Military Service Question to everyone...

[Irishrenegade]

So lets just say I have a friend who has asthma. He has had it all his life but has played hockey, lacrosse and football. He is athletic and runs everyday without much trouble at all. He gets on a treadmill everyday and can run for a good 2-3 miles without stopping for air. He gets winded just like anyone would but his asthma is not as bad as it used to be.

Now onto my question if you have not already gotten where im going with this...Because my friend has asthma (documented after the age of 13) he is obviously an automatic DQ for the Air National Guard (or any branch for that matter). Now should he/could he potentially leave that part out of the recruitment and see if HE CAN MAKE IT TO MEPS SO THE DOCTOR CAN DECIDE??  THIS WAS ALSO EDITED BECAUSE IT OBVIOUSLY WAS NOT CLEAR ENOUGH...I WOULD NEVER LIE TO A DOCTOR AND ALSO YOU CANT BECAUSE THEY WILL FIND OUT

I mean think about it...there are olympic athletes with asthma who have won gold metals...and my friend cant do the one thing he has wanted to do his whole life??? It really is something he is very very very passionate about but he is worried he will be Dishonorable Discharged if he does make it past recruit and MEPS if they find out past those stages...

Any thoughts??

ADDED NOTE: This is also a situation I am In...yes i did edit this in after all the crap below me because I have seemed to offend some on here and I would like to apologize for not being clearer with my post above...

ALSO ANOTHER DISCLAMER: I WOULD NEVER EVER EVER EVER LIE!!!!!!! SO GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEAD RIGHT NOW....I HAVE BEEN TO RECRUITERS BEFORE AND ALWAYS TOLD THE TRUTH ABOUT MY CONDITION SO DONT TAKE ME AS AN ASS WHO DOES LIES BECAUSE WHEN I PUT ON THAT CAP UNIFORM IM [darn] PROUD OF IT AND I REPRESENT WITH HONOR!!!!!!!

[PA Guy]

Can you say fraudulent enlistment with resulting discharge.

[AirAux]

As gallant as your friend's ambition/intention may be, there are good reasons why the reg's are as they are.  That said, perhaps he could apply for a waiver?  If not, I would certainly advise him not to lie on his application.  Dishonorable discharge would be well deserved if he obtains enlistment through fraudulent statements.  Can you imagine What the gas chamber will do to your buddy during basic??

[cap235629]

have him be honest with the recruiters. If he lies his fears WILL come true if it is disvovered at a later date. Talking to ALL branches may shake loose a waiver. The worst they can say is no. If no waiver is obtainable, there are many other ways to serve, CAP for instance!

[Irishrenegade]

Yes that is understandable BUT my friend is one that hates being told that he cannot do something. He cannot even get to MEPS for crying out loud...I say let him try to pass a physical. At least let him say he tried instead of being run out with his tail between his legs.

He also told me that a recruiter told him that he could get to boot camp and if during boot camp he gets caught then he gets out no fault. And if he does pass boot camp and graduate later on down the road go to the Doc and say hey doc last few times i went running i started to have weird feelings in my chest...what is going on? (pretty much play dumb)

Same recruiter also stated that the whole dishonerable discharge is a scare tactic to get ppl from doing this action and that a Dishonerable discharge rarely occurs in these situations.


IDK...I have asked ppl myself and have gotten answers like this and I have gotten answers like yours PA Guy...

[Flying Pig]

If he has been documented since age 13, they will find out.  He may not get a dishonorable, but he will get at least a Medical or OTH.
He can go to MEPS and ask to be checked out.  I knew people in the military who had asthma as kids and were in the military with no issues.  Maybe there is documentation he can get from his current doctor indicating that its no longer an issue.
Being an former Infantry Platoon Sgt I can tell you your friend may be great at home, on a treadmill running 3 miles, but what about humping 20+ miles in the heat, dirt, and to the point of sheer physical exhaustion with 45lbs on his back?  There are days running JUST 3 miles would have been a godsend.
Doesnt look like your buddy is looking to be a grunt, but thats my theory. 

The military has several "unfair" requirements.  I have 8 yrs prior military service, I am a commercial/instrument rated fixed wing and helicopter pilot working in the industry and was denied for the Army WOC aviator program because at the ripe old age of 35, I am to old.  However, I swim 2000-3000yrds per week, do P90X and could probably out PT most people on active duty.  But thems is  the breaks.  I realize its not about PT scores, but more to do with retirement age, but it still sucks.  When I was in I saw Marines discharged for being "fat" but in reality these guys were muscle bound weight lifters that were built like tanks without an ounce of fat on them.

Ultimately what your friend decides to do is on him. However, the issue about the gas chamber is going to be a reality.  And from what I recall, there wasnt a medic standing by just in case someone may have lied about having asthma.  That could be a real show stopper.

[Irishrenegade]

Thank you for your input Flying Pig!!

With your concern about the humping it that long in the heat and other weather conditions...he was a rated Goalie in NYS playing for the AAA Jr. Adirondack Redwings (the JR team to the AHL Redwings...who are the farm team to the NHL Detroit Redwings) where they would do dryland practice in the freezing cold (horrible for asthma) running for miles and doing lots of other physical activities for 2 straight hours then gonig on-ice practice for another 2 hours...Had Division I scholarships offered to him but they were taken away when he got injured before signing to one...but still I would say that is pretty impressive for a kid with Asthma

ALSO!

The reg is...Documented asthma past 13th birthday. What if he said he had it when he was little and grew out of it (which is actually more or less a true statement because he is alot more physically active than he was when he was little)...he carries his inhaler on him as a just in case thing and does not actually use it ever.

Is that lying?? I would say that your telling them your history and it would be up to the doc at MEPS to decide.

[Flying Pig]

How old is he now?  The fact that he has no issues with it, but still carries an inhaler "just in case" is a little odd.  Meaning the fear is still there for some reason.  If I never used it and never needed it, I wouldnt carry it.  I dont carry around an epi shot just because I may have developed a bee sting allergy in the past couple of years.

Your friend needs to be straight up with the recruiter and let the recruiter handle the details.  I would say if he gets in, make sure he goes for a job that isnt going to be putting him in the field under harsh conditions.  Not that can EVER be gauranteed...EVER.

If your friend hates being told "No", hes really going to enjoy the military.

[lordmonar]

Can you say fraudulent enlistment with resulting discharge.

And add to that conspiracy charges to the Irishrenegade.

No...don't leave it out.  It is a crime to lie (knowing leave out information) on offical documents.

Sorry that he cannot serve his country in the armed forces...but there are other, legal, ways to serve.

[PA Guy]

Is that lying?? I would say that your telling them your history and it would be up to the doc at MEPS to decide.

In a word, yes.  The recruiter and the doc at MEPS look at the same regulation and the doc at MEPS can't ignore them. Oh by the way, the recruiter can tell your friend anything but when the s#$% hits the fan the recruiter will deny everything.

[Spike]

Yes.....tell him to lie to the recruiter, lie to the military, sign an enlistment contract fraudulently.  When discharging the liar, the military will contact the recruiter, pull up civilian medical files and do a "routine" investigation so that the VA does not have to pay for any benefits later on.

The recruiter will say "I never said such things", and all that will be left is your friends lies and signatures.  He will be charged and dismissed with a dishonorable discharge that will haunt him all his life.

The rules are there to not only protect the health of your friend, but those he will serve with.  Having an asthma attack in garrison is different than having one while you are part of a team that depends on you.

If I knew who your friend was I would start calling all the recruiting offices in the area to alert them to him and his possible fraud.  They would flag him and he would not even get a "hello" from any recruiter anywhere.

Come on.....you are a CAP member and are supposed to know the core values here.  The Air Force has the same values and moral system we do.  Why would you knowingly break that code??

[Irishrenegade]

Ok for those of you who have not figured it out that "friend" is me....


I never want to lie and I have been to a million recruiters and they all give me different answers but I always get the you cant even get to MEPS because you are inferior and can never be apart of this nations military...it blows and it hurts alot.

I know its more them protecting me and those I would serve with but s*** give me a freakin chance and if I cant hack it in boot camp then kick me out.

What makes it worse is having people come up to me saying they dont respect me when i say i cant go in without getting a chance to explain myself to them that I have a medical issue.

I have never lied to a recruiter and I will never and this was more of a getting others opinions on the issue. Spike this is directed at you...I know the core values and i would never lie!! I just want the opportunity to be looked at instead of being thrown out like i was yesterdays leftovers (had plenty of women already do that to me...i dont need anyone else doing it lolol)

OK im done ranting...im frustrated as heck now so im gonna relieve that stress with a 8 mile run...maybe more if I need it

[Flying Pig]

The issue is going to come up when your friend is in MOPP gear running for the qual, in the gas chamber, in the field, taking a PFT in August, etc. When he has an issue, he's short of breath and gasping, he's not going to say, "I don't know whats happening to me."  He's going to grab someone by the shirt and gasp, "I have asthma help me!"  because he will be dying and will need oxygen ASAP.  Field medics don't carry O2.
Again, if he's honest about his deal, and they let him in, then go for it.

[Irishrenegade]

and Id like to finish my side of this rant with one last thing...

thanks mom and dad for smoking your entire lives and quitting right before giving birth to me...

[Al Sayre]

One thing you  might consider is being re-evaluated by a different doctor.  I know of two or three people who were told they had "asthma" for most of their young lives, however when they got away from home in a different area, it almost magically went away.  It turned out that they had some specific plant allergies that manifested in athsma-like symptoms, and once they got away from the area where the plants were common, the problem was solved.  A complete check by an allergist or lung specialist might not be a bad idea.  If it turns out to be an allergy, then you can truthfully state that you don't have athsma.

[raivo]

Fraudulent enlistment is a very bad idea. There are signs all around MEPS advising you of this, and you will have to sign several forms affirming that you haven't knowingly concealed anything from your application. If something disqualifying comes up during your career, that you didn't know about (this happened to a friend of mine), then that's a different story. If they find out you knew about it and concealed it, after they've spent time and money you... hello, Leavenworth! Seriously, don't do it.

So here's what I suggest. Here's the USAF regulation governing recruiting: http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFRSI36-2001.pdf - I believe you want section 2.10. Follow the trail of regulations, until you find the specific rule covering asthma. If it's a permanent disqualifier that can't be waived... then, you're out of luck. (And to be honest, I suspect this is the case if you're getting the same answer from multiple recruiters.) IF it can be waived, talk to your recruiter again, and cite the regulation stating so, and tell him you would at least like to try.

If there's no way around it... as mentioned, there are many other ways to serve. There's always the CIA/NSA/FBI/DoJ as well as the DoD and its subdepartments (DISA, NRO, DSS, et al.)

[vmstan]

I had it figured out that your friend was you about 10 words into your initial posting.

You have asthma, it sucks, but you live with it. There a plenty of other jobs in police and government that you can do with it, being in the military is not one of them.

There is always CAP... although I would suggest you quit with the lies.

[Cecil DP]

You've had several good suggestions made to handle the situation

1. Don't lie to your recruiter. He will do his best to get you a waiver , and it will require your giving him and the doctors at MEPS a look at your medical records.

2. If he told you to lie, he should be reported to the Recruiting Bn Commander. He'll be out of the service in a flash.

3. It was mentioned that you may just have an allergy and been misdiagnosed. Have your physician investigate that.

4. If you get in without telling anyone about the asthma-(yes it's on the medical form  under have you ever had) you will be released from the service as a fraudulent enlistee. This is not a discharge, because of (the to be kind) omission, you never legally enlisted.

5. Try to enlist in a NG unit. If they want you they're easier to get the waiver from.

[Spike]

5. Try to enlist in a NG unit. If they want you they're easier to get the waiver from.

So are you saying NG is for those who would not make it on AD?        That is what it sounds like. 

All matters aside, I am sorry life is not being fair to you.  Life is not fair to anyone.  We all take our disappointments and misadventures the same way.  The "why me" question, followed by anger, then the brain begins thinking of ways to game the system that cheated us, finally we all accept the situation.

Finally,  be honest to us on here.  We all knew it was you when you said "friend".  We would have respected you more should you came to us with the truth. 

Now, with you admitting it was you, not your Friend, and all of us knowing your location, there may be some on here that now take matters into their own hands and contact the local recruiters.  I am sorry, but that is how public forums like this operate.

[Irishrenegade]

well my friend is also in my situation as well back in NY so it was a double take on the situation...as for people going to recruiters...thats odd because I NEVER ONCE SAID I would lie. I dont believe in lying at all and would never lie to a recruiter...


this forum got way out of hand. sorry

[flyboy53]

Be honest.

If the recruiter is doing his or her job, a physical pre-screening form is part of the initial interview and the medical issue should be disclosed then. Asthma is generally a medical disqualifier for the Air Force and there are two reasons why. (1.) Most Air Force bases involve flight operations or are in those areas where there is lots of dust that could aggravate the issue; and (2.) You never know when it will act up...stress, physical exertion, etc.

That said, the medical pre-screen is critical and this is why. Some branches of our military do not disqualify an individual for asthma. The one I remember the most from my times as a recruiter is the U.S. Navy. Therefore, I would ask him to check with other services first, disclose the issue, and let the recuiter take the lead.

Don't let it get to the point where an ANG recruiter has to do a medical consult and then have the MEPS disqualify him because that will disqualify him from everything.

If the recruiter takes the lead and does everything necessary before hand, your friend may end up wearing a different type of blue uniform. At least he's in, however, with a condition that was acceptable.

[flyboy53]

I just read the other posts...boy you guys are BRUTAL!!!! And some of that stuff was un-called for.

Give the guy some real advise...don't scare him.

[Spike]

I just read the other posts...boy you guys are BRUTAL!!!! And some of that stuff was uncalled for.

Give the guy some real advise...don't scare him.

Not trying to scare, just trying to inform of what could happen should he or anyone else not be honest about medical conditions when enlisting. 

He brought up the lying into play when he posted.  We are reacting. 

[cap235629]

I just read the other posts...boy you guys are BRUTAL!!!! And some of that stuff was uncalled for.

Give the guy some real advise...don't scare him.

Not trying to scare, just trying to inform of what could happen should he or anyone else not be honest about medical conditions when enlisting. 

He brought up the lying into play when he posted.  We are reacting.

YOU are reacting, WE (or at least I) knew exactly who and what we were talking about.  Take a breath and cut the new guy some slack.....

[Short Field]

Now should he/could he potentially leave that part out of the recruitment and see if HE CAN MAKE IT TO MEPS SO THE DOCTOR CAN DECIDE??  THIS WAS ALSO EDITED BECAUSE IT OBVIOUSLY WAS NOT CLEAR ENOUGH...I WOULD NEVER LIE TO A DOCTOR AND ALSO YOU CANT BECAUSE THEY WILL FIND OUT

No, he should not leave that part out of the recruitment as that is lying by omission.   Flyboy1 has the best recommendation - check out the Navy.  You may find it easier to transfer into another service later than to enlist into the other service to begin with.

[Flying Pig]

As an enlisted you don't "transfer" into another service.  You discharge out of one, and re-enlist into another. Thats requires going back to MEPS, and the whole 9 yards....I had to do it myself which is how I know.  Thats probably what you meant but just so theres no confusion with readers outta-the-know.

[flyboy53]

I don't know the kid, but I do commend them for wanting to serve their country. However, know the risks.  Failure to disclose a medical condition such as this does mean fraudlent enlistment: depending on when the condition is discovered.

Don't think that you can hide something, because, I can guarantee, it will come out during something as simple as an ENTNAC security check...especially if someone in your family is aware of the condition. Without going into detail, I can tell you that I saw that happen once.

You should also know that there are three big medical disqualifiers: asthma, dust and wool alergies.

[flyboy53]

As an enlisted you don't "transfer" into another service.  You discharge out of one, and re-enlist into another. Thats requires going back to MEPS, and the whole 9 yards....I had to do it myself which is how I know.  Thats probably what you meant but just so theres no confusion with readers outta-the-know.

You are partially correct. The original thread involved the Air National Guard and that's a conditional release and transfer under a state's Division of Military Affairs/National Guard/etc. In other cases, it may not be necessary to go back to MEPS if the physical and security clearance are still current. I don't remember those deadlines.

[Cecil DP]

5. Try to enlist in a NG unit. If they want you they're easier to get the waiver from.

So are you saying NG is for those who would not make it on AD?        That is what it sounds like. 


.

No, What I was saying is that a National Guard has different rules and the AG can override the Basic Training Command's decision to drop a soldier. BTW I was a member of the National Guard from 1984-1999, so your assignation is totally wrong.

[PA Guy]

Several things......

Waivers can be granted for asthma >13 y/o but it is rare.

The applicant must find a recruiter who is willing to work with them on the issue, this is vital. And a medical pre-screen should be done before ever setting foot in the MEPS door.

The applicant usually has to pay for a methacholine challenge test and an exercise induced pulmonary function test as well as a complete exam as part of the waiver request package.

The MEPS doc can't grant a waiver, they can only make a recommendation.  Waiver authority rests with the parent service not MEPS.

RC waivers are sometimes easier to get than AD waivers.

[Flying Pig]

As an enlisted you don't "transfer" into another service.  You discharge out of one, and re-enlist into another. Thats requires going back to MEPS, and the whole 9 yards....I had to do it myself which is how I know.  Thats probably what you meant but just so theres no confusion with readers outta-the-know.

You are partially correct. The original thread involved the Air National Guard and that's a conditional release and transfer under a state's Division of Military Affairs/National Guard/etc. In other cases, it may not be necessary to go back to MEPS if the physical and security clearance are still current. I don't remember those deadlines.

I went from active Marines to Reserves Army.  I stayed Infantry.  I had to do the ASVAB, MEPS, Pee in the cup, the whole deal.  This was in 1997.  Are you telling me that my recruiter may have just wanted to see me naked?  Because there was an after party also.

[SarDragon]

Why do you think the Navy is any easier on an asthmatic? They have environmental situations just as bad as the other services. We may not spend as much time in the mud, but the air quality on a ship, while not unhealthy for a normal person, can cause problems for asthmatics.

[flyboy53]

In response to both questions. I used to refer people to the Navy who admitted to as asthma because I learned from a Navy Recruiter (back in 1994) that that wasn't a disqualifying condition. They took them even though a waiver was required sometimes. One kid went into nuclear powered subs and was E-6 before the end of his first enlistment.

Reqarding the transfer between services. My favorite story occured back about 1984 when I went TDY to DINFOS at Fort Harrison, Ind. We had a kid show up with a mane of hair that rivaled the lion in the Wizard of Oz. He was a former Marine who worked as a probation officer in Detroit. He got orders, calling him to active duty as a Army Reserve Specialist (E-4). Go figure that one.

The Army leadership in the Company were ruthless with him at first, then sorry, then went out of their way to make sure he had all the appropriate uniforms. He left Ft. Harrison with a full issue. I wondered if he just went back to his probation duties.

[Stonewall]

**NOTE*** I did not read all of the responses so this is purely to the OP....

I am NOT saying go for it and "forget" to put down your medical history that may disqualify you from service.  However, I will tell you a few stories of close friends...one of whom shares my last name.

Former CAP Cadet Wayne:   Accepted to UF and attended Army ROTC there.  During a physical he admitted to some sort of skin disorder and he lost his ROTC scholarship.  They said he couldn't serve, period.  After two years of college without ROTC and a burning desire to serve, he went to a recruiter, DID NOT disclose his disqualifying skin disorder and enlisted.  He was a Cavalry Scout, made it through Special Forces and then got accepted to Warrant Officer Flight School.  He is now a CW-3 flying Kiowa Warriors.

Long time friend Patrick:   Served in the Marine Corps for 4 years and got out.  After 9/11 he wanted to serve again, but this time in Navy Special Warfare.  Unfortunately he is color blind and the job he wanted required good vision.  I won't tell you how, but he managed to acquire the color blind test booklet and memorized it.  He passed with flying colors.  After 8 years, 5 tours of combat, Military Freefall School, 18D medic school, numerous other schools, he is still serving with color blindness.

SSgt Sandy:  She decided after 9/11 that she wanted to serve.  At age 30 she went to a National Guard recruiter.  Knowing she had asthma all her life, but fully capable of running 5 miles and passing any PT test the Air Force could throw at her, she went for it and did not mention her "condition".  7 years later she is still serving without incident.  She is also on a regional disaster/WMD response team that requires her to use specialized respirators and chemical suits...still no issues.

SFC Paul:  As a 15 year old he was in a bad car accident.  He lost a kidney.  Not knowing whether or not it would disqualify him from military service, he simply didn't mention it.  When asked about the scar, he said it was a bad cut from when he fell on a fence.  No one asked any further questions.  Paul has served 16 years in the Infantry, graduated Ranger School and has served 3 combat tours in Iraq.  He has the Bronze Star with "V" device.

It's your decision.  It's a risk to take that could have major repercussions.  But as the British SAS say "Who dares wins".

[Flying Pig]

Live the dream.  Be a Deputy.

[Major Lord]

I suggest you consult with an expert in the field. What one Doc might call "Asthma" another might call a "respiratory allergy" and a clarification of the diagnosis might be helpful in the approach to the military. If you suffer from real asthma, and might require a rescue inhaler, steroids, epinephrine, etc to save you, you could be a tremendous liability to the folks with whom you serve. Please don't selfishly hide a real condition which could result in not just your death, but the death of your brothers in service.

If anyone of you remember the autobiography of Gordon Liddy, he suffered from terrible childhood asthma. He decided to run until he got better or died. It worked out reasonably well for him ( He also ate rats to get over his fear of them, which in my book makes him an honorary Cadet Survival School Merit Winner!)

As others have pointed out, there are lots of ways to serve. Law Enforcement, Emergency Medicine, Intelligence , Private Military Contractors ( Blackwater, etc.) and of course, the French Foreign Legion is also looking for people!

Major Lord

[N Harmon]

As someone who was disqualified from military service due to sports injury, I can empathize with the desire to withhold information. It's not easy to see one's aspirations go down the toilet because of something outside their control. But there will be other opportunities to serve your community and nation.

[flyboy53]

As someone who was disqualified from military service due to sports injury, I can empathize with the desire to withhold information. It's not easy to see one's aspirations go down the toilet because of something outside their control. But there will be other opportunities to serve your community and nation.

YES! Remember there is always the State Guard. Some of them are actually paid for their drills...

[Spike]

Stonewall.  Liars and cheaters are what you listed in your response?  They knowingly lied, one cheated etc. I don't care if they collectively create world peace, bad role models. Should we do bad to do good?     

edit-added the underlined

[Stonewall]

Stonewall.  Liars and cheaters are what you listed in your response?  They knowingly lied, one cheated etc.  I don't care if they collectively create world peace, bad role models.   

I'm not saying it was right.  I'm saying they weighed the risk against the outcome and all of them came out a "winner" in the end.  I think it's time the military stop denying potentially top notch candidates due to illnesses that have little to do with serving in the military.  We have amputees still serving; flying even.

Rather than saying "you have asthma, you can't serve", perhaps they should consider a battery of physical tests.  There are tons of non-combat jobs in the military.  If you're in a job that requires you to wear blues every day, I'm fairly certain you could do the job with one eye, a missing limb and half a lung.


When I was in the Army Guard we had this old Vietnam Vet who had 25 years in and was an E-5.  He did one thing, he drove a bus.  He couldn't run 2 miles to save his life.  He could barely walk.  For some reason they let him continue to serve.  And I was the only one that was okay with that.  Everyone else pointed, laughed and called him a [not so good large body part].  Why?  I'd rather him drive us to training on the bus than have a capable private do it. 

Why not let someone with asthma, one kidney or some stupid skin disorder serve? 

[Stonewall]

I'd also like to add that I have seen men without ailments, handicaps or asthma fall out from short 3 mile runs, 12 mile ruck marches and panic while wearing their gas masks.  I have personally had to counsel female NCOs who refused to run more than 1 1/2 miles during organized PT because "that's all I'm required to run in the Air Force".  These are people who are fully capable to serve, in a physical sense.  Yet somehow they fail to meet other standards that aren't assessed during a physical at MEPS.

Just pisses me off to see potentially good people be turned away as they allow "healthy" losers make better than average money, with top notch benefits, serve in the military simply because they were down on their luck with jobs or money.  Yet a patriot who has wanted to serve their life, is more than physically capable to do so, but turned down because they have a skin disorder that you can't even see or technically have asthma, yet can outrun some fat guy who doesn't have asthma. 


/rant

[Spike]

^ I agree 100% with you.  The DoD needs to change many things and allow those with disqualifying conditions (today) to serve.  I will walk with you to to Congress the day we can get it organized. 

However, until the changes come, we have to accept the fact that there are disqualifying factors that are disqualifying.  Perhaps one day the military will accept that everyone should have a chance to serve in some capacity, but today is not the day.  Very soon though, but we must wait.

I am all for mandatory service, and if a person does not meet combat standards then they are placed in other career fields.  Mailrooms, dining facilities, warehouses, chapels, service squadrons etc.

[Eclipse]

I have to imagine its part of the culture of "everyone has an equal shot at unpleasantness", but we all know the reality of life is that
a lot of state-side military personnel never do anything different day-to-day than any other office worker, and never will, even some of those aboard Navy ships and deployed abroad.

I also personally know plenty of reservists who did their BMT and never saw combat and put in less hours a year than moderately active CAP members.

And that doesn't even bring cyber security and UAV pilots into the conversation.

I think there are a lot of people who would be interested in the security, benefits and public service of military service, but found themselves unmotivated when they were young, and a "95%'er" when older, myself included.  I doubt I could be much value to a forward-deployed unit, but I could sure do network troubleshooting, process Tri-Care paperwork, or help at MEPS.  I'm sure not interested in doing that for free, though, as part of VSAF (I would however, consider it if allowed to do it as a "full" CAP member").

If you look around most bases, you'll see that just about any "baseline" job has gone to civilian contractors - mess halls, maintenance, etc.  Such is the way of the world, I guess.

As to people already in who get injured, as long as they can still do their job, or a job, they should not be farmed out to retirement.

[Stonewall]

I also personally know plenty of reservists who did their BMT and never saw combat and put in less hours a year than moderately active CAP members.

As a combat arms instructor I always start my training with a question, "has anyone not fired the M9/M4/M16 in the last 3 years".  Every_single_time someone, usualy 2 or 3, raise their hands.  When I ask how long has it been, I get answers ranging from 5 to 20 years.  Seriously, 20 years.  I had a female CMSgt about 3 months ago tell me she hadn't shot since basic training and then it was the .38 revolver.  Or so she said.  That right there confirms there are too many people in the military that serve so far from the potential of being near combat that most medical concerns are irrelevant in my opinion.  If you can serve 20 years and not fire a gun, you can serve 20 years with asthma.

[SarDragon]

I have to imagine its part of the culture of "everyone has an equal shot at unpleasantness", but we all know the reality of life is that
a lot of state-side military personnel never do anything different day-to-day than any other office worker, and never will, even some of those aboard Navy ships and deployed abroad.

Sorry, that doesn't flush at all. EVERYONE on a ship, regardless of rank or job assignment, is required to complete training that no regular office worker could imagine. Inability to satisfactorily complete that training can result in reassignment.

This training is related to shipboard damage control. You learn how to fight fires, use personal safety equipment, and other related skills.

[NCRblues]

Oh man the doom and gloom bunch were out in force on this one.

First off, when i went through basic their were 15 out of my flight that were on medical wavers, several of them were for asthma.

Second, someone said add conspiracy charges to the discharge...um can you site one conspiracy charge in the last....(ill make it real easy) 200 years that dealt with fail to alert meps or recruiters of medical conditions? i cant find a single one 

i really enjoy the self righteous people on here that act like they have never ever lied. Really get over yourself. Stop trying to scare the living &^$#* out of the kid and tell him this.

We as members who have gone through the military or wanted to advise you to give freely all the information that you can to your recruiter and at meps. BUT it is a free country (thanks to those that have served) and if you want to withhold information than you sir are free to do so. Done let anyone on this board tell you different (because no one here is an expert at everything like some claim to be  ) their is a weaver for almost everyting now Adas.

Don't believe me captalkers? How about the members of the army that are allowed in with felony's because of waivers (CNN and fox did a big story about that a couple years ago). Past gang affiliation? no problem...here's a waiver. Simple medical condition that can be control ed (IE asthma) no problem...welcome to 2010 old timers.

Now feel free to jump me my fellow cap members and experts of all things kinda sorta military but not really.

Oh BTW....simple question....how many of you work as recruiters now? or at meps now? How many of you are enlistment experts?.... probably none or very few but how about this question....How many of you are experts are finding regulations on google and reading them and demanding they be followed to the letter not the intent? close to all on this board i would have to say....

Good day folks....and feel free to bash me... makes me smile

PS. I didnt run spell check just for you sticklers on that

[Eclipse]

Sorry, that doesn't flush at all. EVERYONE on a ship, regardless of rank or job assignment, is required to complete training that no regular office worker could imagine. Inability to satisfactorily complete that training can result in reassignment.

Yeah, I know.  Doesn't change my point.  Splitting hairs on this is kinda the problem.

[SarDragon]

Sorry, that doesn't flush at all. EVERYONE on a ship, regardless of rank or job assignment, is required to complete training that no regular office worker could imagine. Inability to satisfactorily complete that training can result in reassignment.

Yeah, I know.  Doesn't change my point.  Splitting hairs on this is kinda the problem.

It's not splitting hairs at all.

I have to imagine its part of the culture of "everyone has an equal shot at unpleasantness", but we all know the reality of life is that
a lot of state-side military personnel never do anything different day-to-day than any other office worker, and never will, even some of those aboard Navy ships and deployed abroad.

It IS different. There's additional training and a foreign environment that your average office worker (term used very broadly) will never encounter.

[TACP]

their is a weaver for almost everyting now Adas.

You spelled 'everything' wrong. HA

Couldn't help myself...

[SarDragon]

He seems to not care about his poor writing skills, so I just ignore most of what he posts now. I can't be bothered to attempt translations.

[NCRblues]

Oh sardragon... we have done this through Pm but i guess ill just say it here.

I was diagnosed with a spelling disability when i was young. Now I know their is spell check, but sometimes it dosent fix everything. I seem not to care huh? Shall i post the Pm's about you telling me you appreciate me trying and you thank me for my inputs because active duty's inputs are sometimes a good idea? Or are we just going to stick with i don't read what he puts and be hypocritical? SAR, i have nothing against you, but what you put was out of line and a personal attack, and i take offense.....Has not people been banned from this site because of attacks as such.....HM.....

[raivo]

First off, when i went through basic their were 15 out of my flight that were on medical wavers, several of them were for asthma.

Which is why I pointed him in the general direction of where to get started on enlisting *legally*, through a waiver, rather than advising him to falsify his enlistment documents.

BUT it is a free country (thanks to those that have served) and if you want to withhold information than you sir are free to do so.

Yes. And if you get caught, then you're going to have to live with whatever consequences your court-martial decides on. (The maximum penalty under the UCMJ for fraudulent enlistment, by the way, is: "dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.") I realize that this is a "worst-case" scenario, however, it is not outside the realm of possibility.

How many of you are experts are finding regulations on google and reading them and demanding they be followed to the letter not the intent? close to all on this board i would have to say....

... have you read your signature lately?

[Eclipse]

How many of you are experts are finding regulations on google and reading them and demanding they be followed to the letter not the intent? close to all on this board i would have to say....

... have you read your signature lately?

PWN'ED!

[Irishrenegade]

^ I agree 100% with you.  The DoD needs to change many things and allow those with disqualifying conditions (today) to serve.  I will walk with you to to Congress the day we can get it organized. 

Let me know when your going cause ill be right there next to you!

However, until the changes come, we have to accept the fact that there are disqualifying factors that are disqualifying.  Perhaps one day the military will accept that everyone should have a chance to serve in some capacity, but today is not the day.  Very soon though, but we must wait.

I am all for mandatory service, and if a person does not meet combat standards then they are placed in other career fields.  Mailrooms, dining facilities, warehouses, chapels, service squadrons etc.

I also never said I wanted a combat role either...Granted do get me wrong...you offer me a job in a cockpit of an A-10 or F-35 you can have my soul 

Im really good with computers...hell put me behind a desk or in a hanger installing parts or even controlling a predator! lol I will try to get those tests and see if i can get a waiver...if not then I will continue with CAP and be a proud senior "officer" and help mold the cadets and give them the best experience of their lives! I dont like arguing people so if your going to please leave it off here cause we are all on the same "team" here.

Once again sorry to anyone who got offended by this thread/war I started...

[NCRblues]

Oh ravio and eclipse you caught me  How dare i want rules to be followed

Oh eclipse you might have to give a "cite" for your use of PWN'ED! on this board some of our more SENIOR members might need a translation...if they care to take the time

[wuzafuzz]

Irishrenegade:

You have been given some good advice in this thread.  Some, however, I wouldn't recommend. 

My 2 cents:  Don't lie.  I realize you said you wouldn't do so but I'm throwing it out there anyway.  The world is full of restrictions or limitations, especially for jobs with some "cool factor."  But know this: for most limits there are creative workarounds that are completely honest and legit.  Find a way to chase your goals without spending years wondering if deception will catch up with you.

Want to serve in the military?  Pursue those waivers.  Go ahead and shop around for the answer you want, if necessary.  If your perseverance doesn't pay off then you might consider a State Defense Force or a civilian role supporting the military.  Another option might be to analyze your motivations to see WHY you want to serve.  You may realize other careers or "hobby jobs" also meet your goals.  Want some adventure?  Check out full, part time, or volunteer public safety positions.  (Including CAP of course!)  Broaden your search a little and you may be pleasantly surprised by what you find.

[JC004]

...
The rules are there to not only protect the health of your friend, but those he will serve with.  Having an asthma attack in garrison is different than having one while you are part of a team that depends on you.
...

This is my position.  If the asthma gets someone else killed, that's a problem, isn't it?  I think it's that simple.  This shouldn't even be three pages.  If you endanger a mission and its people by trying to get past the rules here, that's an issue.

I have asthma and I wanted to join.  My thought process was as above, even if I was able to get around it and get in somehow.

There are plenty of ways to serve.  If you want to serve the military, try doing it as a DoD civilian so you don't get anybody dead.

[SarDragon]

Oh sardragon... we have done this through Pm but i guess ill just say it here.

You're right. I was out of line, and I apologize. I should have looked at our PMs before adding my commentary.

[lordmonar]

I know its more them protecting me and those I would serve with but s*** give me a freakin chance and if I cant hack it in boot camp then kick me out.

What...have the military spend hard money on you....pay for your clothing, food, and some spending cash.  Take up the time of the TI's and a slot someone else could have had because we need to take a chance on you?

What happens if you make it through basic....then go to techschool and on to your first assignment.  After a year of training and just when you start pulling your own weight you get deployed to somewhere nasty and boom! Your asthma kicks in!

Short term we now have to replace you in the field.  Then you spend the next year or so in and out of the hospital trying to fix you.  Once you are released from AD now they have to replace you!

Sure you and 100 other guys can hack it and go on to be Olympic champions or NFL stars.......but the other 9900 of you can't.  The military does not need to give you chance to serve.....

What makes it worse is having people come up to me saying they don't respect me when i say i cant go in without getting a chance to explain myself to them that I have a medical issue.

Who cares what people think!  I served 22 years in the USAF.  I don't care less about people who have or have not served.  If you want to serve your country there are many ways to do it.  Become a teacher, a cop, a fireman.  Join Americorps or the Peace Corps.  Volunteer with the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Boys/Girls Club.....CAP.

I have never lied to a recruiter and I will never and this was more of a getting others opinions on the issue. Spike this is directed at you...I know the core values and i would never lie!! I just want the opportunity to be looked at instead of being thrown out like i was yesterdays leftovers (had plenty of women already do that to me...i don't need anyone else doing it lolol)

Wanted to serve but can't due to asthma is not yesterday's leftovers.  Nor is serving in the military move you up the social scale one bit.  I know tonnes of scumbags in the military who I would not trust with a pea shooter let alone an M-4.  Being in the military does not make you man......being a man makes you one.

[Stonewall]

What...have the military spend hard money on you....pay for your clothing, food, and some spending cash.  Take up the time of the TI's and a slot someone else could have had because we need to take a chance on you?

Yes, because the TIs have a hard enough time dealing with the whiners and non-hackers that are "healthy". 

What happens if you make it through basic....then go to techschool and on to your first assignment.  After a year of training and just when you start pulling your own weight you get deployed to somewhere nasty and boom! Your asthma kicks in!

Or, you're completely healthy and you get knocked up.  Because that never happens? 

Short term we now have to replace you in the field.  Then you spend the next year or so in and out of the hospital trying to fix you.  Once you are released from AD now they have to replace you!

Happens all the time with "healthy" people who simply can't hack the military and get out on a Chapter 11 or some other premise.  The fact is, the military takes a chance with EVERY recruit.  Even in the [darn] Guard we've got people dropping left and right, not finishing their contract and STILL keeping half of their $20K bonus.

I know tons of military members currently serving on active duty who have asthma, sleep apnea, are obese, have lots of surgeries that would otherwise disqualify someone from service, yet they still get to stay in and soak up the benefits.  They're just as American as the guy with asthma tyring to join.  Again, I think there needs to be a battery of tests and physical standards that one needs to accomplish.  If he/she can do that, let them serve.  Even provide a "special contract" that says if you fall out or screw up along the way in the first 2 years, you're out, no questions asked, no benefits.

[davedove]

I won't disagree with you Stonewall, but I'm sure you realize the military (or the government at large for that manner) doesn't think that way.  They thrive on general rules and have a hard time considering exceptions.

[Major Lord]

I wonder how many people here would be okay with a potential military member lying or omitting  because they were homosexual, as opposed to asthmatic?

Major Lord

[Irishrenegade]

I wonder how many people here would be okay with a potential military member lying or omitting  because they were homosexual, as opposed to asthmatic?

Major Lord

That is a sticky topic but at the same time...who gives a flying hoot if your homosexual...if you can protect the guy/girl next to you than I will certainly entrust you with my life...granted I may not share the same ideals as that person but if they wear that flag on their right shoulder as I am then we have a duty to the country. When you put on that uniform your personal issues should go out out the window.

[heliodoc]

^^^
Agree with renegade, Stonewall, ncrblues,etc etc etc etc

How about CAP cleanin its own house before jumpin on the military recruits for lying on initial entry?

Think CAP is above board on all things ethical?  Maybe CAP need a real CAP Boot Camp for volunteers...can cut the CAP mustard? Lied on your app?  Said too many ummms in your presentations? Didn't fill out your form 104's and 109's right?  Didn't check the air pressure on a CAP van?

I have seen some of this in RM and CAP also.   CAP needs to clean up its own program before even leveling assessments against the RM for its issues.  Some of the missions in the RM require plenty different training standards and equating the REMF MOS's as "no different than civilian office workers" is baloney. Maybe some of us could and would say there PLENTY of dead weight in ALLLLLLL levels in CAP.  How is CAP NHQ and volunteer personnel any different.  Maybe there ought to  be new standards to be on the CAP NEC BoG...how a about a 3 mile run with a 50 lb ruck on those folks?  How about a night land nav with rain?  How about new service requirements for ALL CAP levels..   The ICS  reqs were only the beginning!!  Now its time to stop making new online tests and get out in the field.

Screw up in CAP?  You are out!!!

Oh by the way CAPTalkers, continue....like you do  sorta done with my rant....... heheheehe

[Stonewall]

I wonder how many people here would be okay with a potential military member lying or omitting  because they were homosexual, as opposed to asthmatic?

Major Lord

No issues here.  In fact, I wouldn't care if he/she were open about it.  I have no qualms whatsoever about homosexuals serving.  It's not like men/women serving together is a flawless operation.  heterosexual relationships cause more issues at the unit level than almost any other one issue as far as I'm concerned.  Chances are, the only issue would be with anti-gays.

[Spike]

Wow 4 pages.  This is awesome.

The bottom line; we all make decisions and have to be able to justify to ourselves the outcome of those decisions.  Honestly, after reading some of these posts and going back over mine I came to the conclusion that I don't really care about this guy or if he lies.  It does not affect me in any way.

He will live with his decisions, and may one day have to justify those decisions to persons in power. 

I will say that lying about health issues is somewhat more serious than lying about someones haircut.  More serious in regard to the persons own health, and possibly those around him.  Again though it has no affect on me, so I will take the stance that I do not care what he does.

I wish him the best of luck in what ever he decides to do in life. 

 

[Spike]

I wonder how many people here would be okay with a potential military member lying or omitting  because they were homosexual, as opposed to asthmatic?

Major Lord

No issues here.  In fact, I wouldn't care if he/she were open about it.  I have no qualms whatsoever about homosexuals serving.  It's not like men/women serving together is a flawless operation.  heterosexual relationships cause more issues at the unit level than almost any other one issue as far as I'm concerned.  Chances are, the only issue would be with anti-gays.

There would be other issues that would come up as well.

Honestly, I could care less too.  However the moment the gay rights activists start patrolling the bases and posts demanding "gay friendly" social clubs etc is when the "homosexual open service experiment" will have to end. 

Will heterosexual members be allowed to request heterosexual battle buddies?  The initial integration will be far worse than what happened during the black integration during the late 40's and early 50's. 

[Irishrenegade]

I wish him the best of luck in what ever he decides to do in life. 

Thank you. I plan on going to a pulmonoligist to get tests done. If I can get a waiver then I will. If I can't then I can die knowing I tried LEGALLY without lying and I gave it my all 

[N Harmon]

Thank you. I plan on going to a pulmonoligist to get tests done. If I can get a waiver then I will. If I can't then I can die knowing I tried LEGALLY without lying and I gave it my all 

Good for you!

[Майор Хаткевич]

However the moment the gay rightsactivists start patrolling the bases and posts demanding "gay friendly"social clubs etc is when the "homosexual open service experiment" willhave to end.

What exactly are we talking about here? Because I've been to a "gay" bar, and there really wasn't that much of a difference from a "normal" bar besides the sexual preference of most patrons.

Will heterosexual members be allowed to request heterosexual battlebuddies?

That in my opinion is what DOESN'T need to happen. The main goal of openly gay service is to stop the expulsion of professional military personnel simply based on their sexuality. The other goals include "Don't Ask, Don't Care"

[Spike]

However the moment the gay rightsactivists start patrolling the bases and posts demanding "gay friendly"social clubs etc is when the "homosexual open service experiment" willhave to end.

What exactly are we talking about here? Because I've been to a "gay" bar, and there really wasn't that much of a difference from a "normal" bar besides the sexual preference of most patrons.

Will heterosexual members be allowed to request heterosexual battlebuddies?

That in my opinion is what DOESN'T need to happen. The main goal of openly gay service is to stop the expulsion of professional military personnel simply based on their sexuality. The other goals include "Don't Ask, Don't Care"

Well, I guess you have not been to a "real gay bar" before. 

No one was being expelled from the services for being gay.  They were being discharged for making their sexual orientation known.  "Don't ask, Don't tell", was a fix to a much larger problem at the time.  If we allow homosexuals to openly serve, can I have my heterosexual parades and "straight pride" stickers and wear my "I'm Straight, I love it" shirt??

What will be the line that will be crossed when homosexuals serve?  How many cases of assault will be brought to trial by straight soldiers against homosexual soldiers coming on to them?

I am all for gays serving, but we do not need the circus that is seen in civilian life to follow them into military life.   

We will not get into a homosexual debate here, because it will only get this thread locked.  If you want we can take it to PM. 

[Flying Pig]

These are the discussions I like.  I was never in the military, but let me tell you how this will work. 

Spend 8 years in the infantry and then come back and tell me "your opinion".  Thats the problem with the issue is that we have a bunch of people who have never served attempting to use the military to advance their agenda.
The integration of blacks in the military has NOTHING to do with and NOTHING in common with integrating gays into the military.  Integrating people on a "sexual level" delves into areas far beyond anything related to segregation of a race.

If you have served and your good with it, then you opinion has merit.  But if the closest you have ever come to the military is that your family members were in, or you spent time in CAP, save it.  And that really goes for both sides of the argument.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First of all, it's not an automatic DQ from the ANG.  Many ANG units do their own pre-enlistment physicals and don't send their recruits to MEPS.  They do have to follow the same standards, but some interpret those standards in different ways.  It's not automatic, but it is likely that if you still need an inhaler for asthma that you will be DQ'd.

I really, really doubt that a DD would come out of such a situation.  A DD is usually given for things that would be a felony in civilian life, and usually has prison time.  However, you could get a Fraudulent Enlistment, and that is not a good thing at all.  A better possibility in that case would be an uncharacterized Entry Level Separation, but there's no guarantees on that one.

However, even if you get an ELS from BMT, since you would be Guard, the final discharging authority rests with your State Military Department.  You would get a DD214 releasing you from active duty, but your final "paper" is the NGB22.  Usually the State authorities will follow the recommendation of DOD, but not always.  I've seen ELS get both General and Honorable Conditions discharges, but if you get an FE the chances are very good you'll get bad paper from the Guard.

Moral of the story: whether or not you go to MEPS or your ANG unit does its own physicals, BE HONEST.  Don't fudge anything.  Do you want to be looking over your shoulder for your entire hitch?

Believe me, it's a lot better to get a "we can't use you" from the Guard for being honest than the other alternatives.  At least you would have tried and tried honestly.

And, as has been pointed out, there are other avenues of service.

CAP (of course)
State Guard (if your state has one)
U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary
U.S. Navy Sea Cadets
U.S. Army Cadets

None of those get paid (except for State Guards under certain circumstances), but service isn't necessarily about monetary benefits.

(And I agree...this isn't the place for the DADT debate)

[Spike]

Spend 8 years in the infantry and then come back and tell me "your opinion".  Thats the problem with the issue is that we have a bunch of people who have never served attempting to use the military to advance their agenda.
The integration of blacks in the military has NOTHING to do with and NOTHING in common with integrating gays into the military.  Integrating people on a "sexual level" delves into areas far beyond anything related to segregation of a race.

Wow.  OK.  I grew up with both my Parents serving.  My Mother was an Army Colonel before she retired and my Father was an Air Force Lt Col before he retired (made for some good laughs).  I spent most of my life moving from one Post/ Base to another.  I enlisted in the Army National Guard, went to a State University did ROTC and have since then spent four years Active Duty and am on my fourth year in the Reserve.  I have one Daughter and a Son (twins), and take my family to see my Parents who live outside of Fort Lewis.  Dad and Mom were around for "don't ask, don't tell", I am going to be around to see firsthand the what happens when they get rid of it.

Do I have to spend time in the Infantry to give you my opinion?  Really....the Infantry?  That is not the only Combat Branch the Army has.  To be honest, more non-infantry soldiers are doing infantry things since 2003. 

I am contemplating on jumping over to the Air Force Reserve in the future.  Will my opinions be even more less valid then?

Since most of us did not serve during the desegregation of the Armed Forces, we can only base our opinions off of those who did and what we read (not wikipedia by the way!).

I have no agenda.  Like I have said in other posts, I could give a rats ass what happens.  I am only interested in seeing the results of other peoples agendas (Congress, President, SECDEF etc.)  What I wrote are the most likely things to happen based on what I have witnessed when the Boy Scouts toyed with the idea of letting openly gay men lead Boy Scout groups. 

[heliodoc]

Congratulations on the officer route, Spike

AND thank you and your parents for the service

Now how about that Infantry,huh?

The AF  doesn't have to really worry about that cuz the Army and Marines got that ground thang pretty well sewed up as far as ground operations. Right, it is not the only combat branch, but its the largest, and because of the field conditions and whaaaaaaaatanot, i can see where Flying Pig is coming from in his experiences.  No your opinions won't be less valid, but you will see ans a young officer......things will NOT always go your way, your beliefs, your "standards."

Oh and the Don't ask, Don't tell...that's  above even your pay grade

As a former E6 (SSG) type...I see and witnessed plenty-o-stoooopid decisions coming from the officer ranks

That DADT stuff originated well above any of us writing threads on CAPTalk

CAPers ..do not like the decisions in the RM...write your Congressperson  (how that for political correctness?)  "cuz the political correctness types, Congress, religious types, and some in the RM buckled to the pressures of today's modern society

Now 15-16 years later....we are going to WASTE taxpayers time and MONEY to right a decision from a former administration.

Were we not talking about health issues and enlistment at the MEPS anyway?  WOW........ let's STICK with asthma and what not 

CAPTAlk....where a stellar derail is only moments away!!

[Stonewall]

Many ANG units do their own pre-enlistment physicals and don't send their recruits to MEPS.

Excellent point!  This can good and bad.

The two ANG units I've been in, WV and GA, have both conducted their own entrance exams.  From having done two MEPS exams and two ANG exams, I can tell you the ones at MEPS are more thorough than any physical I've ever been to.  The Air Guard medical squadrons probably have a "take care of our own" mentality, even though you aren't actually in yet.  You can bet that when the unit needs bodies, the medical exam at the ANG unit will be somewhat casual.

[Irishrenegade]

Many ANG units do their own pre-enlistment physicals and don't send their recruits to MEPS.

Excellent point!  This can good and bad.

The two ANG units I've been in, WV and GA, have both conducted their own entrance exams.  From having done two MEPS exams and two ANG exams, I can tell you the ones at MEPS are more thorough than any physical I've ever been to.  The Air Guard medical squadrons probably have a "take care of our own" mentality, even though you aren't actually in yet.  You can bet that when the unit needs bodies, the medical exam at the ANG unit will be somewhat casual.

That is realllllly interesting...so does this mean that someone could go to ANG before a recruiter. For instance, I go to the Oklahoma ANG base at Will Rogers for meetings and some of the members are actually guardsmen...would I go to them first? or go to the recruiter first? Either way I still want to take the tests because I have not had a Dr. Visit/Physical in years! prob not since 03-04 when i was in HS!

[PHall]

First of all, it's not an automatic DQ from the ANG.  Many ANG units do their own pre-enlistment physicals and don't send their recruits to MEPS.  They do have to follow the same standards, but some interpret those standards in different ways.  It's not automatic, but it is likely that if you still need an inhaler for asthma that you will be DQ'd.

I really, really doubt that a DD would come out of such a situation.  A DD is usually given for things that would be a felony in civilian life, and usually has prison time.  However, you could get a Fraudulent Enlistment, and that is not a good thing at all.  A better possibility in that case would be an uncharacterized Entry Level Separation, but there's no guarantees on that one.

However, even if you get an ELS from BMT, since you would be Guard, the final discharging authority rests with your State Military Department.  You would get a DD214 releasing you from active duty, but your final "paper" is the NGB22.  Usually the State authorities will follow the recommendation of DOD, but not always.  I've seen ELS get both General and Honorable Conditions discharges, but if you get an FE the chances are very good you'll get bad paper from the Guard.

Moral of the story: whether or not you go to MEPS or your ANG unit does its own physicals, BE HONEST.  Don't fudge anything.  Do you want to be looking over your shoulder for your entire hitch?

Believe me, it's a lot better to get a "we can't use you" from the Guard for being honest than the other alternatives.  At least you would have tried and tried honestly.

And, as has been pointed out, there are other avenues of service.

CAP (of course)
State Guard (if your state has one)
U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary
U.S. Navy Sea Cadets
U.S. Army Cadets

None of those get paid (except for State Guards under certain circumstances), but service isn't necessarily about monetary benefits.

(And I agree...this isn't the place for the DADT debate)

Uhh, which ANG units don't send their people to MEPS? You can not go to Lackland without going through a MEPS first. MEPS is how you enter the system.

Yeah, many ANG units do screening physicals before they send somebody to MEPS. But that's just to avoid wasting people's time at MEPS.

Now physicals for Prior Service folk who are entering the Air Guard, different story. You don't need to go to MEPS if the unit can do the physical.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Yes, you can go to Lackland as NPS with the ANG without going to MEPS.

I don't know how many units are doing so now, or if the other reserve components do it.

Irishrenegade: Just talk to a recruiter.  Don't waste time dancing around the issue.

[Irishrenegade]

Yes, you can go to Lackland as NPS with the ANG without going to MEPS.

I don't know how many units are doing so now, or if the other reserve components do it.

Irishrenegade: Just talk to a recruiter.  Don't waste time dancing around the issue.

I dont want to dance around...I have two left feet

no but seriously that confused the hell out of me so Im just going to forget about what those two are talking about and just do my tests and go to the recruiter

[Major Lord]

My question was not so much designed to open up the question about whether homosexuals should be allowed to join the military, but rather, the question of whether lying to the military is ever permissible and ethical.  Clearly, the people taking the position that its okay to lie if its for a "good reason" are in the majority here. If you feel its okay to lie about being homosexual, its not a far leap to lying about other disqualifying conditions. Everyone who lies feels its in their best interest and for a good reason, but we have rules to cover areas where the individual  conscience may be weak or malformed.

Major Lord

[Stonewall]

My question was not so much designed to open up the question about whether homosexuals should be allowed to join the military, but rather, the question of whether lying to the military is ever permissible and ethical.  Clearly, the people taking the position that its okay to lie if its for a "good reason" are in the majority here. If you feel its okay to lie about being homosexual, its not a far leap to lying about other disqualifying conditions. Everyone who lies feels its in their best interest and for a good reason, but we have rules to cover areas where the individual  conscience may be weak or malformed.

The fact is, lying is not morally right to most.  For some, they don't know what is right in the first place so it's a moot point.  But for normal every day people like us on CAP Talk, we have to make a conscious effort to lie or, if you want to call it that, or fail to include a piece of information that may disqualify you from service.  Either way, lying is always risky.  Failing to provide all medical information is risky.  My guess is that most people in this discussion have lied at some point in their adult/professional/military lives.  Was it worth the risk?  Sure, if you didn't get caught.

[Major Lord]

I know that some people take the position that lying is always immoral and wrong. I don't. We are taught to lie from an early age. When Aunt Susie asks if the dress she is wearing makes her look fat, we learn quickly that the truth is not a defense when it comes to offending robust aunts. Police lie to suspects, wives to husbands, boyfriends to girlfriends, and all possible combinations. Lying merely for personal gain is another matter, and most people would view that, at least objectively, as wrong. Lying to get a job in the military, on the surface, looks to be one of those just plain wrong kinds of lies: The kind we tell for personal gain. It could well be the lie of of young man or woman who's desire to serve is just so great that they are willing to set aside their integrity to make it happen, but lies tend to take on a life of their own, and moral things rarely spring from immoral actions.

On a more practical matter, how many people have actually been prosecuted for a false enlistment for lying about something as mundane as a childhood history of Asthma? I have heard of enlistees leaving the military after very short stays after their drug tests came back, and other then separation, there were no legal consequences. I suppose this  kind of lie has a low risk to rewards benefit ratio.

Major Lord

[raivo]

My question was not so much designed to open up the question about whether homosexuals should be allowed to join the military, but rather, the question of whether lying to the military is ever permissible and ethical.  Clearly, the people taking the position that its okay to lie if its for a "good reason" are in the majority here. If you feel its okay to lie about being homosexual, its not a far leap to lying about other disqualifying conditions. Everyone who lies feels its in their best interest and for a good reason, but we have rules to cover areas where the individual  conscience may be weak or malformed.

It's a tough question, to be sure.

Which is why I took the cowardly route of not actually answering the question, and instead focused on the penalties for fraudulent enlistment.

[davedove]

The simple fact is that many times lies are not discovered.  That's where integrity comes in, doing the right thing when no one is looking.

However, in this situation, suppose the individual gains entry into the military and an incident occurs.  One of the first things the military tries to do is find out what went wrong.  At this point the lie is uncovered and the military suddenly has someone they can blame.

[Spike]

It's a tough question, to be sure.

As an Officer you should know the answer to this question.  Anything other than "disclose the condition", makes you a BAD Officer.  You are the role model these young men and women joining today are going to be seen by.  Truth is all we have in life.  The moral, academic and social truths hold this society together.  Everyone may look at this as "one lie that produces a great defender of freedom", but in the end no matter how awesome a person turns out to be, should the truth get out it will overpower any other beliefs we have about said person.

So you don't give your opinion.  That is OK.  We are incapable of judging your character when you do not give us anything to judge. 

I only used you as an example, but those of you telling him to lie.....think about this.  If he does have asthma (and we do not know if he does or not), and he does not disclose it what happens should he have an attack while in a training environment?  What happens if he has an attack on the far side of the wire while patrolling an airfield.  What happens if he has an attack at a computer terminal in an office building on Wright-Patt?  Those of you that know how serious asthma can be will know that he may not be able to speak and say "I have asthma".  The local EMT may not treat him as though he has asthma.  His battle buddies may have no idea how to treat an asthmatic attack.

The point is this is a lie that could (may or may not) endanger his life if he does not disclose it.  The most that may happen should he have an asthma attack and he "left it off the application" is a discharge and a bill from DFAS for hospitalization.  They will withold his last paycheck, and may even go after money spent on his medical costs.  In the long run, if he goes to school on the Governments expense they absolutely will send collection letters for repayment of used money. He will lose all VA benefits (even if he paid into them). 

[raivo]

As an Officer you should know the answer to this question.  Anything other than "disclose the condition", makes you a BAD Officer.  You are the role model these young men and women joining today are going to be seen by.  Truth is all we have in life.  The moral, academic and social truths hold this society together.  Everyone may look at this as "one lie that produces a great defender of freedom", but in the end no matter how awesome a person turns out to be, should the truth get out it will overpower any other beliefs we have about said person.

Well, I'll put it this way:

I would not do it myself, and I would advise against someone else doing it. He would be putting himself and others at risk if his asthma made a reappearance down the road. (Which goes back to waivers - if a doctor thinks that's unlikely to reoccur, then that's fine, but an individual shouldn't be making that decision on their own.)

At the same time, however, I think Major Lord raised a very good point. As all the oldschool military folks know, prior to 1993, it was illegal for homosexuals to serve in the military. You would be asked as part of the recruitment process if you were homosexual, and if you said yes, sorry, the military didn't want you. So, if you self-identified as gay, but nobody else knew... in order to join the military, you would have to knowingly falsify your enlistment documents by checking the "not gay" box. Is it an integrity breach? Yes. Is there any harm? No.

As a matter of integrity, in both situations it would be wrong, and that's the standard that we go by. We have to live by the rules, but that doesn't necessarily mean the rules are always fair - and when they're not fair, people are tempted to bend them.

I guess you could call me "opposed, but sympathetic."

[flyboy53]

Clearly, the people taking the position that its okay to lie if its for a "good reason" are in the majority here...If you feel its okay to lie about being homosexual, its not a far leap to lying about other disqualifying conditions...Everyone who lies feels its in their best interest and for a good reason, but we have rules to cover areas where the individual  conscience may be weak or malformed.

It's a tough question, to be sure.

Which is why I took the cowardly route of not actually answering the question, and instead focused on the penalties for fraudulent enlistment.

Then let the Retired Master Sergeant/CAP Lt. Col. answer it for you. No it's not o.k. to lie. The military is a culture built on honor and trust. Lies breed mistrust which destroys unit cohesion. From a different frame of reference, the same thing applies to the CAP. You want to see a unit destroyed, fill it full of liars who are obviously motivated for themselves and not the team.

Lieutenant, it is my hope that you find a good senior NCO that can mentor you in all facets of leadership, you're going to need it...."cowardly?" You need to pull out your leadership manuals and review them.

[lordmonar]

How's that go?

Oh yes...that's right!

Integrity First!

Having said that...there is a time and place to break the rules.

IMHO this is not one of them.  If you have a DQ condition.....ask for a waiver.  You would be suprised at what they will waiver these days.  If you are turned down.....look for other ways to serve.

[Cecil DP]

**NOTE*** I did not read all of the responses so this is purely to the OP....

I am NOT saying go for it and "forget" to put down your medical history that may disqualify you from service.  However, I will tell you a few stories of close friends...one of whom shares my last name.

Former CAP Cadet Wayne: Accepted to UF and attended Army ROTC there.  During a physical he admitted to some sort of skin disorder and he lost his ROTC scholarship.  They said he couldn't serve, period.  After two years of college without ROTC and a burning desire to serve, he went to a recruiter, DID NOT disclose his disqualifying skin disorder and enlisted.  He was a Cavalry Scout, made it through Special Forces and then got accepted to Warrant Officer Flight School.  He is now a CW-3 flying Kiowa Warriors.

Long time friend Patrick: Served in the Marine Corps for 4 years and got out.  After 9/11 he wanted to serve again, but this time in Navy Special Warfare.  Unfortunately he is color blind and the job he wanted required good vision.  I won't tell you how, but he managed to acquire the color blind test booklet and memorized it.  He passed with flying colors.  After 8 years, 5 tours of combat, Military Freefall School, 18D medic school, numerous other schools, he is still serving with color blindness.

SSgt Sandy:  She decided after 9/11 that she wanted to serve.  At age 30 she went to a National Guard recruiter.  Knowing she had asthma all her life, but fully capable of running 5 miles and passing any PT test the Air Force could throw at her, she went for it and did not mention her "condition".  7 years later she is still serving without incident.  She is also on a regional disaster/WMD response team that requires her to use specialized respirators and chemical suits...still no issues.

SFC Paul:  As a 15 year old he was in a bad car accident.  He lost a kidney.  Not knowing whether or not it would disqualify him from military service, he simply didn't mention it.  When asked about the scar, he said it was a bad cut from when he fell on a fence.  No one asked any further questions.  Paul has served 16 years in the Infantry, graduated Ranger School and has served 3 combat tours in Iraq.  He has the Bronze Star with "V" device.

It's your decision.  It's a risk to take that could have major repercussions.  But as the British SAS say "Who dares wins".

There was a Marine in the mid-60's who was blind in one eye. When he went to MEPS, he read the chart with his good eye, than covered his blind eye and reread it again with the same eye. He went to Vietnam and earned the CMH. when he tried to reenlist after a break in service he was caught and denied reenlistment. He called the Commandant of the Marine Corps  who personally gave him  the waiver. He retired 30 years later as a MSG. 

[Stonewall]

There was a Marine in the mid-60's who was blind in one eye. When he went to MEPS, he read the chart with his good eye, than covered his blind eye and reread it again with the same eye. He went to Vietnam and earned the CMH. when he tried to reenlist after a break in service he was caught and denied reenlistment. He called the Commandant of the Marine Corps  who personally gave him  the waiver. He retired 30 years later as a MSG.

Great story.  Makes me think of all the WWII men that lied about their age so they could fight.  The youngest US serviceman was 12 year old Calvin Graham, USN. He was wounded in combat and given a Dishonorable Discharge for lying about his age.  Shame on him. 

[raivo]

Then let the Retired Master Sergeant/CAP Lt. Col. answer it for you. No it's not o.k. to lie. The military is a culture built on honor and trust. Lies breed mistrust which destroys unit cohesion. From a different frame of reference, the same thing applies to the CAP. You want to see a unit destroyed, fill it full of liars who are obviously motivated for themselves and not the team.

Lieutenant, it is my hope that you find a good senior NCO that can mentor you in all facets of leadership, you're going to need it...."cowardly?" You need to pull out your leadership manuals and review them.

Read what I said just above - I did some more considering. I'm sticking with "opposed, but sympathetic."