Would you go to Haiti?

[Walkman]

Listening to a radio report about the quake and the SAR work going got me thinking. What would you think about CAP being tasked with helping the relief effort in a situation like this, if the circumstances warranted more "boots on the ground" than we could afford with regular military troops?

[SarDragon]

In a word, no.

Here's why.

[Stonewall]

With CAP?  No.

[bosshawk]

+1, Dave.  In CAP, we are not trained nor equipped to do the sorts of things that are needed in Haiti right now.  The only exception might be doctors, nurses, EMTs and urban search specialists.  If you are one of those and you belong to an organization that is charged with the Haiti operation, have at it.  No CAP organization is equpped to do this sort of thing.

We have no business even considering going to a foreign country and trying to insert ourselves into the disaster.  I know that there is a strong urge to do something: no way as a CAP member.

[JayT]

Yeah, I would. Those people are suffering, and I'm an EMT.

[Eclipse]

Not with CAP - our capabilities are stretched enough we we have to go 1/2-way across the country, let alone outside.

We have our place and our role - we are not all things to all people.

[♠SARKID♠]

+2 SarDragon

Haiti is definitely not a country I would want to be seen wearing what looks like a US military uniform in; enjoy your kidnapping.

[Stonewall]

I'm an EMT.  Have been since 1993.  I've also been to Haiti, Rwanda, Ethiopia, Laos, Cambodia and a number of other developing countries.  I was also "on scene" at the Tsunamis in late 2004 into 2005.  An EMT isn't going to help with what they're suffering from.  Antibiotics, nutrition, prevention of AIDS, and solid infrastructure; that's what they need.

[PA Guy]

What skills would CAP bring?  Do they have the equipment, training and support to be self sustaining in that situation? I don't think so, they would be a burden.

So, would I go with CAP? Not hardly!

[heliodoc]

Really doubt CAP could get through the State Department steps for one thing..

CAPers!!!  Got your shot records??

Got your tactical skills  up to speed??  That is is doubtful even for the PA "Rangers", NBB etc ,etc

I'm pretty sure some CAPers are sitting right by the phone and waiting for the CAP Klaxons to go off

USAR teams are more useful than CAP.  CAP could probably hand out MRE's and bottled water... oh wait a minute  IT quite a bit more SERIOUS that that

CAPers....careful about self dispatchin' yourselves!

[DG]

YES.

In a New York minute.

[RedMedic]

I absolutely would, granted not with CAP, but as a paramedic. There are a few teams in the area that are preparing to deploy so it's just a waiting game at this point, but i'm surely going to try.

[RiverAux]

I would if I thought there was something particularly useful I could bring to the table. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I'm with those who say 'no.' It's not that I don't care; it's that Haiti is a craphole full of corruption and incompetence. The Americans who go down there can only make a dent in what is widespread human horror,  and that's before the earthquake killed tens of thousands (the Haitian PM said tonight 100K-plus).

All that said, Stonewall's right.

Mod edit for subversion of the curse filter. - MIKE

[Major Lord]

Joe,

You may be an EMT ( I am too) but as far as CAP is concerned, your medical rating is purely ceremonial. As to CAP going to Haiti (maybe Hades....) your lines of supply would be tenuous at best, and without a Government to throw money at the problem ( And thats not going to happen for CAP) and the huge infrastructure of the US Naval and Military services to back your play, you would be a liability, not an asset.

That being said, the Red Cross, Salvation Army, Church Groups, etc could possibly use you. In every third world toilet I have ever seen a disaster in, the Red Cross has been right there beside us ( and unlike my people, they were unarmed and carrying food-a sure way to get double-dog killed)

Haiti's problems are largely political. Even in the best of times the place is the sphincter to hell, and if you want to go, and face the kind of horror that awaits you there, find a good team with good resources. Preferably, go armed, because they will literally cut your heart out there and eat it for breakfast. With a nice EMT liver Ettoufe'.


Bon chance!

Major Lord

[Major Carrales]

If it was approved by all parties and my Principal OK'ed it I would strongly consider going.   But, all things being equal, I doubt it would be allowed.

[Spike]

Haiti's problems are largely political. Even in the best of times the place is the sphincter to hell, and if you want to go, and face the kind of horror that awaits you there, find a good team with good resources. Preferably, go armed, because they will literally cut your heart out there and eat it for breakfast. With a nice EMT liver Ettoufe'.

1

It will soon start getting worse there, and people will start killing each other for water.  Not to mention the rape and pillage that will soon begin.  We will see UN and US food distribution sites overrun by bad people and some relief workers killed. 

That is one place I do not wish my worst enemy to ever have to go.

[MikeD]

The AP and CNN are both reporting shots fired in Port-Au-Prince.  Not sure if that's just a few, or lots.  Same thing happened during Katrina, but the potential for this to go very bad seems a lot higher to me.

[Eclipse]

The AP and CNN are both reporting shots fired in Port-Au-Prince.  Not sure if that's just a few, or lots.  Same thing happened during Katrina, but the potential for this to go very bad seems a lot higher to me.

While there was obviously documented looting (some for basic survival), the reports of violence against emergency workers, and even the
general lawless anarchy and widespread criminal activity reported by the media were found later to have been greatly exaggerated.

With that said, I have no doubt that a place with as many pre-disaster "issues" as Haiti could sink further, faster, into chaos.

[Major Lord]

While there was obviously documented looting (some for basic survival), the reports of violence against emergency workers, and even the
general lawless anarchy and widespread criminal activity reported by the media were found later to have been greatly exaggerated.

We found it better not to discuss the things that actually occurred in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, especially with the media. I am not sure what reports you might consider "greatly exaggerated" but I was there for almost a year after the Hurricane, and the lawlessness and criminal activity was an 11 on a 10 Scale for a few months.

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

I'm referring to the situation in the Superdome and the reports of sniper fire on the bridge (and violence against ES workers).

I know NOLA was bad, and still is in some places, but it wasn't exactly the Gold Coast before the hurricane, either, especially in the 9th ward.

[Gunner C]

I would if I thought there was something particularly useful I could bring to the table.

Here's an illustration of how effective one could be in Haiti in 5 steps.

• Procure a bucket
• Fill it with water 3/4 full
• Put your fist in it
• Wait 30 seconds
• Pull your fist out

The imprint you leave will be exactly the impact you will make on the situation.  It rips my heart out to say it, but it's true.

But what will happen to you?

• Kidnapped and held for ransome?
• Murdered for the $10 bill in your pocket?
• Killed or maimed when some two-bit structure falls on you?
• Or catch some disease that western medicine hasn't heard of, much less have a cure for?

Take the worst slum in the US, multiply it by 100, and you'll have the situation in Haiti.  I don't think many of you folks who are itching to go have a real understanding of what's there waiting for you.  There's nothing in Cairo, Calcutta, or any other such place, with the possible exception of most of Bangladesh or Mogadeshu, that could even come close.

Those of us who plied out trades in the Third World have a bit of a handle on this.  Haiti is the exact last place in the world I'd ever want to go.  Were I still in the RM, I'd salute and execute.  But as a volunteer, there's no way. 

The AP and CNN are both reporting shots fired in Port-Au-Prince.

Oh those wacky media types.  They don't get out much.  Those reporters haven't ever been there on a good day.

[DogCollar]

I agree that I probably wouldn't go...not because of the danger involved...but because I think I wouldn't have the right mix of skills and training needed in the moment. 

However, people are suffering in the worst imaginable way and my heart goes out to them.  I am grateful that there are groups of well-trained persons in disaster relief, emergency medicine, engineering, sanitation, food distribution and security...and I plan to make monetary contributions to help.  Right now, I believe giving money is probably the very best thing most of us can do.

[Al Sayre]

If I had to go with CAP, it would be as an MP or IC with housing and security provided by the USAF to do photo recon of damaged areas etc.  As a GTL/GTM no way unless they lift the weapons restriction, and only then with others who have security/LE/combat training.  Otherwise I might consider going as part of a complete U.S. Forces package to work as an electrical engineer to help restore the infrastructure.   

[Spike]

However, people are suffering in the worst imaginable way and my heart goes out to them.

But the Haitians were suffering in the worst imaginable way before the quake, now they don't have cardboard boxes to sleep in.  Food, water, electricity and sewage were hardly there before the earthquake.  WHERE were all these agencies and aid from around the world then??

Seriously, if we are going to rebuild their infrastructure better than what some US citizens have, then we need to go in and clean up EVERYTHING.  From criminals to the corrupt government.  Don't forget Haiti is half an Island, and the other half seems to get along very well.  Time to get rid of that "border" and consolidate those two "countries" into one.  Then in 50 years we can make it a possesion like Puerto Rico where they get all the benefits of being an American Citizen, without having to pay taxes because they get to decide if they want to join the United States.  Umm....really Puerto Rico, time to join the Union or find your own path. 

[Walkman]

Wow. Lots of things to think about. When I made that post, Haiti was on my mind because of the news, but really I was thinking about anywhere in the world. Could CAP have been helpful after the tsunami, or in England if a disaster struck there?

[JayT]

Wow. Lots of things to think about. When I made that post, Haiti was on my mind because of the news, but really I was thinking about anywhere in the world. Could CAP have been helpful after the tsunami, or in England if a disaster struck there?

No, CAP wouldn't be helpful. It's not organized, not equiped, trained, or supplied to commit to a complex technicial rescue operation. You don't need a bunch of vollys running around, you need trained professionals with a supply line behind them.

[dwb]

I wouldn't send CAP to Haiti, it's not what we're good at.  I certainly wouldn't send cadets; I'd fear they'd be kidnapped and end up as restaveks.  And I myself wouldn't go; I don't have the right skills to be of any use.

What little infrastructure Haiti's cities did have has basically been wiped out.  They were already a politically bankrupt state, now they don't even have the limited structure that was in place to run the government.  It's a sad situation all around.

[heliodoc]

Have to agree with above posts

These are missions for folks who do this EVERY day with Standardized training and a supply system that CAP has yet to recognize both in training and curriculum that can support something this major.

The argument(s) in previous threads about CERT and CAP....this goes even beyond that.  Some quotes on FOX this AM  ....48 tons of equipment from various USAR type operators......  That is a major SARDA type event that CAP is supposed to be prepared for Stateside let alone Haiti

This is a major operation airlift wise that red white and blue patterned aircraft would merely eat up space and interfere with heavy lift operations

CAP could be best used by loadin pallets or trucks and vehicles at the local Red Cross office

[Major Lord]

I'm referring to the situation in the Superdome and the reports of sniper fire on the bridge (and violence against ES workers).

I know NOLA was bad, and still is in some places, but it wasn't exactly the Gold Coast before the hurricane, either, especially in the 9th ward.

Roger that. Anywhere the media had access was ripe as a source of disinformation to denigrate, George Bush , FEMA, etc.. As far as snipers, I and my rental SUV can attest to their presence. although the bridge report was exaggerated, there were definitely some active shooters taking pot shots there ( and I would take getting shot even once seriously and kind of personal) The military presence there sent the neer-do-wells to greener pastures.

The ninth ward  gave a lot of gangs ( or "community organizers" as they call them)  new opportunities to redraw their sphere of influence maps. The Ninth Ward residents and occupiers were significantly better armed than the populace of Haiti, but civilization was a 60 minute drive away, and they did not have quite the levels of desperation we are likely to see in Haiti.

Earthquakes, like lightning, tend to hit the same places over and over again. Our personnel on the ground, and our ships at sea, are in harm's way while in the AO. As long as Haiti remains a country based entirely on tyranny, we will be giving aspirin to a rabid wolf and patting ourselves on the back for our good work.

Major Lord

[DogCollar]

However, people are suffering in the worst imaginable way and my heart goes out to them.

But the Haitians were suffering in the worst imaginable way before the quake, now they don't have cardboard boxes to sleep in.  Food, water, electricity and sewage were hardly there before the earthquake.  WHERE were all these agencies and aid from around the world then??

Seriously, if we are going to rebuild their infrastructure better than what some US citizens have, then we need to go in and clean up EVERYTHING.  From criminals to the corrupt government.  Don't forget Haiti is half an Island, and the other half seems to get along very well.  Time to get rid of that "border" and consolidate those two "countries" into one.  Then in 50 years we can make it a possesion like Puerto Rico where they get all the benefits of being an American Citizen, without having to pay taxes because they get to decide if they want to join the United States.  Umm....really Puerto Rico, time to join the Union or find your own path.

True that the Haitians were suffering before the earthquake.  They will also suffer for many years to come.  You don't just "snap out" fo that kind of poverty.  However, I think it is a moral imparitive for us to provide the aid that is needed if we can.  No, CAP shouldn't be tasked to respond in Haiti, but I think it is appropriate for CAP members, in their capacity as American citizens to live up to the ideals our nation professes by providing emergency aid.  We can all contribute to the Red Cross, or other diaster relief agencies, and that is what is needed most.

[Walkman]

No, CAP shouldn't be tasked to respond in Haiti, but I think it is appropriate for CAP members, in their capacity as American citizens to live up to the ideals our nation professes by providing emergency aid.  We can all contribute to the Red Cross, or other diaster relief agencies, and that is what is needed most.

Good point. I could see organizing a squadron around the Red Cross like heliodoc mentioned.

[SergeantElbow]

If you really want to help the relief effort, you can donate to Missionary Flights International in Fort Pierce.  They are partnering with Samaritan's Purse to fly down thousands of pounds of relief supplies and aid workers RIGHT NOW.  They were there the day after the earthquake with relief supplies.  You can donate to their effort here: http://www.missionaryflights.org/donate-now
You also read field reports from missions in Haiti and view the progress of relief flights here: http://www.missionaryflights.org/field-reports/up-to-the-minute
Your donation right now can make a difference in the lives of the people of Haiti.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

...I could see organizing a squadron around the Red Cross like heliodoc mentioned.

I could see the story on the CAP News site... "1st Expeditionary Composite Squadron deploys to Haiti."

Someone from there would find a way to log on here and complain that boonie hats are still unauthorized.

[Spike]

...I could see organizing a squadron around the Red Cross like heliodoc mentioned.

I could see the story on the CAP News site... "1st Expeditionary Composite Squadron deploys to Haiti."

Someone from there would find a way to log on here and complain that boonie hats are still unauthorized.

ADD "1st Expeditionary Composite Squadron RANGER TEAM deploys to Haiti"

I know some Rangers are just waiting for the call and polishing their whistle chains and making sure their ranger grade badges are up to date.     I Joke, I don't hate rangers....

[flyerthom]

CAP could be utilized here to help load supplies onto ships leaving the US.

As for me - if CAP helathcare staff could go as a supplement to US Military medical staff I'd go in a heart beat. As I suggestted in a different thread as staff on the USNS Comfort or Mercy. We could do serious good work.

We aren't needed there for Urbab SAR and we're not technical rescue people like trench rescue etc. We'd only be in the way.

[Ranger75]

As a member of CAP I wouldn't believe it to be within the realm of possibility.  Having served in Rwanda and Zaire (Democratic Republic of Congo) at the height of the '94 genocide and humanitarian relief effort, I can state with a degree of experience that we lack the appropriate skill sets, organizational structure, and logistical mechanisms to operate within such a challenging operational environment.  That being said, there is a possibility that I could deploy to Haiti, or be responsible for directing others to augment the deploying Joint Task Force being directed by U.S. Southern Command.  If I go forward, I will do so with confidence that I will be in the company of other professionals trained for such demanding circumstances. 

[PHall]

CAP could be utilized here to help load supplies onto ships leaving the US.

Oh yeah, the Longshorman's Union would really be happy with that idea. NOT!

And I don't know too many (any) CAP members who are qualified to operate the equipment that moves shipping containers from trucks to the ship.

[CadetProgramGuy]

What Haiti needs is several USAR and DMAT teams.

[Alpha]

Ha ha...CAP can't even get out of it's own way.

Go to Haiti?    Are you serious?    LOL

[PA Guy]

What Haiti needs is several USAR and DMAT teams.

There are currently 5 DMATs, 1 ImSurt and 2 DMORTs enroute.  There are also at least 4 USAR teams enroute.  Three more DMATs are on alert.

[CadetProgramGuy]

What Haiti needs is several USAR and DMAT teams.

There are currently 5 DMATs, 1 ImSurt and 2 DMORTs enroute.  There are also at least 4 USAR teams enroute.  Three more DMATs are on alert.

ImSurt - Never heard of them......Looks like a job for google.....

Edit - And Google says they are the International Medical Surgical Response Team.  A fully self sustaining OR team.

[Spaceman3750]

http://www.sj-r.com/carousel/x1672011063/Groups-organizing-for-Haiti-help

Here you go, find a local org that's doing this and offer your squadron's help. They are packing a container full of supplies and other relief stuff to go over.

CAP could never help load planes, ships, etc. We aren't qualified, and there are people in the armed forces whose jobs are to do exactly that.

[dogboy]

I'm a DMAT member. I'm leaving Tuesday if the flights are sorted out.

[JayT]

I'm a DMAT member. I'm leaving Tuesday if the flights are sorted out.

What qualification do you have? I sent an email to DMAT NY 02.

[PA Guy]

^^^

I'm also a DMAT member.  My team has been put on alert but haven't heard anything yet.

When did you send you send your e-mail to NY-2?  Most applications take several months to process once the team accepts you.  The application is sent to HHS and then you are contacted for credentaling and background investigation.  The wheels at HHS turn slowly.

[Gunner C]

Good grief.  I just heard an estimate of 200,000+ dead.  Absolutely horrific.  I also saw that a hospital ship is leaving Baltimore Harbor today.  It has 250 beds.  That illustrates the gravity of the disaster vs. the available resources.  I'm afraid everything is going to be a drop in the bucket.  This is probably going to be the worst human disaster since the tsunamis of a few years ago.

[Major Carrales]

The idea is of CAP as a force multiplier where ever and when ever it operates in such matters.  We could not "spearhead" anything or operate autonomously, as we sometimes tend to do in our defined "domestic" setting. 

That limits, but does not exclude or preclude CAP resources from participation.  We could provide all the same aerial support we operate here in the US...including aerial photography, transportation of dignitaries, experienced air operations personal to augment or supplemental those already in operation (extra "eyes in the skies" and "base personnel" to relieve certain folks for other duties)

I would not support Ground Teams or COMM from CAP, those areas would be extremely dangerous, both from conditions and humanity (sadly, those in desperation, fear and the like...be they anyone, might present a danger we are ill prepared to face)  COMM in the US is already stretched.

Thus, I think it is possible (not probable) that CAP would serve in any capacity in such a situation.  And, if it was authorized, for example, CAP aircraft from the Southeast and Southwest Regions, to be attached to Haiti relief, they would fall under someone else's command.  Plus, how would those aircraft and crew get there and I'm sure there would be International Issues with everything from uniforms to aircraft usage protocols.   

[dogboy]

What Haiti needs is several USAR and DMAT teams.

There are currently 5 DMATs, 1 ImSurt and 2 DMORTs enroute.  There are also at least 4 USAR teams enroute.  Three more DMATs are on alert.

By USAR do you mean FEMA US&R?

[Pumbaa]

You will need a gun to be in Haiti...  it is getting bad... going to get much much worse.  total governmental breakdown...

[raivo]

"Boots on the ground" is not a term I like. It implies that the more boots on the ground, the better, regardless of the role of the person filling said boots.

CAP is an excellent resource for ES and DR missions in a stable country. It is absolutely not (and should not be) equipped to handle operations in a foreign country where the rule of law has completely broken down, disease and violence are rampant, and there is no infrastructure to support CAP operations.

[BTCS1*]

Plus the CISM nightmare that it would be, especialy if (hypotheticaly) cadets went there. From what I've seen on the news, it's outright disturbing seeing the image if all the bodies in the street.
And good luck down there dogboy!

[Leading_Edge]

Would I go?: Yes



Likely hood: absolutely nothing at all..........


As a side note, i would much rather be with an organization that deals with these types of situations and might know more about the people and the area than CAP.......I highly doubt that any organization would allow any youth into the area with all of the death and destruction that has taken place in Haiti, no matter how much we would want to go.....Its hard for us in CAP to see this kind of destruction and human suffering on the news because we all feel that we can contribute our skills and expertise to help save others, unfortunately all we can give is our money, the rest is left up to our military and the volunteers already there..... 

[wuzafuzz]

There are some places in the U.S. I wouldn't send CAP ground teams or support personnel.  Haiti?  No way. 

If you aren't already a trained member of a USAR or relief organization you have no business going.   If your desire to help is borne out of compassion, find a worthy place to donate your money.

That said, there are many places in the U.S. that are susceptible to natural disasters.  Figure out what CAP can realistically offer and then get good at it.  Train well in advance and practice, practice, practice.  Want to do other things?  Join organizations that do those things.

[bosshawk]

DOGBOY: I believe that the reference to USAR means United States Army Reserve.

[cap235629]

DOGBOY: I believe that the reference to USAR means United States Army Reserve.

Sorry no, it refers to Urban Search and Rescue

[flyguy06]

LOL. I workwith USAR and I thought it meant reserves too. It is a FEMA organization. MY CERFP unit worked with them last year.

[Nathan]

No. Not because I wouldn't want to if I thought I could help. But I am aware, despite my CAP training and even my regular medical training, that I am not qualified to be helpful enough to justify the money that would be spent to feed and shelter me. I would rather that money go to someone who is far more qualified to handle this type of situation.

It does not, however, stop people from helping in the form of a monetary donation to one of the reputable relief programs out there.

[DG]

You will need a gun to be in Haiti...  it is getting bad... going to get much much worse.  total governmental breakdown...

How is it that you can have a "total governmental breakdown"?

Isn't that what happens in a coup or takeover?

But then you have a new government, even if it is military.

What is it about Haiti that you can have a "total governmental breakdown"?

Lazy?  Incompetent?  Irresponsible?

If we send aid, without fixing the problem, are we enabling this to happen again and again?

Where else in our part of the world is this happening?

Did nobody see this coming?

[Al Sayre]

Lots of people saw it coming, few have (had) the ability to do anything about it.  Foreign powers have had to step in numerous times to put the country back on its feet.  However as soon as the situation becomes tolerable for the populace, they ask the foreign powers to leave, and the same cycle starts again.  Corrupt and inexperienced politicians, massive debt and poverty, no viable exports, then some relatively small disaster that the country can't cope with due to the lack of infrastructure etc. and the foreign powers have to step in again... 

[mikebank]

I would go, but, that is easy to say since there is no chance the CAP will be sent.

[dogboy]

LOL. I workwith USAR and I thought it meant reserves too. It is a FEMA organization. MY CERFP unit worked with them last year.

I believe that is why the preferred acronyms is US&R rather than USAR

[Johnny Yuma]

NWIH (No Way In H***)

Between the Haitian government and the United Nations running the operation, I predict that the whole country will be a bastard child looking like something between 9th Ward Hurricane KAtrina and Somalia 1993.

This country's been independent for over 200 years and has never showed any semblance of a nation in that entire time depsite allof the world's efforts. Haiti was a lost cause before the quake and will continue to be thereafter.

[Cecil DP]

Haiti is the poorest nation in the western hemisphere, and  close to being the poorest in the world. Without sanitation, clean water,  or shelter CHOLERA and MALARIA will soon follow. It also has a high number of ACTIVE HIV cases.. This is not where you want to go for any reason. 

[JoeTomasone]

...Especially since relief workers are now apparently coming under gunfire.

[Spike]

Haiti is the poorest nation in the western hemisphere, and  close to being the poorest in the world. Without sanitation, clean water,  or shelter CHOLERA and MALARIA will soon follow. It also has a high number of ACTIVE HIV cases.. This is not where you want to go for any reason.

Hepatitis and meningitis are very bad and will easily make the rounds through the population there.  There are also reports of drug resistant staph infections appearing. 

Bad news regrading health.  We need to quarantine every American and Haitian coming back to the United States (but that would be nonpolitical Correct!!!)

[billford1]

I lived in S. Fla for many years and got to know many Haitian immigrants. As a Federal Guard my older Brother got know many of them as well. It helps to understand that even in the best of times Haiti is a place where it is very tough to survive. This is to say the least a very tough culture that is the result of many years of cruel oppression from the Duvaliers, their successors and their secret police. People should be aware of this as they anticipate being part of a relief effort. As for me the only way I would go to Haiti at this time would be if I were assigned to or under the protection of an American Military detachment. The Haitian People should be afforded as much compassion and help as can be brought forth but I wouldn't go as part of a CAP operation unless sponsored by and attached in some way to our Military.

[tdepp]

Fellow CAP Members:

I know we're volunteers but if we were asked to go, we should go.  If the USAF needs our help, then we need to help.  We are their auxiliary.  And suffering knows no history.  The Haitian people need help.

I don't believe the USA should be the world's social worker but our nation has committed to helping Haiti, as have our branches of the services.   If asked, and we can serve, we should.  I would go if asked and could make proper arrangements at my law firm, where I am an owner and one of the people largely responsible for keeping it afloat and my associate lawyers and staff paid. 

In the meantime,  give some money to a reputable charity helping Haiti, support your friends and neighbors who are going over on medical and other missions, and say a prayer or two for the people of Haiti.

Best regards,

Todd Epp, Capt., CAP
Legal Officer
Sioux Falls Composite Squadron and
S.D. Wing

[Spike]

I just read how much $$ is going to Haiti.  Plus add in the dollars from united nations, Nato etc.  I would love to get some of that cash to fix our inner cities. 

Haiti can not be fixed.  We will build new infrastructure, new schools, provide food for the next decade, but the crime and corrupt government will keep the people subservient and poor. 

I have to ask....has anyone seen what happened to the "other side" of the island.....the RESORT side??

[PA Guy]

Bad news regrading health.  We need to quarantine every American and Haitian coming back to the United States (but that would be nonpolitical Correct!!!)

Does that include everyone that has been properly immunized, including all of the military personnel deployed there? There hasn't been a mass quarantine in the US since the 1930s.

[Spike]

^ I don't think there is a vaccine for the plaque.  H1N1 is a serious concern as well.  In fact I do think everyone returning should be quarantined (including military personnel that came in contact with the island or its people. 

[Eclipse]

^ I don't think there is a vaccine for the plaque. 

No, but you can get it engraved!

[SarDragon]

^ I don't think there is a vaccine for the plaque. 

No, but you can get it engraved!

Or let your dentist work on it!

[wuzafuzz]

^ I don't think there is a vaccine for the plaque. 

No, but you can get it engraved!

Or let your dentist work on it!

Or your cardiologist!

[Cecil DP]

^ I don't think there is a vaccine for the plaque.  H1N1 is a serious concern as well.  In fact I do think everyone returning should be quarantined (including military personnel that came in contact with the island or its people.

Actually there is a plague vaccine. I recall getting the shot when I was active duty prior to going to Nam

[SarDragon]

Now that you mention it, I went and looked at my shot record. Got stuck for that in Aug 1980.

[PA Guy]

^ I don't think there is a vaccine for the plaque.  H1N1 is a serious concern as well.  In fact I do think everyone returning should be quarantined (including military personnel that came in contact with the island or its people.

Where are you going to lock up these thousands of people?  Who is going to pay for it?  How long are you going to lock them up, some diseases have an incubation period of several mos to 1yr?  What impact will removing an entire MEU, 82nd ABN contingent, USAF, USCG, USN personnel have on readiness?   

[flyguy06]

Yes. I would go to help the people.

[PHall]

Fellow CAP Members:

I know we're volunteers but if we were asked to go, we should go.  If the USAF needs our help, then we need to help.  We are their auxiliary.  And suffering knows no history.  The Haitian people need help.

I don't believe the USA should be the world's social worker but our nation has committed to helping Haiti, as have our branches of the services.   If asked, and we can serve, we should.  I would go if asked and could make proper arrangements at my law firm, where I am an owner and one of the people largely responsible for keeping it afloat and my associate lawyers and staff paid. 

In the meantime,  give some money to a reputable charity helping Haiti, support your friends and neighbors who are going over on medical and other missions, and say a prayer or two for the people of Haiti.

Best regards,

Todd Epp, Capt., CAP
Legal Officer
Sioux Falls Composite Squadron and
S.D. Wing

Can CAP legally operate outside of the United States?

[RiverAux]

I think I remember reading some posts here about CAP being covered by Status of Forces Agreements with various nations regarding US military in their countries.  So, there might be some legal complications in that sense.

But, there is nothing in federal law that prohibits CAP from operating outside the US that I'm aware of.  Don't recall seeing anything in AF regulations regarding use of CAP that would restrict them from authorizing an AFAM outside the US. 

[Ned]

Can CAP legally operate outside of the United States?

Phil,

We kinda do all the time.  Overseas squadrons and IACE, as just two examples. 

I'm not aware of anyting that would legally prevent CAP from operating OCONUS.  May or may not be a good idea, but I can't think of any legal showstoppers off the top of my head.

[Eclipse]

Can CAP legally operate outside of the United States?

Phil,

We kinda do all the time.  Overseas squadrons and IACE, as just two examples. 

I'm not aware of anyting that would legally prevent CAP from operating OCONUS.  May or may not be a good idea, but I can't think of any legal showstoppers off the top of my head.

Neither overseas squadrons, nor IACE participate operationally (i.e. neither do ES).  Apples and oranges.

[Ned]

I certainly agree that overseas squadrons and IACE do not do ES.  (But CP is an operational mission of CAP.)

But leaving semantics aside for a moment, I repeat that I cannot think of any US law or CAP regulation that would prevent us from conducting ES OCONUS.

As others point have pointed out, we do not have a logistical base to do so, and there are a mountain of other problems.  But not a legal one.

For example, in the extremely unlikely event that the Canadian government asked Uncle Sam through channels for us to do a little air seach just over the border, I don't see any legal reason we could not do so. 

Just saying . . .

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Eclipse]

OK, for starters does CAP have an MOU with Haiti?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

For example, in the extremely unlikely event that the Canadian government asked Uncle Sam through channels for us to do a little air seach just over the border, I don't see any legal reason we could not do so. 

I think something like that would be covered through NORAD, which has procedures in place for joint interoperability of USAF and RCAF assets; i.e., the CF-18's that assumed ramp duty at Elmendorf a couple of years (?) ago while the F-15's were stood down for maintenance reasons.

That is very different from Haiti.  I would doubt if we had an MOU with them, in large part because I don't think they have any armed forces to speak of, other than local constabulary units.

[Ned]

I think something like that would be covered through NORAD, (. . .)

You could well be correct. IDK.

That is very different from Haiti.  I would doubt if we had an MOU with them, in large part because I don't think they have any armed forces to speak of, other than local constabulary units.

Again, you are probably correct that CAP, Inc. does not have a current MOU with the nation of Haiti.

But is not the same thing as saying that there is some legal bar that would prevent CAP from doing anything in Haiti or anywhere else.

If an MOU was the only problem, CAP and Haitian government lawyers could fix that in a relatively short time. 

But there is no law that says an MOU is required for CAP to provide services to anyone, just an internal CAP reg that can be changed fairly quickly.

Like I said, there are a bazillion good reasons why CAP is not likely to get involved in Haitian-style relief efforts.  I'm just saying that I don't think a legal problem is one of them.

Have a nice day.

[PHall]

My question was more along the lines of "Could CAP be utilized by the Air Force in Disaster Relief missions that are outside of the United States?"
Are there any legal prohibitions? I have reviewed AFI 10-2701 and AFPD 10-27 and have found nothing. Matter of fact the subject was not even addressed.

[RogueLeader]

Fellow CAP Members:

I know we're volunteers but if we were asked to go, we should go.  If the USAF needs our help, then we need to help.  We are their auxiliary.  And suffering knows no history.  The Haitian people need help.

I don't believe the USA should be the world's social worker but our nation has committed to helping Haiti, as have our branches of the services.   If asked, and we can serve, we should.  I would go if asked and could make proper arrangements at my law firm, where I am an owner and one of the people largely responsible for keeping it afloat and my associate lawyers and staff paid. 

In the meantime,  give some money to a reputable charity helping Haiti, support your friends and neighbors who are going over on medical and other missions, and say a prayer or two for the people of Haiti.

Best regards,

Todd Epp, Capt., CAP
Legal Officer
Sioux Falls Composite Squadron and
S.D. Wing

Can CAP legally operate outside of the United States?

some aspects do.  CAP Chaplians have deployed to Iraq.  IDK names or numbers, but its been done before.  I don't know why we couldn't.  I just know that I wouldn't.

[Al Sayre]

There was some consideration by AFNORTH of sending the Surrogate Predator Aircraft & crews TDY...

[Eclipse]

CAP Chaplains have deployed to Iraq.  IDK names or numbers, but its been done before.

No way.  Never happened.  Not once.

I'm not saying some random military Chaplain who is also a CAP member hasn't gone over, in fact the odds are pretty good, but there's never been a CAP member deployed to the war in no other status other than him being a CAP Chaplain.

If nothing else that would be a Volunteer cover story (rightly so).

[RiverAux]

For example, in the extremely unlikely event that the Canadian government asked Uncle Sam through channels for us to do a little air seach just over the border, I don't see any legal reason we could not do so. 

Like we did in Mexico just this past summer....

[Eclipse]

For example, in the extremely unlikely event that the Canadian government asked Uncle Sam through channels for us to do a little air seach just over the border, I don't see any legal reason we could not do so. 

Like we did in Mexico just this past summer....

Are our airplanes even rated/licensed/whatever for international travel?

I don't even know what that entails.

[Al Sayre]

Yes our planes could go international.  All the required documents are on board.  It might take a few phone calls to/from Dept of State and Customs, but probably not much more than any other international flight, especially if it was at the request of the foreign gov't.  How do you think they get the planes back & forth to Puerto Rico Wing?  They have to transit the Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, French and British VI, etc. or get permission to overfly Cuba (good luck with that).