Question about Flight Commanders and Flight Sergeants

[TexasBirdGirl]

I am a DCC of a fairly large composite squadron. 83 members total 41 Cadets 42 seniors.

Right now, I do not have any Cadet officers as they have moved and transferred or are off away at college.

I have a C/CMSGT who I plan to assign as CC as he has been our 1st Sergeant for quite sometime and has been acting CC.

This is my dilemma...or actually the Cadets dilemma:

Last night my acting CC made some new assignments, we have a new 1st Sergeant

We have 2 Flights and each is broken up into 3 elements.
Each Flight has a Flight Commander and Flight Sergeant.
That seems fairly redundant to me since the Commanders are NCOs just like the Flight Sergeants. All being C/CMSGTs.
The Flight Sergeants were actually put in charge of the Flights.
The Commanders we told to act as mentors to the Flight Sergeants.
Does this sound like it makes any sort of sense??

Any help on this would be appreciated.
Thank you!

[MIKE]

I'm a proponent of grade appropriate staffing, so if it were me I would cut the Flight Commander slots unless they are being filled by C/CMSgts who will likely be C/2d Lt's in a month or two.  Same thing with your "cadet commander", I'd keep him as the first shirt until he puts pips on... Even then, I might rather move him to a Flight Commander slot instead of to C/CC immediately.

[TexasBirdGirl]

Hey Mike, Thank you!!!

I think this young man, will get his Mitchell soon. He is working towards it. But has been slowed down because he has been wearing, too many hats.

When we lost our CC, it left a big hole in our squadron. There was some controversy about the departure (won't get into that here).
That said, my goal has always been to allow the cadets to lead. Without a CC and so many Cadets, it is difficult.
In other words who is driving the bus?

The 1st Sergeant is not the driver he is the liaison between the cadets and the CC. The CC plans and the 1st implements.
I took the steering wheel for a short time just so we would not crash, then I gave it to the 1st. I just do not think it is fair to expect him to do the job of the CC and the 1st, and I think it is confusing to the Cadets.
When I was at the wheel even for the short period of time I was, a lot of resentment built up with the Cadets.

This young man, stepped up and did the job, because he is a good leader. I just cannot expect him to do everything. He is really involved in SAR as well, as working on his pilot's license. We are an extremely active squadron, and most of our Cadets have followed suit.

I am not going to take the wheel back.
So, how do I run a squadron this size this without a CC?

Sorry, struggling here a bit.  Having so many cadets means that we have several cadets that are Chiefs and we then get an influx of officers. I was very recently officer heavy.  But all  were C/2d LTs If I was strickly going by grade I would be a long way from a CC, or any other cadet officer position.

I believe that maturity and leadership ability are often better indicators than grade for a particular position. Some cadets just test well, if you know what I mean.

Not arguing, just the dynamic I have seen. Which adds to this dilemma!

[Spaceman3750]

What about designating him as "NCO In Charge" or something of the sort and designate another one of your C/CMSgt cadets as 1st? I'm not sure this is exactly kosher with the CP program regs but it is something to think about. This would allow him to take the wheel while letting his 1st Sgt. duties fall onto another capable cadet.

[TexasBirdGirl]

Thanks. I will keep researching. But I like the idea.

We already gave the 1st to another C/MSGT.


Which brings me back to the OT Flight Commanders and Flight Sergeants?

Help??

I want them to lead the program...but I don't want them to crash and burn!

[lordmonar]

A lot of this is just word smithing.

The cadet in charge is the cadet in charge....no matter what his rank or title.

The question is.....are your cadets ready to do the job?

If you give someone the title of cadet commander he/she should be doing that job.....if he is not ready for it...then a senior member must do it.

This runs the razor edge between the cadet run vs senior run progrom.

As the DCC you have to evaluate your cadets....are they ready to run their own program?  If not then you need to tailor the program to train them up to take over.

The trick is to know when to step back and give the cadets the reins and let them sink (a little) or swim.

Good luck!

[MIKE]

I want them to lead the program...but I don't want them to crash and burn!

How will they learn if you don't let them fail? (At least to some extent.)  I also don't know what your level of experience is here.  I'm a former Earhart cadet, and have been a CP senior in two different units, including as DCC... and I have seen this particular issue from both ends, both as a cadet and as a senior.  You might have to step in here even if don't want to, or are not comfortable with the idea.

[Ned]

There's a lot of good information about how to tailor a cadet staff organization to situations like this in the Cadet Staff Handbook (CAPP 52-15), especially chapter 1 and Appendix 2.

Definately worth a look.


Ned Lee
Acting National Cadet Advisor

[coudano]

First of all, go get on the same page with your commander, so that you aren't doing anything that surprises him, and he isn't doing anything that surprises you.  that's job #1, and it will save you *A LOT* of heartburn later.


Second, I don't see any problem with having more experienced NCO's mentor less experienced NCO's.  There's no 'need' to call them Commander, just to have someone filling some square on an org chart, but ultimately like they said it doesn't matter what you *CALL* them, it matters what they are actually *DOING*.

Hopefully some of those Chiefs will become Lieutenants real soon.

[TexasBirdGirl]

Okay, I think my question was misunderstood. And Mike, I have no problem jumping in...Part of the job.
I have only been in CAP for a few years, and have been the DCC for almost one year.  I am a former teacher, so I am used to working with young people.  I have completed my senior rating in cadet programs.
They have a Cadet Programs Specialty Track, for a reason. We are not there to just supervise. If that were the case, no Specialty Track would be necessary.

In my opinion there is a difference between cadet led and cadet run. A squadron could exist with or without cadets,  but could not exist without seniors. Cadets are a big part of the program but are not Civil Air Patrol as a whole.
I choose working with cadets, because I like young people, I love watching them learn and grow. That is why I went into teaching. I believe we can learn quite a bit from each other. CAP is a great way to experience that exchange.  I have studied the CAPP 52-15. That is why I am asking the OT question.
What they did, did not make sense to me. But they really wanted to do this, so with apprehension I okay'ed it...for now.



I am not really concerned about the CC position. The Cadet we plan on putting in that position is more than ready, and has been acting as both the 1st Sgt and CC for several months now. He was 1st Sgt for about a year,   was a flight Sgt for a year before that, and has held several other Cadet positions in the squadron. He is no longer the 1st Sergeant, another cadet was appointed that position last night.

I have a working relationship with my Commander, no real issues there. We discuss everything, but he appointed a DCC for a reason. He trusts my judgment.


My question was about Flight Commanders and Flight Sergeants.

I think that the cadets made an error here.  I do not  have an issue with them learning from their mistakes, but there is time for guidance...hence, I am asking the OT question.

You all have given me quite a bit to think about here.
Thank you!
I really think I can learn a lot from those a bit  more experienced than I am!!

[KioGoten]

Well if I might add my two cents 

Ok so your telling us that you have a C/CMSgt as your CC (Likely C/2LT soon)

1st Sergeant has been passed down to another C/CMSgt

You have two flight commanders who delligate orders to the flight sergeants.  All of whom are Senior NCO's. 

Well I think you should have the C/CMSgt's official title be CC or if you want NCOIC (until he pins on 2LT)

So CC --> 1st Sergeant --> (Get rid of the Flight Commanders) and have 2 Flight Sergeants since you have 6 elements split into 2 flights (The element leaders of course report to the flight sergeants)

The Flight Sergeants should report to the 1st Sergeant and the 1st SGT should report to the CC. 

At least thats how I think it should go... sounds right lol.

No matter what, being top NCO heavy is a good thing, they are seasoned and ready to become officers.

[TexasBirdGirl]

KioGoten, BINGO...that is what I was thinking might be the right way to go.
I just really feel rotten, for the 2 that were assigned Flight Commander..one of them especially. They other one will be okay about it.
I guess, I have got to make a difficult call. Not the first time.
Again, thank you all.

[KioGoten]

You got it.  Maybe you can give the flight commanders the positions of the flight sergeants since they were a higher position.

The flight sergeants will have to make due as element leaders.  But whoever you pick as the flight sergeants, should be the best 2 out of the four.

Hope I helped ^_^

[MIKE]

The flight sergeants will have to make due as element leaders.  But whoever you pick as the flight sergeants, should be the best 2 out of the four.

You have two, make them the assigned Guide for each flight... As always, move them up when the assigned Flight Sergeant is MIA.

[ZigZag911]

You folks are engaging in virtually meaningless semantics.

The cadet in charge is the C/CC de facto.

If you have 43 active cadets who actually show up, the cadet commander needs some kind of staff; precisely what positions need to be filled  needs to be determined by the DCC and the C/CC (who, by the way, should not be appointing anyone to anything without obtaining the approval of the DCC, who represents the squadron commander!!!)

Do you need flight sergeants? Depends; are there a lot of inexperienced cadets? Or cadets progressing slowly through the program, who might need a lot of guidance and supervision?

Finally, all of you should make your lives simpler:

1) don't be your own cadet commander, it's not appropriate for a senior member; with a less experienced cadet leadership group, the DCC and senior staff will need to be more directly involved in planning, and more closely supervise execution of the program -- but, as much as possible, it should be done by cadets

2) as for titles, if it makes you feel better, call them "acting" commander/flight commander and so forth till they become C/2 Lt...let that be an incentive to get the Mitchell. Also make it clear that cadet officers get a term of office, NCOs serving in officer slots are interim (they can be removed at any moment!)

[NC Hokie]

Also make it clear that cadet officers get a term of office, NCOs serving in officer slots are interim (they can be removed at any moment!)

DOH!  Why haven't I thought of that?  Wait, I just did!

Thanks ZigZag911!  I think this will get implemented at my squadron very soon.

[ZigZag911]

Happy to oblige! After almost 40 years  doing this I ought to have picked up an idea or two!

[Nathan]

I'm going to disagree with pretty much everyone. 

I think the idea that the "head cadet" who is a C/SSgt will hold the same duties as a "head cadet" who is a C/Capt is ridiculous, as I think that most of the people here will agree. There's just no way. So why would we give them the same title?

A title is essentially paired with a job description. We have had a lot of different CAP/CC's, and not all of them work the same way, but the overall DUTIES are the same. We have a lot of Wing Commanders in charge of different sizes and types of units, but still have the same overall DUTIES.

The duty of a C/CC is much different than the duty of a C/1st Sgt, or a C/Flight Commander, or any other position. A C/CC is, as I've always seen it, expected to pretty much be limited in authority ONLY by what is outside of his or her legal jurisdiction. Not "free reign", of course, since SM supervision is still required. But the C/CC should be doing a lot of the planning duties, such as preparing a weekly, monthly, and yearly schedule, assigning staff, handling problems within the staff, and ultimately taking some of the responsibility for failures within the cadet unit.

A C/1st Sgt should probably not be held to these standards. The duties of a C/1st Sgt, at least as far as the cadet program goes, does not even include him/her in the chain of command. Flight Commanders have many of the same duties as a C/CC, but on a lesser scale, so they'll be in full authority of their own flight, but use that authority to carry out the will of the C/CC to the best of ability.

So what is a senior member to do if there is no one ready to take on the duties of a C/CC? Do exactly what CAPR 52-16 lets you do. Keep the position vacant, and hold those duties yourself until the MOMENT a cadet is ready to take over. Until that point, have a couple of flight commanders that report to you. You set the agenda, schedule, and so forth, and they carry out the orders, still with as much independence as you can give them.

Just remember that there are two types of damage being done by placing a cadet in charge who is too inexperienced, or just plain not ready, to take on the job duties assigned.

1) Damage to the squadron happens in a couple of ways. Ignoring the obvious damage done by someone who just doesn't know what they're doing, the standards for the position are also significantly lowered. For instance, when you appoint a C/CMSgt as C/CC of the squadron, then the expectation becomes such that a C/CMSgt is actually qualified to hold the position in most cases. Not only that, but if you have to help the C/CMSgt out significantly (thus giving the cadet the title, but not the duties, of the C/CC), you'll find those later C/CC's will not consider this part of these "passed" duties to be something for which they should be responsible. And why should they? They were your duties before.

Finally, how do you decide when the cadet is finished commanding? You have to make a choice. You can replace him when another C/CMSgt becomes ready so you can keep the term limits reasonable, therefore cementing your standards for the position in the NCO range. Or, you have to leave the cadet in the position for a very long term to build up your officer corps, which is only going to demotivate other cadets, since they have to prove themselves to be twice as ready for the position of C/CC as the current holder had to.

2) The damage to the cadet cannot be understated, either. Just like people who buzz through the program and earn their Spaatz at 14, a cadet holding the prime cadet position at the squadron level too early is going will have very little to do later on. After all, it's awkward for most people to serve in a position subordinate to a position that they had already held, especially when their new commander was the previous week a subordinate. But at squadron level, there is no higher position than the C/CC, and wing positions appropriate for higher cadets are pretty rare. Some cadets, like me, found a way to keep ourselves busy for the last year that we were in the program after we got out of being a C/CC, mainly by "advising." But if a cadet has four or five years left in the program and has already served as the C/CC, you can't expect him/her to stick around as "adviser" for that long. Chances are high that you're just going to lose the cadet before he/she earns the Spaatz.

Bottom line: Keep the positions open if you have no one ready to take over. I am against having a program that is senior-run, but I'm even more against a program where the cadets are forced into a position that they aren't ready to accept. That goes against the whole point of senior member supervision. You want your standards to be uniform, and you want to make sure the C/CC you appoint first is going to have the same job as the C/CC you appoint ten years from now. If you let the cadets know what the job is and what they have to manage to be qualified per your criteria (ie, at least a C/1st Lt, attended encampment as a staff member, etc), then you'll create a competition to be the better leader between eligible members, which is never a bad thing.

[ZigZag911]

To some degree we need to look at this the way the military does -- the person designated in charge by higher authority is the 'commander', and in the absence or disability of that individual, there is a 'chain of command' down which authority devolves.

In the absence of a defined chain of command, command authority falls on the senior ranking person present in a 'line' role.

Now of course with cadets there will always be a senior member present, but our role is to supervise, guide, teach...generally step in as little as possible.

In the early-mid 80s I was a DCC, small squadron in a 're-building' mode; as a Captain I found myself doing something I hadn't done since my days as a cadet officer 10 years earlier --with a big difference: I focused on preparing some of them to lead/teach drill even as I was teaching them to drill. There was never a meeting when I drilled them exclusively, and my aim was to develop cadet leadership as soon as possible.

There needed to be adaptations. We always had a C/CC, who often functioned more like a flight commander because of a low number of cadets...as we grew, we began to fill in other positions; flight sergeant was probably first, gradually adding a second flight (never did get big enough for a third!), 1 Sgt at that point, eventually several 'officer' positions (C/DC, admin, training officers).

Bottom line: you can't teach cadets leadership unless you give them the opportunity to lead!

[TexasBirdGirl]

You got it.  Maybe you can give the flight commanders the positions of the flight sergeants since they were a higher position.

The flight sergeants will have to make due as element leaders.  But whoever you pick as the flight sergeants, should be the best 2 out of the four.

Hope I helped ^_^

You did indeed!!