More changes are a comin'

[heliodoc]

^^^

Yep agree with Short Field

In my  22 yrs Army and ARNG Aviation formation was a bigger deal then off to assigned MX tasks

One will learn in CAP, that it is not all D&C that makes us look sharp All the time.....it's how we treat the customer who we are supporting.  They may see us once-n-while in our 1550's combo s and BDU's stormin around looking sharp.  But we really have other tasks at hand to get done in CAP

[ßτε]

Here in Gp 4, we require our new officers to attend a weekend OTS.  They learn drill to the same standards as Curry-level cadets... basic drill, facings, salutes, reporting to an officer, etc.  We even have cadet officers and NCO's help teach them.  It is fun to watch a group of 50-somethings in formation while a teenager says:  "I am Chief Master Sergeant Umpdefrat, and I will be your instructor.  At this time we will learn the right and left facing maneuvers."

How do you reconcile this with CAPR 35-5 paragraph 1-1?

1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

[Short Field]

Pesky CAP regulations...

[RiverAux]

Here in Gp 4, we require our new officers to attend a weekend OTS.  They learn drill to the same standards as Curry-level cadets... basic drill, facings, salutes, reporting to an officer, etc.  We even have cadet officers and NCO's help teach them.  It is fun to watch a group of 50-somethings in formation while a teenager says:  "I am Chief Master Sergeant Umpdefrat, and I will be your instructor.  At this time we will learn the right and left facing maneuvers."

How do you reconcile this with CAPR 35-5 paragraph 1-1?

1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

There is some wiggleroom in the fact that most of the promotion routes require that the person be performing in an "exemplary manner".   Understanding the basics of D&C is actually above the norm for most senior members. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

What's so bad about senior adult regular members learning the basics of D&C? If you're going to play Air Force, either do it right or... well... wear the golf shirt!

[Short Field]

I never played Air Force - I was Air Force.  I wear the golf shirt 90% of the time, one of the two flight suits (blue or green) 9% of the time, and the white shirt with grey pants 1% of the time.   I only wear my USAF uniforms to USAF or AFA functions.

It is all a matter of comfort and no need to impress anyone.   

[Pylon]

Here in Gp 4, we require our new officers to attend a weekend OTS.  They learn drill to the same standards as Curry-level cadets... basic drill, facings, salutes, reporting to an officer, etc.  We even have cadet officers and NCO's help teach them.  It is fun to watch a group of 50-somethings in formation while a teenager says:  "I am Chief Master Sergeant Umpdefrat, and I will be your instructor.  At this time we will learn the right and left facing maneuvers."

How do you reconcile this with CAPR 35-5 paragraph 1-1?

1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

If the Group offers covering their Level I modules only on those training weekends, and they choose to cover more stuff than just the basic summary conversations, I don't see how it conflicts. 

If Squadron Commander Captain John Doe sits down with new SM Jack Smith for his Level I summary conversations and Capt Doe decides to go into more depth and cover more material with SM Smith, is that also a violation of the reg? 

Frankly, a weekend Officer Basic Course/Level I Workshop would be welcomed by me.  Any long-term volunteer at my non-profit employer needs to go through several days of orientation training, so I don't see this as uncommon or unwarranted.   I could easily think of 2-days worth of training and knowledge applicable to new members that could fill a weekend workshop.

[Hawk200]

Here in Gp 4, we require our new officers to attend a weekend OTS.  They learn drill to the same standards as Curry-level cadets... basic drill, facings, salutes, reporting to an officer, etc.  We even have cadet officers and NCO's help teach them.  It is fun to watch a group of 50-somethings in formation while a teenager says:  "I am Chief Master Sergeant Umpdefrat, and I will be your instructor.  At this time we will learn the right and left facing maneuvers."

How do you reconcile this with CAPR 35-5 paragraph 1-1?

1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

If the Group offers covering their Level I modules only on those training weekends, and they choose to cover more stuff than just the basic summary conversations, I don't see how it conflicts. 

If Squadron Commander Captain John Doe sits down with new SM Jack Smith for his Level I summary conversations and Capt Doe decides to go into more depth and cover more material with SM Smith, is that also a violation of the reg? 

Frankly, a weekend Officer Basic Course/Level I Workshop would be welcomed by me.  Any long-term volunteer at my non-profit employer needs to go through several days of orientation training, so I don't see this as uncommon or unwarranted.   I could easily think of 2-days worth of training and knowledge applicable to new members that could fill a weekend workshop.

I'll second that one. I think more than a few new members would like to have some more in depth training. The problem is that a lot of our present and longer time members lack the pride in Civil Air Patrol that existed decades ago. There's a lot of pushing only the bare minimum, and even that seems to be like pulling teeth.

Then again, maybe flight clubbers really shouldn't have to worry about things like uniforms, salutes or regs. That's not what they're here for. Kinda sad. Some of the cheapest flying out there, and they can't even be bothered to work for it.

[Ricochet13]

Don't be surprised if in the future at some point there is a division between those members appointed to officer ranks and others which will be appointed to NCO ranks.  The new OEM specialty track may be the basis for determining who is and who isn't wearing officer rank on uniforms. 

[Short Field]

Additional training on a volunteer basis is fine and I don't think anyone has objected to that.  However, creating additional training requirements at the local level in order to be promoted is against CAP regulations.   So the main thing you are teaching all the newbies is that CAP regulations can be ignored with impunity. 

[Eclipse]

Don't be surprised if in the future at some point there is a division between those members appointed to officer ranks and others which will be appointed to NCO ranks.

I'm going to be very surprised if that ever happens as there is no NCO system in CAP, and there never will be...

Now, let's all go and grind some beans, open a cold one (of your choice), or just sit back and see who isn't capable of restraining themselves from starting that argument in this thread instead of leaving it to the search function.

boop...beep...boop...beep....boop...beep...

[Gunner C]

Here in Gp 4, we require our new officers to attend a weekend OTS.  They learn drill to the same standards as Curry-level cadets... basic drill, facings, salutes, reporting to an officer, etc..

Apparently some of you in CAP just haven't figure out yet that the majority of CAP senior members have little or no interest in marching, drill & ceremonies -- that the way it is folks :angel:   

And it's served us so well.  Heck, you can go to any CAP squadron and just be OVERCOME by the professionalism. It's intuitively obvious to the casual observer. 

[Eclipse]

I only wear my USAF uniforms to USAF or AFA functions.

What else would you wear there?

I wear my blue CAP uniform to CAP activities.  There's a difference.

[Short Field]

^^^ Appropriate civilian attire.

[Eclipse]

^^^ Appropriate civilian attire.

I think you missed or ignored my point...

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I never played Air Force - I was Air Force.  I wear the golf shirt 90% of the time, one of the two flight suits (blue or green) 9% of the time, and the white shirt with grey pants 1% of the time.   I only wear my USAF uniforms to USAF or AFA functions.

It is all a matter of comfort and no need to impress anyone.   

Fair enough, but what ever happened to leadership by example? Especially for officers and airmen who work with cadets, D&C and customs and courtesies training is imperative.

If you were Air Force, you weren't playing. CAP, many times, on the other hand....

[Short Field]

^^^ Appropriate civilian attire.

I think you missed or ignored my point...

I wear the appropriate CAP uniform or authorized civilian attire to CAP functions.  I just don't buy into the "if you don't wear the USAF Style uniforms, you are not professional" view of too many CAPers.  There have been posts on here that if the member could not wear a USAF Style uniform, they would just quit CAP.  That compliments the view of others that if you don't meet the standards to wear a USAF Style uniform, you shouldn't be in CAP.  I find that an amazing attitude in a "professional" person.   I am in CAP to accomplish the mission in a professional manner and IAW CAP regulations - not look cool so I can impress my neighbors.  Leadership is not conveyed by the uniform option you wear but by the leadership skills you display and use.  I don't worry about my leadership skills - I had over 1200 USAF, USA, USN, USMC, and USCG personnel assigned under me when I retired. 

[RiverAux]

I'm always amused by the fact that we've got people that think you're a poser or out to impress your neighbors if you wear the AF style uniform while at the same time making a point of the fact that they choose only to wear the civilian style uniforms.  Basically, since they think anyone wearing the AF-style is a poser they don't want to wear it because they think everyone will think they are a poser. 

And at the same time we do have those who think you're not really a proud or contributing member of CAP unless you wear the AF-style uniform even though other options are available and are just as valid a choice under our current regulations. 

I personally am in favor of at a minimum dropping the civilian options and only having military style uniforms (both AF and corp), though I would prefer AF only.  But this isn't because I have made some value judgment about those who wear the uniforms I don't like.   It is because I think it is better for the organization as a whole to have a more a"uniform" and more "military" appearance. 

[Short Field]

Not all - but some.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I'm always amused by the fact that we've got people that think you're a poser or out to impress your neighbors if you wear the AF style uniform while at the same time making a point of the fact that they choose only to wear the civilian style uniforms.  Basically, since they think anyone wearing the AF-style is a poser they don't want to wear it because they think everyone will think they are a poser. 

And at the same time we do have those who think you're not really a proud or contributing member of CAP unless you wear the AF-style uniform even though other options are available and are just as valid a choice under our current regulations. 

I personally am in favor of at a minimum dropping the civilian options and only having military style uniforms (both AF and corp), though I would prefer AF only.  But this isn't because I have made some value judgment about those who wear the uniforms I don't like.   It is because I think it is better for the organization as a whole to have a more a"uniform" and more "military" appearance.

It would also help promote a cohesiveness and "team" mindset, and help us harmonize with our parent service, to ditch the cacophony of uniforms CAP is beleagured with and go with the Air Force uniforms and one non-Air Force option.

There wouldn't be the varying strata of members, delineated by uniforms. Instead, our uniforms would identify us with our duties, not so much our personal tastes or physical status.