Military Service Question to everyone...

[davedove]

I won't disagree with you Stonewall, but I'm sure you realize the military (or the government at large for that manner) doesn't think that way.  They thrive on general rules and have a hard time considering exceptions.

[Major Lord]

I wonder how many people here would be okay with a potential military member lying or omitting  because they were homosexual, as opposed to asthmatic?

Major Lord

[Irishrenegade]

I wonder how many people here would be okay with a potential military member lying or omitting  because they were homosexual, as opposed to asthmatic?

Major Lord

That is a sticky topic but at the same time...who gives a flying hoot if your homosexual...if you can protect the guy/girl next to you than I will certainly entrust you with my life...granted I may not share the same ideals as that person but if they wear that flag on their right shoulder as I am then we have a duty to the country. When you put on that uniform your personal issues should go out out the window.

[heliodoc]

^^^
Agree with renegade, Stonewall, ncrblues,etc etc etc etc

How about CAP cleanin its own house before jumpin on the military recruits for lying on initial entry?

Think CAP is above board on all things ethical?  Maybe CAP need a real CAP Boot Camp for volunteers...can cut the CAP mustard? Lied on your app?  Said too many ummms in your presentations? Didn't fill out your form 104's and 109's right?  Didn't check the air pressure on a CAP van?

I have seen some of this in RM and CAP also.   CAP needs to clean up its own program before even leveling assessments against the RM for its issues.  Some of the missions in the RM require plenty different training standards and equating the REMF MOS's as "no different than civilian office workers" is baloney. Maybe some of us could and would say there PLENTY of dead weight in ALLLLLLL levels in CAP.  How is CAP NHQ and volunteer personnel any different.  Maybe there ought to  be new standards to be on the CAP NEC BoG...how a about a 3 mile run with a 50 lb ruck on those folks?  How about a night land nav with rain?  How about new service requirements for ALL CAP levels..   The ICS  reqs were only the beginning!!  Now its time to stop making new online tests and get out in the field.

Screw up in CAP?  You are out!!!

Oh by the way CAPTalkers, continue....like you do  sorta done with my rant....... heheheehe

[Stonewall]

I wonder how many people here would be okay with a potential military member lying or omitting  because they were homosexual, as opposed to asthmatic?

Major Lord

No issues here.  In fact, I wouldn't care if he/she were open about it.  I have no qualms whatsoever about homosexuals serving.  It's not like men/women serving together is a flawless operation.  heterosexual relationships cause more issues at the unit level than almost any other one issue as far as I'm concerned.  Chances are, the only issue would be with anti-gays.

[Spike]

Wow 4 pages.  This is awesome.

The bottom line; we all make decisions and have to be able to justify to ourselves the outcome of those decisions.  Honestly, after reading some of these posts and going back over mine I came to the conclusion that I don't really care about this guy or if he lies.  It does not affect me in any way.

He will live with his decisions, and may one day have to justify those decisions to persons in power. 

I will say that lying about health issues is somewhat more serious than lying about someones haircut.  More serious in regard to the persons own health, and possibly those around him.  Again though it has no affect on me, so I will take the stance that I do not care what he does.

I wish him the best of luck in what ever he decides to do in life. 

 

[Spike]

I wonder how many people here would be okay with a potential military member lying or omitting  because they were homosexual, as opposed to asthmatic?

Major Lord

No issues here.  In fact, I wouldn't care if he/she were open about it.  I have no qualms whatsoever about homosexuals serving.  It's not like men/women serving together is a flawless operation.  heterosexual relationships cause more issues at the unit level than almost any other one issue as far as I'm concerned.  Chances are, the only issue would be with anti-gays.

There would be other issues that would come up as well.

Honestly, I could care less too.  However the moment the gay rights activists start patrolling the bases and posts demanding "gay friendly" social clubs etc is when the "homosexual open service experiment" will have to end. 

Will heterosexual members be allowed to request heterosexual battle buddies?  The initial integration will be far worse than what happened during the black integration during the late 40's and early 50's. 

[Irishrenegade]

I wish him the best of luck in what ever he decides to do in life. 

Thank you. I plan on going to a pulmonoligist to get tests done. If I can get a waiver then I will. If I can't then I can die knowing I tried LEGALLY without lying and I gave it my all 

[N Harmon]

Thank you. I plan on going to a pulmonoligist to get tests done. If I can get a waiver then I will. If I can't then I can die knowing I tried LEGALLY without lying and I gave it my all 

Good for you!

[Майор Хаткевич]

However the moment the gay rightsactivists start patrolling the bases and posts demanding "gay friendly"social clubs etc is when the "homosexual open service experiment" willhave to end.

What exactly are we talking about here? Because I've been to a "gay" bar, and there really wasn't that much of a difference from a "normal" bar besides the sexual preference of most patrons.

Will heterosexual members be allowed to request heterosexual battlebuddies?

That in my opinion is what DOESN'T need to happen. The main goal of openly gay service is to stop the expulsion of professional military personnel simply based on their sexuality. The other goals include "Don't Ask, Don't Care"

[Spike]

However the moment the gay rightsactivists start patrolling the bases and posts demanding "gay friendly"social clubs etc is when the "homosexual open service experiment" willhave to end.

What exactly are we talking about here? Because I've been to a "gay" bar, and there really wasn't that much of a difference from a "normal" bar besides the sexual preference of most patrons.

Will heterosexual members be allowed to request heterosexual battlebuddies?

That in my opinion is what DOESN'T need to happen. The main goal of openly gay service is to stop the expulsion of professional military personnel simply based on their sexuality. The other goals include "Don't Ask, Don't Care"

Well, I guess you have not been to a "real gay bar" before. 

No one was being expelled from the services for being gay.  They were being discharged for making their sexual orientation known.  "Don't ask, Don't tell", was a fix to a much larger problem at the time.  If we allow homosexuals to openly serve, can I have my heterosexual parades and "straight pride" stickers and wear my "I'm Straight, I love it" shirt??

What will be the line that will be crossed when homosexuals serve?  How many cases of assault will be brought to trial by straight soldiers against homosexual soldiers coming on to them?

I am all for gays serving, but we do not need the circus that is seen in civilian life to follow them into military life.   

We will not get into a homosexual debate here, because it will only get this thread locked.  If you want we can take it to PM. 

[Flying Pig]

These are the discussions I like.  I was never in the military, but let me tell you how this will work. 

Spend 8 years in the infantry and then come back and tell me "your opinion".  Thats the problem with the issue is that we have a bunch of people who have never served attempting to use the military to advance their agenda.
The integration of blacks in the military has NOTHING to do with and NOTHING in common with integrating gays into the military.  Integrating people on a "sexual level" delves into areas far beyond anything related to segregation of a race.

If you have served and your good with it, then you opinion has merit.  But if the closest you have ever come to the military is that your family members were in, or you spent time in CAP, save it.  And that really goes for both sides of the argument.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First of all, it's not an automatic DQ from the ANG.  Many ANG units do their own pre-enlistment physicals and don't send their recruits to MEPS.  They do have to follow the same standards, but some interpret those standards in different ways.  It's not automatic, but it is likely that if you still need an inhaler for asthma that you will be DQ'd.

I really, really doubt that a DD would come out of such a situation.  A DD is usually given for things that would be a felony in civilian life, and usually has prison time.  However, you could get a Fraudulent Enlistment, and that is not a good thing at all.  A better possibility in that case would be an uncharacterized Entry Level Separation, but there's no guarantees on that one.

However, even if you get an ELS from BMT, since you would be Guard, the final discharging authority rests with your State Military Department.  You would get a DD214 releasing you from active duty, but your final "paper" is the NGB22.  Usually the State authorities will follow the recommendation of DOD, but not always.  I've seen ELS get both General and Honorable Conditions discharges, but if you get an FE the chances are very good you'll get bad paper from the Guard.

Moral of the story: whether or not you go to MEPS or your ANG unit does its own physicals, BE HONEST.  Don't fudge anything.  Do you want to be looking over your shoulder for your entire hitch?

Believe me, it's a lot better to get a "we can't use you" from the Guard for being honest than the other alternatives.  At least you would have tried and tried honestly.

And, as has been pointed out, there are other avenues of service.

CAP (of course)
State Guard (if your state has one)
U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary
U.S. Navy Sea Cadets
U.S. Army Cadets

None of those get paid (except for State Guards under certain circumstances), but service isn't necessarily about monetary benefits.

(And I agree...this isn't the place for the DADT debate)

[Spike]

Spend 8 years in the infantry and then come back and tell me "your opinion".  Thats the problem with the issue is that we have a bunch of people who have never served attempting to use the military to advance their agenda.
The integration of blacks in the military has NOTHING to do with and NOTHING in common with integrating gays into the military.  Integrating people on a "sexual level" delves into areas far beyond anything related to segregation of a race.

Wow.  OK.  I grew up with both my Parents serving.  My Mother was an Army Colonel before she retired and my Father was an Air Force Lt Col before he retired (made for some good laughs).  I spent most of my life moving from one Post/ Base to another.  I enlisted in the Army National Guard, went to a State University did ROTC and have since then spent four years Active Duty and am on my fourth year in the Reserve.  I have one Daughter and a Son (twins), and take my family to see my Parents who live outside of Fort Lewis.  Dad and Mom were around for "don't ask, don't tell", I am going to be around to see firsthand the what happens when they get rid of it.

Do I have to spend time in the Infantry to give you my opinion?  Really....the Infantry?  That is not the only Combat Branch the Army has.  To be honest, more non-infantry soldiers are doing infantry things since 2003. 

I am contemplating on jumping over to the Air Force Reserve in the future.  Will my opinions be even more less valid then?

Since most of us did not serve during the desegregation of the Armed Forces, we can only base our opinions off of those who did and what we read (not wikipedia by the way!).

I have no agenda.  Like I have said in other posts, I could give a rats ass what happens.  I am only interested in seeing the results of other peoples agendas (Congress, President, SECDEF etc.)  What I wrote are the most likely things to happen based on what I have witnessed when the Boy Scouts toyed with the idea of letting openly gay men lead Boy Scout groups. 

[heliodoc]

Congratulations on the officer route, Spike

AND thank you and your parents for the service

Now how about that Infantry,huh?

The AF  doesn't have to really worry about that cuz the Army and Marines got that ground thang pretty well sewed up as far as ground operations. Right, it is not the only combat branch, but its the largest, and because of the field conditions and whaaaaaaaatanot, i can see where Flying Pig is coming from in his experiences.  No your opinions won't be less valid, but you will see ans a young officer......things will NOT always go your way, your beliefs, your "standards."

Oh and the Don't ask, Don't tell...that's  above even your pay grade

As a former E6 (SSG) type...I see and witnessed plenty-o-stoooopid decisions coming from the officer ranks

That DADT stuff originated well above any of us writing threads on CAPTalk

CAPers ..do not like the decisions in the RM...write your Congressperson  (how that for political correctness?)  "cuz the political correctness types, Congress, religious types, and some in the RM buckled to the pressures of today's modern society

Now 15-16 years later....we are going to WASTE taxpayers time and MONEY to right a decision from a former administration.

Were we not talking about health issues and enlistment at the MEPS anyway?  WOW........ let's STICK with asthma and what not 

CAPTAlk....where a stellar derail is only moments away!!

[Stonewall]

Many ANG units do their own pre-enlistment physicals and don't send their recruits to MEPS.

Excellent point!  This can good and bad.

The two ANG units I've been in, WV and GA, have both conducted their own entrance exams.  From having done two MEPS exams and two ANG exams, I can tell you the ones at MEPS are more thorough than any physical I've ever been to.  The Air Guard medical squadrons probably have a "take care of our own" mentality, even though you aren't actually in yet.  You can bet that when the unit needs bodies, the medical exam at the ANG unit will be somewhat casual.

[Irishrenegade]

Many ANG units do their own pre-enlistment physicals and don't send their recruits to MEPS.

Excellent point!  This can good and bad.

The two ANG units I've been in, WV and GA, have both conducted their own entrance exams.  From having done two MEPS exams and two ANG exams, I can tell you the ones at MEPS are more thorough than any physical I've ever been to.  The Air Guard medical squadrons probably have a "take care of our own" mentality, even though you aren't actually in yet.  You can bet that when the unit needs bodies, the medical exam at the ANG unit will be somewhat casual.

That is realllllly interesting...so does this mean that someone could go to ANG before a recruiter. For instance, I go to the Oklahoma ANG base at Will Rogers for meetings and some of the members are actually guardsmen...would I go to them first? or go to the recruiter first? Either way I still want to take the tests because I have not had a Dr. Visit/Physical in years! prob not since 03-04 when i was in HS!

[PHall]

First of all, it's not an automatic DQ from the ANG.  Many ANG units do their own pre-enlistment physicals and don't send their recruits to MEPS.  They do have to follow the same standards, but some interpret those standards in different ways.  It's not automatic, but it is likely that if you still need an inhaler for asthma that you will be DQ'd.

I really, really doubt that a DD would come out of such a situation.  A DD is usually given for things that would be a felony in civilian life, and usually has prison time.  However, you could get a Fraudulent Enlistment, and that is not a good thing at all.  A better possibility in that case would be an uncharacterized Entry Level Separation, but there's no guarantees on that one.

However, even if you get an ELS from BMT, since you would be Guard, the final discharging authority rests with your State Military Department.  You would get a DD214 releasing you from active duty, but your final "paper" is the NGB22.  Usually the State authorities will follow the recommendation of DOD, but not always.  I've seen ELS get both General and Honorable Conditions discharges, but if you get an FE the chances are very good you'll get bad paper from the Guard.

Moral of the story: whether or not you go to MEPS or your ANG unit does its own physicals, BE HONEST.  Don't fudge anything.  Do you want to be looking over your shoulder for your entire hitch?

Believe me, it's a lot better to get a "we can't use you" from the Guard for being honest than the other alternatives.  At least you would have tried and tried honestly.

And, as has been pointed out, there are other avenues of service.

CAP (of course)
State Guard (if your state has one)
U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary
U.S. Navy Sea Cadets
U.S. Army Cadets

None of those get paid (except for State Guards under certain circumstances), but service isn't necessarily about monetary benefits.

(And I agree...this isn't the place for the DADT debate)

Uhh, which ANG units don't send their people to MEPS? You can not go to Lackland without going through a MEPS first. MEPS is how you enter the system.

Yeah, many ANG units do screening physicals before they send somebody to MEPS. But that's just to avoid wasting people's time at MEPS.

Now physicals for Prior Service folk who are entering the Air Guard, different story. You don't need to go to MEPS if the unit can do the physical.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Yes, you can go to Lackland as NPS with the ANG without going to MEPS.

I don't know how many units are doing so now, or if the other reserve components do it.

Irishrenegade: Just talk to a recruiter.  Don't waste time dancing around the issue.

[Irishrenegade]

Yes, you can go to Lackland as NPS with the ANG without going to MEPS.

I don't know how many units are doing so now, or if the other reserve components do it.

Irishrenegade: Just talk to a recruiter.  Don't waste time dancing around the issue.

I dont want to dance around...I have two left feet

no but seriously that confused the hell out of me so Im just going to forget about what those two are talking about and just do my tests and go to the recruiter