Military Service Question to everyone...

[Major Lord]

My question was not so much designed to open up the question about whether homosexuals should be allowed to join the military, but rather, the question of whether lying to the military is ever permissible and ethical.  Clearly, the people taking the position that its okay to lie if its for a "good reason" are in the majority here. If you feel its okay to lie about being homosexual, its not a far leap to lying about other disqualifying conditions. Everyone who lies feels its in their best interest and for a good reason, but we have rules to cover areas where the individual  conscience may be weak or malformed.

Major Lord

[Stonewall]

My question was not so much designed to open up the question about whether homosexuals should be allowed to join the military, but rather, the question of whether lying to the military is ever permissible and ethical.  Clearly, the people taking the position that its okay to lie if its for a "good reason" are in the majority here. If you feel its okay to lie about being homosexual, its not a far leap to lying about other disqualifying conditions. Everyone who lies feels its in their best interest and for a good reason, but we have rules to cover areas where the individual  conscience may be weak or malformed.

The fact is, lying is not morally right to most.  For some, they don't know what is right in the first place so it's a moot point.  But for normal every day people like us on CAP Talk, we have to make a conscious effort to lie or, if you want to call it that, or fail to include a piece of information that may disqualify you from service.  Either way, lying is always risky.  Failing to provide all medical information is risky.  My guess is that most people in this discussion have lied at some point in their adult/professional/military lives.  Was it worth the risk?  Sure, if you didn't get caught.

[Major Lord]

I know that some people take the position that lying is always immoral and wrong. I don't. We are taught to lie from an early age. When Aunt Susie asks if the dress she is wearing makes her look fat, we learn quickly that the truth is not a defense when it comes to offending robust aunts. Police lie to suspects, wives to husbands, boyfriends to girlfriends, and all possible combinations. Lying merely for personal gain is another matter, and most people would view that, at least objectively, as wrong. Lying to get a job in the military, on the surface, looks to be one of those just plain wrong kinds of lies: The kind we tell for personal gain. It could well be the lie of of young man or woman who's desire to serve is just so great that they are willing to set aside their integrity to make it happen, but lies tend to take on a life of their own, and moral things rarely spring from immoral actions.

On a more practical matter, how many people have actually been prosecuted for a false enlistment for lying about something as mundane as a childhood history of Asthma? I have heard of enlistees leaving the military after very short stays after their drug tests came back, and other then separation, there were no legal consequences. I suppose this  kind of lie has a low risk to rewards benefit ratio.

Major Lord

[raivo]

My question was not so much designed to open up the question about whether homosexuals should be allowed to join the military, but rather, the question of whether lying to the military is ever permissible and ethical.  Clearly, the people taking the position that its okay to lie if its for a "good reason" are in the majority here. If you feel its okay to lie about being homosexual, its not a far leap to lying about other disqualifying conditions. Everyone who lies feels its in their best interest and for a good reason, but we have rules to cover areas where the individual  conscience may be weak or malformed.

It's a tough question, to be sure.

Which is why I took the cowardly route of not actually answering the question, and instead focused on the penalties for fraudulent enlistment.

[davedove]

The simple fact is that many times lies are not discovered.  That's where integrity comes in, doing the right thing when no one is looking.

However, in this situation, suppose the individual gains entry into the military and an incident occurs.  One of the first things the military tries to do is find out what went wrong.  At this point the lie is uncovered and the military suddenly has someone they can blame.

[Spike]

It's a tough question, to be sure.

As an Officer you should know the answer to this question.  Anything other than "disclose the condition", makes you a BAD Officer.  You are the role model these young men and women joining today are going to be seen by.  Truth is all we have in life.  The moral, academic and social truths hold this society together.  Everyone may look at this as "one lie that produces a great defender of freedom", but in the end no matter how awesome a person turns out to be, should the truth get out it will overpower any other beliefs we have about said person.

So you don't give your opinion.  That is OK.  We are incapable of judging your character when you do not give us anything to judge. 

I only used you as an example, but those of you telling him to lie.....think about this.  If he does have asthma (and we do not know if he does or not), and he does not disclose it what happens should he have an attack while in a training environment?  What happens if he has an attack on the far side of the wire while patrolling an airfield.  What happens if he has an attack at a computer terminal in an office building on Wright-Patt?  Those of you that know how serious asthma can be will know that he may not be able to speak and say "I have asthma".  The local EMT may not treat him as though he has asthma.  His battle buddies may have no idea how to treat an asthmatic attack.

The point is this is a lie that could (may or may not) endanger his life if he does not disclose it.  The most that may happen should he have an asthma attack and he "left it off the application" is a discharge and a bill from DFAS for hospitalization.  They will withold his last paycheck, and may even go after money spent on his medical costs.  In the long run, if he goes to school on the Governments expense they absolutely will send collection letters for repayment of used money. He will lose all VA benefits (even if he paid into them). 

[raivo]

As an Officer you should know the answer to this question.  Anything other than "disclose the condition", makes you a BAD Officer.  You are the role model these young men and women joining today are going to be seen by.  Truth is all we have in life.  The moral, academic and social truths hold this society together.  Everyone may look at this as "one lie that produces a great defender of freedom", but in the end no matter how awesome a person turns out to be, should the truth get out it will overpower any other beliefs we have about said person.

Well, I'll put it this way:

I would not do it myself, and I would advise against someone else doing it. He would be putting himself and others at risk if his asthma made a reappearance down the road. (Which goes back to waivers - if a doctor thinks that's unlikely to reoccur, then that's fine, but an individual shouldn't be making that decision on their own.)

At the same time, however, I think Major Lord raised a very good point. As all the oldschool military folks know, prior to 1993, it was illegal for homosexuals to serve in the military. You would be asked as part of the recruitment process if you were homosexual, and if you said yes, sorry, the military didn't want you. So, if you self-identified as gay, but nobody else knew... in order to join the military, you would have to knowingly falsify your enlistment documents by checking the "not gay" box. Is it an integrity breach? Yes. Is there any harm? No.

As a matter of integrity, in both situations it would be wrong, and that's the standard that we go by. We have to live by the rules, but that doesn't necessarily mean the rules are always fair - and when they're not fair, people are tempted to bend them.

I guess you could call me "opposed, but sympathetic."

[flyboy53]

Clearly, the people taking the position that its okay to lie if its for a "good reason" are in the majority here...If you feel its okay to lie about being homosexual, its not a far leap to lying about other disqualifying conditions...Everyone who lies feels its in their best interest and for a good reason, but we have rules to cover areas where the individual  conscience may be weak or malformed.

It's a tough question, to be sure.

Which is why I took the cowardly route of not actually answering the question, and instead focused on the penalties for fraudulent enlistment.

Then let the Retired Master Sergeant/CAP Lt. Col. answer it for you. No it's not o.k. to lie. The military is a culture built on honor and trust. Lies breed mistrust which destroys unit cohesion. From a different frame of reference, the same thing applies to the CAP. You want to see a unit destroyed, fill it full of liars who are obviously motivated for themselves and not the team.

Lieutenant, it is my hope that you find a good senior NCO that can mentor you in all facets of leadership, you're going to need it...."cowardly?" You need to pull out your leadership manuals and review them.

[lordmonar]

How's that go?

Oh yes...that's right!

Integrity First!

Having said that...there is a time and place to break the rules.

IMHO this is not one of them.  If you have a DQ condition.....ask for a waiver.  You would be suprised at what they will waiver these days.  If you are turned down.....look for other ways to serve.

[Cecil DP]

**NOTE*** I did not read all of the responses so this is purely to the OP....

I am NOT saying go for it and "forget" to put down your medical history that may disqualify you from service.  However, I will tell you a few stories of close friends...one of whom shares my last name.

Former CAP Cadet Wayne: Accepted to UF and attended Army ROTC there.  During a physical he admitted to some sort of skin disorder and he lost his ROTC scholarship.  They said he couldn't serve, period.  After two years of college without ROTC and a burning desire to serve, he went to a recruiter, DID NOT disclose his disqualifying skin disorder and enlisted.  He was a Cavalry Scout, made it through Special Forces and then got accepted to Warrant Officer Flight School.  He is now a CW-3 flying Kiowa Warriors.

Long time friend Patrick: Served in the Marine Corps for 4 years and got out.  After 9/11 he wanted to serve again, but this time in Navy Special Warfare.  Unfortunately he is color blind and the job he wanted required good vision.  I won't tell you how, but he managed to acquire the color blind test booklet and memorized it.  He passed with flying colors.  After 8 years, 5 tours of combat, Military Freefall School, 18D medic school, numerous other schools, he is still serving with color blindness.

SSgt Sandy:  She decided after 9/11 that she wanted to serve.  At age 30 she went to a National Guard recruiter.  Knowing she had asthma all her life, but fully capable of running 5 miles and passing any PT test the Air Force could throw at her, she went for it and did not mention her "condition".  7 years later she is still serving without incident.  She is also on a regional disaster/WMD response team that requires her to use specialized respirators and chemical suits...still no issues.

SFC Paul:  As a 15 year old he was in a bad car accident.  He lost a kidney.  Not knowing whether or not it would disqualify him from military service, he simply didn't mention it.  When asked about the scar, he said it was a bad cut from when he fell on a fence.  No one asked any further questions.  Paul has served 16 years in the Infantry, graduated Ranger School and has served 3 combat tours in Iraq.  He has the Bronze Star with "V" device.

It's your decision.  It's a risk to take that could have major repercussions.  But as the British SAS say "Who dares wins".

There was a Marine in the mid-60's who was blind in one eye. When he went to MEPS, he read the chart with his good eye, than covered his blind eye and reread it again with the same eye. He went to Vietnam and earned the CMH. when he tried to reenlist after a break in service he was caught and denied reenlistment. He called the Commandant of the Marine Corps  who personally gave him  the waiver. He retired 30 years later as a MSG. 

[Stonewall]

There was a Marine in the mid-60's who was blind in one eye. When he went to MEPS, he read the chart with his good eye, than covered his blind eye and reread it again with the same eye. He went to Vietnam and earned the CMH. when he tried to reenlist after a break in service he was caught and denied reenlistment. He called the Commandant of the Marine Corps  who personally gave him  the waiver. He retired 30 years later as a MSG.

Great story.  Makes me think of all the WWII men that lied about their age so they could fight.  The youngest US serviceman was 12 year old Calvin Graham, USN. He was wounded in combat and given a Dishonorable Discharge for lying about his age.  Shame on him. 

[raivo]

Then let the Retired Master Sergeant/CAP Lt. Col. answer it for you. No it's not o.k. to lie. The military is a culture built on honor and trust. Lies breed mistrust which destroys unit cohesion. From a different frame of reference, the same thing applies to the CAP. You want to see a unit destroyed, fill it full of liars who are obviously motivated for themselves and not the team.

Lieutenant, it is my hope that you find a good senior NCO that can mentor you in all facets of leadership, you're going to need it...."cowardly?" You need to pull out your leadership manuals and review them.

Read what I said just above - I did some more considering. I'm sticking with "opposed, but sympathetic."