First Aid/CPR Certification Requirement for ES (specific)

[Spaceman3750]

Except when the standards change, then you have to pay to redevelop the curriculum. Outside organizations have entire business units (and sometimes that's all the entire company does, like with ECSI) dedicated to developing and updating good, solid curriculum and train the trainer programs. CAP doesn't have such a stellar track record of that (see: ICUT, most of the AFAIDL courses, etc).

AFAIDL is run by the AF, not CAP.

The courses are administered by the AF, but our courses are developed by CAP, right? How is the AF supposed to create materials about the inner-workings of CAP programs?

I could name others as well - the ES officer course, the Comm tests, etc.

[Eclipse]

AFAIDL is run by the AF, not CAP.

Yes, AFIADL is run by the USAF, however it only manages CAP tests, it has nothing to do with creating or updating them

[lordmonar]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

Yes....but I don't have to maintain my certification to keep my GT rateing.

Yes, you should - an expired qualification is worthless.

Just because I lost my card....does not mean I can stop serious bleeding, splint a broken leg, spot the signs of shock, diabetic shock/coma, perform CPR.

I beleive in insuring that a your skills are brushed up from time to time.....but that is different then giving someone 70$ for a new card ever 2-3 years.

If you look at the regulations about recerting your ES quals.....it says you do not have demonstrate all the tasks....just prove to the certifier that you know the required information.

[LGM30GMCC]

Here's a question too...

The USAF does not teach 'first aid' to its members anymore. We have 'Self-Aid Buddy Care.' It is an 'approved course' for our basic work-place needs. That being said it teaches things that my actual first-aid class didn't teach. This includes objects in eyes, controlling bleeding both under fire and in a non-hostile environment, treating bullet wounds, etc. If we went through the class as a unit, taught by one of our SABC certified instructors...would that meet the requirement? No card is issued, but the training is probably into some really nasty things we should never see on a mission.

[Eclipse]

If you look at the regulations about recerting your ES quals.....it says you do not have demonstrate all the tasks....just prove to the certifier that you know the required information.

The standard set for the training, as per 60-3, indicates that retraining is important and that the certifying body may set any standard it deems
appropriate.

AHSI, for example, expires every 3 years.  They are the certifying body, the SET merely accepts the card as the completion of the required training.
Past the expiration date, that card is no more valuable than an expired driver's license, since the body who certified you now says you are no
longer "current".

Since the SET is not, by design, a First Aid instructor, there is no way you can properly "show him you still know the required information".

Also, if you're paying $70, you're doing something wrong.  I've never in my life paid more than $50 for a class, and that was for a full-on prenatal
first aid & CPR with the additional infant care added in.  If the ARC wants to price themselves out of the market, fine, there are other alternatives.

[Eclipse]

Here's a question too...

The USAF does not teach 'first aid' to its members anymore. We have 'Self-Aid Buddy Care.' It is an 'approved course' for our basic work-place needs. That being said it teaches things that my actual first-aid class didn't teach. This includes objects in eyes, controlling bleeding both under fire and in a non-hostile environment, treating bullet wounds, etc. If we went through the class as a unit, taught by one of our SABC certified instructors...would that meet the requirement? No card is issued, but the training is probably into some really nasty things we should never see on a mission.

Something that should be discussed, in advance, with your wing, since they have the ultimate authority.

For proper approval, though, it would need to be shown that the SABC meets or exceeds the standard set in 60-3 (ASTM F2171), and then there's still
the issue of no cards, no sanctioning body, and no required retraining.  Further, would the USAF allow its instructors to teach no military personnel and
then accept the liability?

[SarDragon]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

Yes....but I don't have to maintain my certification to keep my GT rateing.

Really? When my first aid expired, that immediately expired my FLM and GT3 ratings. This was a few years ago, so things might have changed.

[Eclipse]

Really? When my first aid expired, that immediately expired my FLM and GT3 ratings. This was a few years ago, so things might have changed.

Was that under the WMU or eServices?  I think the WMU did that, but in looking at eServices I don't see where that would be automatic, and I have been in front of the curve because an FA cert is required for my as a motorcycle instructor.

It certainly should be something considered during a requal sortie, since an expired first aid cert means you are no longer fam/prepped.

[Spaceman3750]

Really? When my first aid expired, that immediately expired my FLM and GT3 ratings. This was a few years ago, so things might have changed.

Was that under the WMU or eServices?  I think the WMU did that, but in looking at eServices I don't see where that would be automatic, and I have been in front of the curve because an FA cert is required for my as a motorcycle instructor.

It certainly should be something considered during a requal sortie, since an expired first aid cert means you are no longer fam/prepped.

First aid is an advanced task.

[Eclipse]

First aid is an advanced task.

Duh, you're right.

Which puts it squarely in consideration during re-qualification.

[Spaceman3750]

First aid is an advanced task.

Duh, you're right.

Which puts it squarely in consideration during re-qualification.

Unless you're a GTM2/1 or GTL, in which case the evaluator is going to take the advanced tasks from the highest qual since when you renew your highest your lower ones renew (at least that's what the table says, who knows what eServices actually does).

[Eclipse]

That's correct, eservices only does what you tell it, and only gives equivalency credit when it is manually entered, though one could
make the argument that the evaluator would be within his rights to ask to see the first aid card, since the roll-up tasks are requisites
for the higher ones, and that card is specifically called out by regs as required equipment.

Another unintended consequence of breaking up the rating into 3 levels.

[Ed Bos]

Here's a question too...

The USAF does not teach 'first aid' to its members anymore. We have 'Self-Aid Buddy Care.' It is an 'approved course' for our basic work-place needs. That being said it teaches things that my actual first-aid class didn't teach. This includes objects in eyes, controlling bleeding both under fire and in a non-hostile environment, treating bullet wounds, etc. If we went through the class as a unit, taught by one of our SABC certified instructors...would that meet the requirement? No card is issued, but the training is probably into some really nasty things we should never see on a mission.

Having been, only until very recently, an AF SABC instructor, I asked John Desmarais at NHQ if SABC met the requirement.
His answer was yes.  The major concern was whether or not there was a hand-on portion of the course, and not just academic instruction.

As was pointed out though, YMMV.

[Ed Bos]

That's correct, eservices only does what you tell it, and only gives equivalency credit when it is manually entered, though one could
make the argument that the evaluator would be within his rights to ask to see the first aid card, since the roll-up tasks are requisites
for the higher ones, and that card is specifically called out by regs as required equipment.

Another unintended consequence of breaking up the rating into 3 levels.

The card is only required if it's current.

The "c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)" requirement on the equipment list is only to ensure that you have everything relevant that you may need.  I'll recommend that be clarified in the next draft of the GSAR reference text.

[Ed Bos]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

Yes....but I don't have to maintain my certification to keep my GT rateing.

Yes, you should - an expired qualification is worthless.

Worthless, but not required by CAP.

For reasons that relate to a whole other can o' worms....   

[sarmed1]

RE: USAF SABC.  My wing hands out a "card" its paper wallet sized completion certificate/trainig record (I am sure there is a form number on it somewhere) When I was at AFSOC they had their own "card" as well.  It does have a training expiration date (I think its actually every 24 moths).  I have in the pass taught SABC to CAP units to meet the GTM first aid requirement and issued cards and recorded the roster with the wing SABC monitor.  The USAF participates in the Military Training Network......which is basically an AHA affiliated program offering CPR and ACLS that meet the AHA teaching standards but specific to military personnel (civilian employees included) I have also issued MTN completion cards to CAP members.  Both have fell under the guideline of the commanders discretiuon in support of CAP programs jargon out of the governing AFI's (SABC says somehting along the lines CC can direct other base personnel to complete at their discretion etc etc)
That being said the availability/permission may realy only extend to units that meet on a military base, and then likely only if you have an "in" with an instructor.  Also they arent worth much outside of military circles.  Though never as good as free I am a big fan of ECSI.  They are very cost effective for both CPR and first aid.  They offer the same levels of CPR as the AHA/ARC from a bystander level to a proffesional rescuer level and first aid form a basic thru first responder, including a wilderness specific course (8, 16 or 32 hours options).  They offer both an instructor development course or a "grandfathering" for people that hold an instructor qualification in another (usually healthcare related) discipline.  You can establish your own "training center"  I have sene it done by individual members, squadrons and wing level CAP folks out there (as well as numerous private and public entities)
The major cost stipulation is that you buy the instructor resource kit for whatever course you are going to teach and you buy the cards.  Standard First Aid, CPR and AED is $240 for the instructor kit, $14 for the book and a sheet of 6 cards is like $30.  A wing could easily purchase the instructor kit and a library of books to loan out to students and squadron could register thier local level medical guy as an instructor under the wings training site and ideally only show a $5 cost to students (maybe $10 if you wanted to recoup the initial book and tool kit investment)

mk

[RiverAux]

I really don't understand why CAP couldn't just incorporate some of tasks found in typical first aid classes directly into the ground team training program.  Its not like the basics of how to stop bleeding, etc. are going to change so often that the information is going to get terribly outdated.  This dependence on outside agencies for teaching material that is less technical and difficult than a lot of what we teach outselves in the ES program just wastes member time and money.  If CAP can take on the "liability" of certifying someone as a CAP pilot, we should be able to certify how someone applies direct pressure to a bleeding wound. 

[Eclipse]

^ That gets to the heart of it, CAP doesn't certify a pilot any more than it certifies a driver who is issued a CAP DL.

A Form 5 or 91 confirms the knowledge and understanding of CAP's internal flight procedures, but member's are simply substantiating
the completion of an outside licensure.  CAP has no say whether an individual member can fly airplanes, only CAP airplanes.  Members
"grounded" by CAP for some procedural infraction  are free to fly their personal aircraft home.  Hardly "certification".

Exactly the same as with first aid.

[Sapper168]

RE: USAF SABC.  My wing hands out a "card" its paper wallet sized completion certificate/trainig record (I am sure there is a form number on it somewhere) When I was at AFSOC they had their own "card" as well.  It does have a training expiration date (I think its actually every 24 moths).  I have in the pass taught SABC to CAP units to meet the GTM first aid requirement and issued cards and recorded the roster with the wing SABC monitor.  The USAF participates in the Military Training Network......which is basically an AHA affiliated program offering CPR and ACLS that meet the AHA teaching standards but specific to military personnel (civilian employees included) I have also issued MTN completion cards to CAP members.  Both have fell under the guideline of the commanders discretiuon in support of CAP programs jargon out of the governing AFI's (SABC says somehting along the lines CC can direct other base personnel to complete at their discretion etc etc)
That being said the availability/permission may realy only extend to units that meet on a military base, and then likely only if you have an "in" with an instructor.  Also they arent worth much outside of military circles.  Though never as good as free I am a big fan of ECSI.  They are very cost effective for both CPR and first aid.  They offer the same levels of CPR as the AHA/ARC from a bystander level to a proffesional rescuer level and first aid form a basic thru first responder, including a wilderness specific course (8, 16 or 32 hours options).  They offer both an instructor development course or a "grandfathering" for people that hold an instructor qualification in another (usually healthcare related) discipline.  You can establish your own "training center"  I have sene it done by individual members, squadrons and wing level CAP folks out there (as well as numerous private and public entities)
The major cost stipulation is that you buy the instructor resource kit for whatever course you are going to teach and you buy the cards.  Standard First Aid, CPR and AED is $240 for the instructor kit, $14 for the book and a sheet of 6 cards is like $30.  A wing could easily purchase the instructor kit and a library of books to loan out to students and squadron could register thier local level medical guy as an instructor under the wings training site and ideally only show a $5 cost to students (maybe $10 if you wanted to recoup the initial book and tool kit investment)

mk

To be honest a quit reading somewhere in the first line.  I was overwhelmed and scared by that big block of letters....

[Eclipse]

I have sene it done by individual members, squadrons and wing level CAP folks out there (as well as numerous private and public entities)The major cost stipulation is that you buy the instructor resource kit for whatever course you are going to teach and you buy the cards.  Standard First Aid, CPR and AED is $240 for the instructor kit, $14 for the book and a sheet of 6 cards is like $30.  A wing could easily purchase the instructor kit and a library of books to loan out to students and squadron could register thier local level medical guy as an instructor under the wings training site and ideally only show a $5 cost to students (maybe $10 if you wanted to recoup the initial book and tool kit investment)

In days of yore we paid to have several members certified as instructors, which was great for a while, but then they moved out of state and with them went the investment and the expertise.

Another advantage of doing this out-of-house is less risk of a "ticket punch", whether it's ICS, First Aid, or whatever, in a lot of cases, classes taught internally are both "inbred" and "expedient", since the instructors "know what we need".