Why the emphasis on GSAR

[flyguy06]

Ok, let me start off by saying I don't post these questions to start arguments or to criticize. I honestly do not know the answer and would like your thoughts. I am just really getting into ES and don't have all the answers.

But from Reading this board, there seems to be a big emphasis on Ground teams and GSAR. we are the Civil "AIR" Patrol right?I thought our main ES mission was "AIR" Search and rescue with a little Ground team mixed in. But the main effort was air SAR.

Is it because thee are more non pilot ground team types that visit this board than aircrew types? Again, I am just curious. It seems like there are members that would be content if we just got rid of all the aircraft and were strictly a GSAR organization. but when I talk about CAP to non members when they hear the name, the first thing they think of is flying , not ground team.  When I talked to the Atlanta Fire Chief about CAP last year, he thought about the aircrews supporting his dept notthe ground units.

Hey I love the GT's I want to be a GTL one day. I am just curious why the emphasis on it? That's all. Thank you in advance

[SarDragon]

I think they should have equal emphasis. For a complete SAR effort, both are needed. The aircrew does the initial search, and the ground/UDF teams follow up as needed.

AFRCC search mission 10-M-0046 opened 18 January and closed 19 January 2010 for a missing Cessna 172, N13073, on a training flight from Williams Airport in Yucca Valley to Palm Springs, two people on board.

Aircraft and two survivors located by CAP aircrew and ground teams along with Joshua Tree National Park rangers.  Aircraft was located approx. 22 miles northeast of the Palm Springs Airport in Joshua Tree National Park.  Aircraft was found upside down with the two occupants trapped inside.  The survivors were suffering from multiple trauma fractures and hypothermia when the ground teams arrived on scene.  The two survivors were extricated with the assistance of Riverside County Sheriff and Fire and transported by medi-vac helicopter to a hospital in Palm Springs.

Two SAVE awards authorized for California Wing by AFRCC.  Distress finds will be awarded by the CAWG/DO.

Neither element was more important than the other.

I think discussion goes in cycles on here, and the current cycle is leaning more towards ground ops. I'm sure it will lean the other direction sometime down the road.

[MikeD]

I think discussion goes in cycles on here, and the current cycle is leaning more towards ground ops. I'm sure it will lean the other direction sometime down the road.

It seems safe to say that there are more people unhappy with where GSAR is currently, so you'll see more topics about GSAR now. 

My $0.35 worth (adjusted for inflation) is that an ESO, and anyone else interested in and serious about ES should have exposure and experience as aircrew, ground team, and mission base staff.  I'm pretty new and inexperienced, but that seems to be the right approach, get good at some things but know something about everything.

[RiverAux]

I am not saying that our emphasis should shift entirely over to ground SAR, just that it is a capability that we have that is being woefully underutilized because right now it has NO emphasis within the organization. 

Besides our air SAR capability is being utilized less due to ELT missions dropping dramatically and a long term decline in the need for missing airplane searches.  And in the long run, we are not going to be needed for post disaster reconnaissance.  The reading is on the wall that  we will be superceded by assets with more capability than us.

So, to sum up -- it is the only area where we have the potential to get more missions while every other thing we do in terms of ES is on the decline.

Perhaps homeland security missions will be enough to keep our planes in the air, but most wings don't seem to be picking up a lot of them. 

By the way fly, I've been involved in air ops a lot longer and have done a lot more air sorties than I have ground team missions. 

[Stonewall]

Cadets.  Cadets enjoy GSAR because they can do GSAR.  While cadets can enjoy orientation flights or solo before they're 18, they cannot fly as mission aircrew until they're 18.  So as a cadet who is interested in Emergency Services, which many seem to be, where else do you go but GSAR.

With the exception of the hard corps drill team and color guard focused squadrons out there, almost every composite squadron I've seen has had at least 1/3 of their focus on ground team related training.  Not all squadrons have pilots or aircraft available, or even pilots.  But almost any human with 2 legs can conduct GSAR operations.

People like to be involved but they don't like to wait.  It's a lot easier to get involved with GSAR than it is AIRSAR.   Plus, you can practically become GTM3 in under a month, but to be a Scanner or Observer takes months of time, studying, training and availability of instructors and aircraft. 

There's only 1 airplane with 3 seats available, but as long as you have vehicles you can put out tons of ground teams. 

[isuhawkeye]

My $.02 CAP has a well supported organized, trained and efficient air program.  There are few nationwide competitors, and in General CAP is well respected for this resource. 

CAP's Ground teams on the other hand have lots of competition on the local and national levels.  There are lots of certifications, training standards, and opinions running through the industry.  With all these variables there is a lot to talk about.  Many through out CAP feel that if CAP's ground teams are to be taken seriously they need to adapt to some of the national standards. 

Like I said, lots to talk about

[Al Sayre]

GSAR is an essential part of our mission.  As an IC, here is my $0.02:

All aircrew need to be qualified at least to the UDF level and also MSA qualified.  Before you start flaming, here is why:

Airplanes usually don't just fall out of the sky in clear weather.  A large number of accidents occur due to pilots flying unprepared into IMC.  When the first call comes in, it's pretty likely that the weather isn't much better, and we need ceilings of at least 1500' AGL to do an air search.  That means our aircraft may be sitting on the ground waiting for the weather to clear for 1-2 days or more.

A non-UDF, non-MSA pilot/aircrew sitting at an airport or mission base that can't launch due to weather is worse than useless to me in that situation. 

However, an aircrew member that is also UDF qualified can be paired up with another UDF member and sent out in a CAP or Personal vehicle to knock on doors, visit business, churches etc. and conduct interviews and get me some valuable intelligence until I can launch an air search. 

Who better to help filter intelligence about aircraft in the planning section than MSA qualified pilots?

So all the folks that "only want to fly" need to think about that, and then see your local ESO to get UDF & MSA qualified so you can be a useful asset when the next call comes.

[heliodoc]

Being a pilot and a former "Senior and Cadet Land Rescue Team Commander" BITD circa 1974 - 1981

Stonewall and isuhawkeye say it succinctly....

Cadets love and eat this stuff up...I know I did...what with a squadron back in the day with only a Dodge M37 Power Wagon and an M43 ambulance and no airplane.... how do you hang a Lycoming O540 on those things and call it an airplane let alone an aircrew??

This stuff isn't hard and can be done in a month...and for all those folks thinking that's pencil whipping...think again

Dedication and the ability instruct (even with mistakes with either instructor or student in a training situation) make the learning fun and folks even learn to themselves less seriously.  I know that's a novel idea in CAP but CAP Seniors has a tendency to go overboard on lots of things without really thinkin things through and thinkin the whole SQTR system is a pencil whip factory.  Some cadets really don't care about the paper work  (that 's the Seniors job(s))  they want to get out and DO!

Only CAP could could make a 2 year project out of the entire GTM 1-3 series and GTL

Easier to get ground training done while winter has got most of pilots on reduced training schedules due to the facts of Winter Operations and many Wing supplements to the flying program that make a ground team look pretty active in any sense

[capes]

From the perspective of alot of folks I know, the "Air" component gets too much emphasis.  I know it does in my Wing.

[flyguy06]

Cadets.  Cadets enjoy GSAR because they can do GSAR.  While cadets can enjoy orientation flights or solo before they're 18, they cannot fly as mission aircrew until they're 18.  So as a cadet who is interested in Emergency Services, which many seem to be, where else do you go but GSAR.

With the exception of the hard corps drill team and color guard focused squadrons out there, almost every composite squadron I've seen has had at least 1/3 of their focus on ground team related training.  Not all squadrons have pilots or aircraft available, or even pilots.  But almost any human with 2 legs can conduct GSAR operations.

People like to be involved but they don't like to wait.  It's a lot easier to get involved with GSAR than it is AIRSAR.   Plus, you can practically become GTM3 in under a month, but to be a Scanner or Observer takes months of time, studying, training and availability of instructors and aircraft. 

There's only 1 airplane with 3 seats available, but as long as you have vehicles you can put out tons of ground teams.

But that's my point. Why does it even have to revolve around ES? In my area. when we get new members, both cadets and seniors., they became interested in CAP for the flying. Not flying missions, just the flying period. cadets that join in my area want to be future airline or military pilots so they want to learn to fly. Adults that join want to fly at a cheap rate ( and no I don't condone this attitude. I tell them they have to contribute to the unit)

I have never gotten a new member that joins because they soley want to do ground team stuff. maybe its the demographics of where i am. Most of our seniors are over 50 years old and you aren't going to get them out in the woods. Most of my cadets are from urban areas and if you suggested they go to the woods, they will look at you like you are crazy.

[Eclipse]

^ We don't "fly just to fly".

There are only two reasons for an adult to be in CAP, working with cadets or ES.  That's all we do, everything else is a derivative of that.

An adult joining "just to fly" is part of the problem and does not understand why CAP exists.

There's also a lot more to CAP ES than "walking into the woods".

[Flying Pig]

If  you want to join CAP and fly, we can DEFINITELY help you.  If you want to join CAP and do Comm, Yeah, we can help you.  Work with youth, we can surely help you.  If you want to join CAP and actually do SEARCH AND RESCUE as a ground team member, join your local Sheriff's SAR or join the Forest Service.  UDF, Land Nav, survival skills have a great place in the cadet program as Stonewall said.  But expecting CAP to become a viable SAR organization that can come on line with other units?  We cant do it.  Our regs prohibit it.  Look at Riverside County Sheriffs Mountain Rescue Team, Fresno County Sheriff's SAR (which I might add is one of the top LE SAR units in the country) then come back and tell me that you see CAP doing what they do.  I dont think we need to abandon GT by any means.  And if there are ways we can improve, lets do it.  But we are seriously limited.

[heliodoc]

Good points, Rob

CAP can at least launch some cadets careers towards the organization you mention

CAP can just provide a background and some practical work.  Not practical enough though.  Especially in the last 30 to 40 years that CAP has been touting our services.  I m sure with our dysfunctional background with WANTING to do First Responder"stuff" things will never pan that way and especially with our risk averse nature as a "SAR agency" as some like to call us...mostly CAPers.

So CAP is a launching ground for cadets and younger seniors to go out to real EMS and EM stuff.  Its got some good GT stuff to bring into a Sheriffs Dept later in life.  But CAPer has GOT to realize, one will be trained to Agency standards NOT CAP standards......get ready for that!!

[RiverAux]

People seem to think that unless you can freeclimb a cliff that you can't do GSAR.  Its not that hard most of the time folks.  From what I can tell in my state, which does have some areas where technical work would be required, about 95% of searches involve walking through the woods.  I think we can handle that. 

Keep in mind that local SAR capabilities vary tremendously by state.  Not every county in the nation has their own GSAR team.  In my state fewer than 10% of counties have a GSAR team. 

People also keep forgetting that THERE IS NO NATIONAL STANDARD.   There is a non-governmental organization that has come up with their own standards.  Sound familiar? 

Jeesh, AIR SAR is a lot more complex and we handle it just fine.  I just don't get why people think you have to be a super skilled Army special forces type to organize a line search and recognize clues....

[Eclipse]

Jeesh, AIR SAR is a lot more complex and we handle it just fine.  I just don't get why people think you have to be a super skilled Army special forces type to organize a line search and recognize clues....

Mark the date, because I'm right with you on this.  We hear from the HMRS folks that they teach rope work because it is necessary for the area they respond, except that we aren't allowed to do that anyway, so its really a non-starter.

What most agencies we support actually need as trained semi-professionals who can act maturely in a crisis and help where needed.
We do that pretty well, and in many areas are the lead agencies when we are called because we're still the best trained, most experienced in the room, for all that statement says.

Sure, places out West where the terrain is more challenging need enhancements to the training if we're going to help, fine, add the supplements and move on.  Mountain flying, technical rescue, and desert training aren't much use in the Midwest.

Anyone who thinks we are "useless" should call those people we just found hanging in the straps at Joshua and ask them how they feel.

[flyguy06]

If  you want to join CAP and fly, we can DEFINITELY help you.  If you want to join CAP and do Comm, Yeah, we can help you.  Work with youth, we can surely help you.  If you want to join CAP and actually do SEARCH AND RESCUE as a ground team member, join your local Sheriff's SAR or join the Forest Service.  UDF, Land Nav, survival skills have a great place in the cadet program as Stonewall said.  But expecting CAP to become a viable SAR organization that can come on line with other units?  We cant do it.  Our regs prohibit it.  Look at Riverside County Sheriffs Mountain Rescue Team, Fresno County Sheriff's SAR (which I might add is one of the top LE SAR units in the country) then come back and tell me that you see CAP doing what they do.  I dont think we need to abandon GT by any means.  And if there are ways we can improve, lets do it.  But we are seriously limited.

Good points. I agree. 

@Eclipse. The comment "We dont fly just to fly" Wel, i guess it depends on where you are. I know people that do join just to fly and stay current. Do i agree with that? No but I have seen it.

[Larry Mangum]

Flyguy,

There are a lot more non-pilot types in CAP then there are pilots.  I came from a wing that ahd around 1500 members yet the pilot population within CAP was never more then a 100 Form 5 Pilot's in the 9 years I spent in that wing.  So that is why GSAR and Comm get so much attention, and like someoen else saif you really need both to have a good ES program. Will CAP ever do high angle rescue or swift water, very doubtful, but I have seen lots of GSAR personnel deployed for limited access control and to distibute food and water to victims.

[RADIOMAN015]

Jeesh, AIR SAR is a lot more complex and we handle it just fine.  I just don't get why people think you have to be a super skilled Army special forces type to organize a line search and recognize clues....

Anyone who thinks we are "useless" should call those people we just found hanging in the straps at Joshua and ask them how they feel.

By news report cross referenced from the CAP website. Well surely the CAP aircraft did isolate the signal.  Ground team was 1 senior member with DF gear and he had a park ranger with him.   HOWEVER, the actual rescue was conducted by others who had the proper tools to remove the occupants safely from the aircraft.  CAP does no training in the use of any forcible entry tools.  Also it's almost comical during exercises to see CAP ground teams rescuing anyone from a simulated aircraft crash....  Yes we can "search", but the "rescue" side of this needs supplementation by those with proper tools and advance medical skills.  To deploy into an area with a high probability of a find without supplementation by others with the proper skill sets & equipment would be terrible and could result in the death of the "find" due to CAP lack of appropriate skills/equipment and coordination efforts.   
We really need to train more in a joint agencies type environment.  Especially with local fulltime & volunteer fire departments that likely are going to be the units assisting us the greatest, along with local EMS.
RM

[Flying Pig]

Interesting?  One CAP member and a Ranger? CAWG could only get 1 CAP member to respond as a GT?

Riverside County Sheriff's Air Unit responded.  The articles also said Cal-Fire was on scene.  Ill call down to RSO this week and talk to the crew.  I went to the academy with a couple of their pilots.

[Eclipse]

Flyguy,

There are a lot more non-pilot types in CAP then there are pilots.  I came from a wing that ahd around 1500 members yet the pilot population within CAP was never more then a 100 Form 5 Pilot's in the 9 years I spent in that wing. 

We have lots of "pilots" and few "Pilots".