Rumor Control - Corporate Vehicles

[RiverAux]

And since for a variety of reasons (discussed in other threads) CAP is not likely to ever have any Type 1 teams, then we don't need to worry about this specific requirement. 

[cap235629]

touche

but in this part of the country, they really are a necessity

[321EOD]

  We do however have it outfitted very well i.e comms and a soon to be installed mobile DF unit.

Can I ask what 'mobile df unit' you are looking at? - Thanks!

[cap235629]

  We do however have it outfitted very well i.e comms and a soon to be installed mobile DF unit.

Can I ask what 'mobile df unit' you are looking at? - Thanks!

It is actually and old school L-Per.  We also just got a grant and purchased a new mini L-Per with all of the accessories

[N Harmon]

http://www.quigley4x4.com

Quigley Motor Company, located in Manchester PA, is the oldest, largest and most successful manufacturer of high quality four-wheel-drive conversions for full sized vans and "cut-aways" in the world. It has sold over 15,000 of its unique four-wheel drive systems for vans. Quigley also manufactures and installs right-hand drive conversion systems for full size vans.

Quigley Motor Company is an approved up-fitter for General Motors and is also a fully approved Ford Motor Company ship-thru account and benefits from access to the Ford, and General Motors shipping and distribution network. In fact, the Quigley "Quadra-Version" system can be ordered through any authorized Chevrolet, GMC or Ford dealer in the United States.

I think this is worth looking into for CAP ground transportation folks. The thing is, 4wd systems do require more maintenance so a host squadron would have to be willing to take on the extra costs. I'm not sure mine would.

[badger bob]

Last  year, NHQ put together a National Logisitcs Advisory Team to make some recommendations on the upcoming revisons to logistics regulations.

One of the teams struggles was to make a recommendation on vehicle purchases and vehicle distribution ( the table of allowances).

Currently, CAP has about 800 mission capable vehicles and another 100 vehicles that are generally special purpose vehicles- from some jeeps in Alaska that are used to move float planes from hangers to their takeoff points to communications vehicles and even a couple forklifs.

Current vehicle replacement funding authorizes appropriations for 30-35 vehicle replacements a year- giving a 30 year replacement cycle for the current fleet. It is unacceptable to depend on 30 year old vehicles or 200,000 mile vehicles to transport cadets and respond to emergency requests 24/7/365.

The Air Force Appopriated funds are to support the three missions of CAP, Emergency Services, Cadet Programs and Aerospace Education. What is the correct mix of and distribution of vehicles? Can we use the same formula for Alaska that is used for Texas and that is used for Conneticut? How many vehicles are needed in a wing?


Why does CAP have so many hanger queens? One wing took over 12 months to put a new 15 PAX van into service. Was that because 15 pax vans arent the most useful vehicle in the Rockies or was it a wing problem. Nearly 100 CAP vehicles do not show enough use to justify their current assignment. Are wings making use of the vehicle maintenace funds that are availalbe or is it simpler to sit back and [censored] about the way things are?

The good news is that NHQ recognizes that current funding for vehicles is inadaquete. A proposal was made to and approved by the December BOG to lobby for a increase in funding from 31 vehicles a year to 92 vehciles per year.

There is not yet a consensus on what vehicle to buy and how to distribute them.

The current vehicle purchase included 12/15 PAX vans, minivans, SUV's and crew cab 4x4 pickups. Your wing and region should have input on what type of vehicles they are requesting.

[RADIOMAN015]

Last  year, NHQ put together a National Logisitcs Advisory Team to make some recommendations on the upcoming revisons to logistics regulations.

One of the teams struggles was to make a recommendation on vehicle purchases and vehicle distribution ( the table of allowances).

Nearly 100 CAP vehicles do not show enough use to justify their current assignment.

There is not yet a consensus on what vehicle to buy and how to distribute them.

The current vehicle purchase included 12/15 PAX vans, minivans, SUV's and crew cab 4x4 pickups. Your wing and region should have input on what type of vehicles they are requesting.

In your opinion what is considered "adequate" usage of a CAP general purpose vehicle (e.g. van) on a yearly basis?  Isn't reporting by number of hours utilized (rather than milege) in the different major support categories?

Also I have to wonder whether CAP approach to volunteer drivers' personal/property liability may result in a shortage of CAP drivers.  (There's nothing in the current regulation that doesn't say they will not seek reimbursement from your personal insurance company, regardless of the accident circumstances).     So you may have the assets but not necessarily the drivers    
RM

[badger bob]

In your opinion what is considered "adequate" usage of a CAP general purpose vehicle (e.g. van) on a yearly basis?  Isn't reporting by number of hours utilized (rather than milege) in the different major support categories?

Also I have to wonder whether CAP approach to volunteer drivers' personal/property liability may result in a shortage of CAP drivers.  (There's nothing in the current regulation that doesn't say they will not seek reimbursement from your personal insurance company, regardless of the accident circumstances).     So you may have the assets but not necessarily the drivers

My opinion is that the current vehicle table of allowances includes a minimum requriement of either miles driven per year, hours in operation per year, or times driven per year.


From CAPR 77-1

UTILIZATION CRITERIA TO JUSTIFY RETENTION OF VEHICLES
Utilization is calculated as an average monthly utilization over the course of a calendar year.
VEHICLE TYPE              TIMES HOURS MILEAGE
7 PASSENGER VAN        6 or 50 or 475
12/15 PASSENGER VAN 4 or 35 or 350
4X4 VEHICLE                6 or 35 or 450
PICKUP TRUCK              4 or 15 or 200
COMM, CARGO VAN       1 or 15 or 130
SEDAN                          4 or 15 or 400

I am not sure that the current categories reflect current vehicles availabe like a 4 door 6 passenger 4x4 pickup, but the annual mileage ranges from 4200 miles for a 12/15 PAX van to 5700 miles for a minivan.

I would suggest a general use category including all passenger type vehicles with a minimum annual useage of 4,000 miles per year and a special usage category with a annual mileage of 2000 miles per year. You need also need a times or hours criteria, because it should be easier for Texa to drive 4,000 miles per year then Rhode Island.

Sorry, but I think the insurance thing is a copout. What we need is for every senior member involved with cadet programs and ES programs to have a CAP drivers license- even if they are in a unit that is not assigned a vehicle. CAP uses appropriated funding for vehicles, aircraft and other property. As CAP members we must understand that we have a obligation to the US taxpayers to take care of the property entrusted to our care.

[BillB]

The 4000 mile minimum is unrealistic as you say comparing Texas to Rhode Island. But more important, what is the useage of the vehicle. Is it used to transport cadets in a cadet Squadron? Used for ES ground teams? How close is the nearest Corporate vehilcle to the Squadron with a vehicle?
CAPR 77-1 criteria for vehicle useage is  a fair list. Some Squadrons will put on 4000 miles transporting cadets to activities. Another Squadron might put on 1000 miles, all of which was for SAR and ES activity. Both meet the mission neds of CAP regardless of mileage. So how can you make any valid decision on vehicle useage using a blanket nationwide criteria?

[badger bob]

So how can you make any valid decision on vehicle useage using a blanket nationwide criteria?

Ultimately, we need to justify our needs to Congress at a time of budget shortfalls. How would you justify increasing appropriations? How many vehicles does your wing need to carry out its missions?

You need to have some formula if you are also going to hold wings accountible for their useage the same way that ops decided that a 200 hour minimum is an appropriate use it or lose it for aircraft.

[RADIOMAN015]

So how can you make any valid decision on vehicle useage using a blanket nationwide criteria?

Ultimately, we need to justify our needs to Congress at a time of budget shortfalls. How would you justify increasing appropriations? How many vehicles does your wing need to carry out its missions?

You need to have some formula if you are also going to hold wings accountible for their useage the same way that ops decided that a 200 hour minimum is an appropriate use it or lose it for aircraft.

I guess the question is do we get rid of our communities fire trucks if there's few fires each year?  Maybe the same approach should be taken by CAP.  Should we ensure that we have the appropriate ES response support capability (CAP vehicles), even if we don't get a lot of missions, but also can use that same vehicle for supporting the cadet & aerospace programs?

It seems to me that the CAP vehicle Table of Allowance is pretty liberal when applying how vehicles are justified.

The economy is in the dumper right now & gas prices are going up.  Units for the most part have to self fund much of their CAP vehicle usage (gas, oil, tolls).  Lets not be too quick to remove vehicles

RM
 

[Eeyore]

Should we ensure that we have the appropriate ES response support capability (CAP vehicles), even if we don't get a lot of missions, but also can use that same vehicle for supporting the cadet & aerospace programs?

We use our van far more for cadet activities than we do for mission support.

This year we have had no time used for mission support but have had 366 hours for cadet activities time.

Last year we only had 14 hours of mission support time versus 423 hours of cadet activities.

[arajca]

Vans are generally not appropriate for ES, particularly ground team work in CO. Yes, we make do, but there are areas we just can't get close to.

Our wing commander put out for units with vehicles to use them. If you're the vehicle custodian and need to run to the store for supplies for CAP, take the van. If you're going to a PD class, take the van. Etc, etc, etc. When you wash it, log the trip - that's one use for the month.

The usage requirements provided in 77-1 are not hard to meet. You only need to meet ONE of the three, not all. (full disclosure - the vehicle I am custodian of regularly blows all the minimums away. It's used by the unit as well as wing comms)

[davidsinn]

If you're the vehicle custodian and need to run to the store for supplies for CAP, take the van. If you're going to a PD class, take the van. Etc, etc, etc. When you wash it, log the trip - that's one use for the month.

This is why I never want a van in my unit. I wouldn't use a vehicle that get's maybe 60% of the mileage that my own does. I just can't afford to feed the thing.

[PHall]

If you're the vehicle custodian and need to run to the store for supplies for CAP, take the van. If you're going to a PD class, take the van. Etc, etc, etc. When you wash it, log the trip - that's one use for the month.

This is why I never want a van in my unit. I wouldn't use a vehicle that get's maybe 60% of the mileage that my own does. I just can't afford to feed the thing.

Plus it's just another thing to get dinged on during Inspections.

[Eclipse]

If you're the vehicle custodian and need to run to the store for supplies for CAP, take the van. If you're going to a PD class, take the van. Etc, etc, etc. When you wash it, log the trip - that's one use for the month.

This is why I never want a van in my unit. I wouldn't use a vehicle that get's maybe 60% of the mileage that my own does. I just can't afford to feed the thing.

What do mean by "feed"?

All maintenance is paid for by the USAF, and lately that's included oil changes if properly submitted.

You only pay for the fuel you use, and if you're hauling a group, they should all kick in.

I'll grant you that its an additional page on the inspections, but its not that big a deal and having that
mini-bus can sure be handy when you need it.

[badger bob]

The industry estimated cost per mile for driving a vehicle includes not just fuel and oil changes- but also the cost of insurance, deprication and routine maintanance like tires and batteries. The Industry figures your total cost of driving to be about $0.60 per mile.

A 15pax right now is about $0.16 per mile at 15 mpg. Even if your personal vehicle gets 30 mpg, you are donating an additional $0.50 per mile to cover your personal vehicles depreciation, maintainance and insurance. Before you take 6 cadets across country in your personal vehicle on a 500 mile trip, ask your insurance man if he thinks saving $40 in gas merits using your personal vehicle and your personal insurance.

We are also trying to give Corporate Vehicles CAP Radio capability. That means that while you are driving cadets around, going to an encampment, or driving to a training exercise- you are still driving a CAP Emergency Response Vehicle

[RiverAux]

We should let the CAP van sit somewhere and drive CAP members in a personal vehicle to CAP events just in case the van is needed for emergency use?  If that is the strategy, we should start using member-owned aircraft for o-rides, proficiency flying, etc. and only use corporate for real missions. 

[SarDragon]

Love you, no stuff, GI! You buy me gas?

Your cost figures seem a bit low. I doubt that many 15 pax vans get 15 mpg. I track my 'Burb closely, and even on trips at 65 mph it only gets 13.5 mpg. In addition, your gas price seems a bit lower than mine. My last fill-up was at $2.79/gal.

Crunching the numbers with my gas price gives us 18.6 cents/mi at 15 mpg, and 20.6 cents/mi at 13.5 mpg.

I do agree, regardless of cost, that using the corporate vehicle whenever possible is the better way to go.

[LtCol Hooligan]

Your cost figures seem a bit low. I doubt that many 15 pax vans get 15 mpg. I track my 'Burb closely, and even on trips at 65 mph it only gets 13.5 mpg.

I have driven 3 different vans over the course of the last few years and they get exactly the same miles:

12 pax Chevy Express (2003)- 17
12 pax Ford (2006)- 17
15 pax Ford (2008)- 17

This was driving 75 miles per hour on the ND freeways- so no stopping, slowing, etc- just the wind beneath our wings.  We litterally stopped at a gas station and filled all 3 up together and they were within 10 cents of each other when the pumps stopped.