CAP would gain many more "operational" members with technical radio experience to assist the organization.
5.  During this time of budget cuts & review, this would further "bullet proof" the organization (CAP-USAF) from further cuts by showing they are doing more with less.

Comments?

RM   

Is this is a CAP push, an AF push or a MARS push?

If MARS or the AF does not want it....I don't see it happening.

Second...MARS is a DOD level activity (all four services) so there will be the issue of will all MARS stations be under CAP or just AF MARS stations?

Third....even if CAP got the AF side of MARS...we will still not get more frequencies. 

Fourth....do we even need more frequencies....AFIK we don't even use all the freqs we are currently given.

Finally.....I currently have a problem with the Amateur Radio Enthusiast's choke hold on CAP Comm program as it is.  Bringing in more IMHO would make CAP Comm less useful.

[RiverAux]

I think he was just suggesting it.  No one has claimed that anyone in particular is pushing for this idea.  Obviously, there would be a lot of issues to work out if there was any interest in this.

I feel pretty confident that those presently involved in MARS probably wouldn't want it.  After all, it would pose some additional burdens on them and I don't see a lot of advantage to them as individuals for this to be done under CAP's umbrella. 

That doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't worth doing, just that we can guarantee losing some percentage of those involved in MARS now.  On the other hand, being linked in with a nationwide organization like CAP does open up the potential for more people to get involved. 

[wuzafuzz]

Finally.....I currently have a problem with the Amateur Radio Enthusiast's choke hold on CAP Comm program as it is.  Bringing in more IMHO would make CAP Comm less useful.

Why do you have a problem with ham radio operators?  What is this choke hold you claim we have on CAP Comm?  Why do you think ham make CAP Comm less useful?

Arguably CAP Comm was more useful before we starting dumbing it down.

[lordmonar]

Finally.....I currently have a problem with the Amateur Radio Enthusiast's choke hold on CAP Comm program as it is.  Bringing in more IMHO would make CAP Comm less useful.

Why do you have a problem with ham radio operators?  What is this choke hold you claim we have on CAP Comm?  Why do you think ham make CAP Comm less useful?

Arguably CAP Comm was more useful before we starting dumbing it down.

Not to derail the current thread.

In my experience the current leaders of CAP Comm all tend to be old school Ham's...I got no real problem with that ....but they are very exclusive group.  If you don't have an Extra License and can do code at 20 WPM and do antenna calculations in your head...they don't have time for you.

As for the choke hold.....Getting someone authorised to do a BCUT is next to impossible.  Getting a BCUT class held takes 2-3 months of coordination.   The BCUT class itself is so out of date and contains so much useless information to be an almost complete waste of time.

I got no problem with HAMS...I'm working on my Tech rating right now.  But HAMS think you got to be HAM to talk on the radio....and that is just not true.  It should take about 15 minutes of briefing and 30 minute OJT to get your BCUT done.  I can't wait for the on line training to come!

[/rant]

[NIN]

I haven't seen that where I've been, Pat.  Matter of fact, I've seen too many guys who couldn't get that CAP Communications != Amateur Radio and they fail miserably.  Alternatively, I've seen commercial radio jockeys who aren't interested in good radio procedure because "in the real world" nobody does it that way. They can setup a repeater like a madman, program radios like nobody's business, but they might as well be coordinating a plumbing job via the radio by the way they use it.

73s, K1NIN

[wuzafuzz]

Not to derail the current thread.

In my experience the current leaders of CAP Comm all tend to be old school Ham's...I got no real problem with that ....but they are very exclusive group.  If you don't have an Extra License and can do code at 20 WPM and do antenna calculations in your head...they don't have time for you.

As for the choke hold.....Getting someone authorised to do a BCUT is next to impossible.  Getting a BCUT class held takes 2-3 months of coordination.   The BCUT class itself is so out of date and contains so much useless information to be an almost complete waste of time.

I got no problem with HAMS...I'm working on my Tech rating right now.  But HAMS think you got to be HAM to talk on the radio....and that is just not true.  It should take about 15 minutes of briefing and 30 minute OJT to get your BCUT done.  I can't wait for the on line training to come!

[/rant]

Sounds like a Your Mileage May Vary situation.  Things in my wing are quite different than what you describe and our hams don't practice any sort of elitism.  If anything we have trouble finding enough people to work in Comm.  Once I became a CUL my services are in such demand that it's hard to do anything else.  Other CUL's were glad to pass the torch so they could finally fly or do other things.  Finding more MRO's and CUL's would be fantastic, even if they hail from MARS.

(I will strongly disagree on one point though; a proper radio class SHOULD take more than 15 or even 45 minutes.  Radio operators do need to understand more than how to power up, twist the channel selector, and push to talk.)

I would personally welcome MARS into the CAP fold, or vice versa.  More capability, more missions, more operators.  For some time the idea of building a relationship, if only locally, with a MARS organization has been on my to-do list.  One of these days.

[Brad]

Now there's something to consider...

And as for this thing about the Hams having a chokehold on Comms and whatnot....again, probably depends on where you are and what level you're at.

Myself, I have no Ham experience, and yet I'm a newly minted Group DC and a Wing DCA for Training, after having served as a Group DCA. Came into comms not through ham but through public safety as a dispatcher. Antenna theory confuses the mess out of me, but I'm gonna have to learn it sooner or later for my Senior and Master tests.

Regardless I can still work (and program) a VHF and HF radio, as well as an 800 MHz plus do the job I've been tasked to including CAPR 100-1 and 100-3, plus ORMS (which btw is A LOT better than CEMS in my opinion)

Still doesn't hurt to have a good Ham as a friend though if ya need some aerial help.