Movement of CAP-USAF and State Directors to 1st AF and state National Guard

[Major Carrales]

What about the Air Force Reserve Command?  I would think that would be a nice fit.  Still a direct command of the USAF (not under state authority), but they are familiar with a citizen/airman type of role.

A bit better fit than a STATE DEFENSE FORCE model. 

[PHall]

What about the Air Force Reserve Command?  I would think that would be a nice fit.  Still a direct command of the USAF (not under state authority), but they are familiar with a citizen/airman type of role.

A bit better fit than a STATE DEFENSE FORCE model. 

AFRC only has a FEDERAL mission while the ANG has both a FEDERAL and a STATE mission.

The ANG model is a much better fit to CAP especially since 2000 when the Aux On/Aux Off came about.

I'm all for getting some "adult" supervision for CAP, Lord knows we could use it.

[RiverAux]

How is it that some many of you think you know better where CAP fits than the USAF?  Hubris...perhaps?

Because I have way more experience with CAP and what it can do than almost every officer in the AF (excluding those in CAP-USAF and not including those whose only CAP experience was as a cadet).         

[DNall]

How is it that some many of you think you know better where CAP fits than the USAF?  Hubris...perhaps

The Air Force is not some high and mighty all-knowing thing. It's just people, & they aren't any smarter or more entitled to determine where CAP or CAP-USAF belongs in the AF structure, or even how the AF operates for that matter, then anyone here. When people have good ideas, they are supposed to be brought to the collective thought process and academically discussed. That's what AU is all about, and publications like airpower journal in particular. You tell me all the time that CAP shouldn't think of itself with self-loathing. Well, you're right, it shouldn't. Our members are just as capable of coming up with good ideas that become policy as anyone else.

River,

You can't judge the importance of ES versus CP or AE by the amount of budget dedicated to it. It costs a lot of money to purchase/operate/maintain a huge fleet of aircraft/vans/comm gear. And that gear does get used as a public service, which has an operating cost. It costs very little to operate the cadet program to the extent necessary to achieve AF objectives.

My bigger point was our in-garrison mission is about CP & AE. Hence, we are when in-garrison tasked under AETC (just as AFROTC/JROTC are). That is the appropriate place for those programs. It doesn't matter if they would get the same support if under another MAJCOM or not, that is where they belong.

Our ES functions clearly do fall under 1AF, which is why we are OPCON to 1AF when activated for missions. That is not at all unusual in the way the military, and AF in particular, works today. I do realize 1AF is the modern parallel of the old continental air command, but the doctrine is significantly different. CAP belonging full-time to 1AF would not change anything. It would not open up any additional missions. 1AF already has full and complete access to CAP capabilities within the limits of the law & good judgment. They would not have us suddenly doing any other mission we are not doing today if we were reassigned. All that would happen is we'd become just one more resource in a pile of other resources, which doesn't bode as well for annual funding as under AU where idealistic concepts prosper.

I do think it would be good to allow ANG officer to do extra duty as CAP-RAPs for points (which is not currently allowed), but I don't think CAP going to any part of the guard structure is a good idea. And by the way, YES, each state does their own awards/badges/etc that are added to the uniform manual. More importantly, they all have different forms, regulations, policies, etc that govern everything from the mundane to the critically important. They fight the national structure and do what they want more times than not. We have enough problems with that in CAP already. We need greater centralization & more accountability to the federal AF, not to state structures. And also, the ANG may be a component of the Air Force, but it answers through it's Adjutant General (almost always an Army national guard officer) to the NGB (which is almost always headed by an Army national guard officer), which has a seat on the joint chiefs of staff now. It's a very weird balancing act between the state/NGB structure and the extent to which we answer to our parent branch. Again, more often then not, it's the state/NGB side of the structure that determines how things are going to be, not the parent branch.

[Major Carrales]

As always, DNALL has to take my ideological opposite stance.

How is it that some many of you think you know better where CAP fits than the USAF?  Hubris...perhaps

The Air Force is not some high and mighty all-knowing thing. It's just people, & they aren't any smarter or more entitled to determine where CAP or CAP-USAF belongs in the AF structure, or even how the AF operates for that matter, then anyone here. When people have good ideas, they are supposed to be brought to the collective thought process and academically discussed. That's what AU is all about, and publications like airpower journal in particular. You tell me all the time that CAP shouldn't think of itself with self-loathing. Well, you're right, it shouldn't. Our members are just as capable of coming up with good ideas that become policy as anyone else.

I'm sorry to break it to you my friend, but the USAF is our OVER LORD.  They control our destiny and allow us to do what we want only in a very narrow regard.  We can do lots of stuff, until they descide we have crossed the line.  Then they can smack.

I am confident that the USAF is the expert in knowing the position of CAP in its organization.  It is not for us to dictate our place in their system, it is ours to accept the missions, roles and functions they allow us to take in their organization.

Only after that is where our members are capable of coming up with good ideas that become policy.

As for self-loathing, when one looks down on CAP as "mickey mouse" just because it is not the REAL MILITARY or some other bupkes excuse because one lack's faith in CAP...I point to the efforts that prove that wrong.  Like deployments to Katrina, Rita and IKE (to which both you and I were involved in the latter, albiet in different locations)  I point to the volunteer spirit of the same mold that had minute men at Lexington and Concord.  That need to serve.

Those minute men weren't "soliders" in a regular army.  They were farmers, artisans and the like...ordinary people just like CAP is today.

[RiverAux]

You can't judge the importance of ES versus CP or AE by the amount of budget dedicated to it. It costs a lot of money to purchase/operate/maintain a huge fleet of aircraft/vans/comm gear.

I will stipulate that in terms of what the official party line of the AF and CAP is, all of our "3 missions" are supposed to be equal.  You will not find anyone in authority saying one of them is more important than another.

However, if you want to know what an organization REALLY cares about and REALLY thinks is its most important mission, look at where they spend their money.  That goes for government, private industry, or charitible organizations.

If the AF REALLY thought the "3 missions" were equal, you would see the AF fully-funding all wing cadet encampments so that cadets could attend at no cost.  The AF would be paying for rockets for cadets to build and launch.  If they cared as much about AE, your squadron shelves would be packed with brochures, booklets, books, etc. that the AF paid for and sent to each squadron for squadron use and for the public.  The AF would have bought every squadron a powerpoint projector so that members could be giving presentations to the public on the importance of aerospace.     

By the way, its is the CAP ES operational budget for that is 3-4 times bigger than the entire cadet budget.  This does not include comm, vehicle or airplane purchases.

For the record, I think the AF SHOULD be doing all the things I suggested so that we can do all that we're supposed to be doing.  Don't fault me for recognizing what they really think are the most valuable CAP programs. 

Sparky, you might want to take a look at various military professional journals.  Members of the military are always proposing changes in how their services are organized.  As a partial member of the AF family, CAP members should have that same ability to share their thoughts on CAP's place within the AF. 

[Sarge]

As a matter of clarity, Chief, NGB is now a bluesuit ANG guy. Gen Craig McKinley is now the boss. By the way, many states have a "blue" TAG, including mine. It is a non-issue for CAP, as even states with a "green" TAG have an Asst AG for Air thet is always "blue". I believe the ANG-CAP relationship is the way to go, organizationally and operationally. Our unit does a great deal with the ANG, from low-level route surveys resulting in 50-75 hours of flying each year to intercept training to assisting with family support and airshows. We are also beginning the augmentation program soon on UTA weekends, covering several slots for deployed personnel.

Rick Larson, Lt Col, CAP
Sq/CC, Sioux Falls Comp Sq. SD Wing
MP/MO/MS/SDCEM
Mitchell # unk
SMSgt, USAF

[lordmonar]

Changing who we fall under...would mean a change in where our money comes from.

Under AETC our cadet program, DDR, AE all fall under the big AETC/AU umbrella.  If we fell under ACC all the time it may be problematical for funding those things that ACC does not care about.

ACC would fund all our missions....because they would have to pay big bucks to do the same mission with USAF platforms.  But ACC could decide to pull CD/AE/DDR funding in a tight budget year if they "needed" the cash of ACC stuff.

Here is an example.

Back in the day communications fell under AFCC.  Some bright Chief of Staff decided that he wanted everyone on his bases to belong to the wing commanders.  The very first year.....the MAJCOMs diverted millions of comm infrastructure/maintenance dollars to pay for flying hours.  At my unit we ran out of money six months before the close out of the fiscal year.  AETC has the power to protect our (CAP's) money from over spending MAJCOMs...but 1AF does not have the same control as a MAJCOM.  If another numbered AF needed the money sitting around in 1AF's coffer (to pay for say a NCSA or Free Uniforms) then that money would simply disappear.

[DNall]

As a matter of clarity, Chief, NGB is now a bluesuit ANG guy. Gen Craig McKinley is now the boss. By the way, many states have a "blue" TAG, including mine. It is a non-issue for CAP, as even states with a "green" TAG have an Asst AG for Air thet is always "blue". I believe the ANG-CAP relationship is the way to go, organizationally and operationally. Our unit does a great deal with the ANG, from low-level route surveys resulting in 50-75 hours of flying each year to intercept training to assisting with family support and airshows. We are also beginning the augmentation program soon on UTA weekends, covering several slots for deployed personnel.

I'm aware Gen McKinley is ANG, but the great majority of NGB is not, which is also the case within states. The ANG is also currently moving a lot of fighter wings to predators, and the Army side is picking up a lot of UAVs too. And again, ANG works for NGB moreso than AF. You get a lot of divergent priorities & competitive influences dealing with AF, NGB, ARNG, governors, etc. You might as well transfer CAP to DHS for as close as they'd be to AF under that arrangement. In fact, that would make far more sense, but then it would erase CP/AE, the military end of CAP, and some of our ES mission in exchange for stuff civilian volunteers should never be involved in, so no net gain of mission.

Basically, CAP is in the best place already. The problems and limitations on CAP have nothing to do with where we are in the AF/govt structure. They have everything to do with how jacked up CAP is internally - both the nature of our volunteer membership and our own internal structure.

[isuhawkeye]

dont forget that in order to make these proposed changes you would have to fin d champions within all entities involved.  these champions would need to work hard to politic for any move.  Unfortunately I dont think that there are enough highly placed officials who care enough about CAP to take on this type of challenge

[O-Rex]

I can appreciate the insider's view from a CAP operational perspective.  I too am an Ops-centric member.  But sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.  Take a step back for a moment, look at our organization as a whole from the outside: two of our three missions are educational in nature.

Would it be nice to be under a USAF operational command, but if you're looking at CAP from the view high up in the DeptAF food chain, the choice is obvious

[RiverAux]

Under AETC our cadet program, DDR, AE all fall under the big AETC/AU umbrella.  If we fell under ACC all the time it may be problematical for funding those things that ACC does not care about.

How is that any different from our current situation where the majority of our budget (apparently going through AETC) is going for operational missions while only a minority is for cadet programs.  Switching that equation to having the majority of our funding coming from ACC for operations and having a minority going towards CP/AE would make more logical sense. 

[lordmonar]

Under AETC our cadet program, DDR, AE all fall under the big AETC/AU umbrella.  If we fell under ACC all the time it may be problematical for funding those things that ACC does not care about.

How is that any different from our current situation where the majority of our budget (apparently going through AETC) is going for operational missions while only a minority is for cadet programs.  Switching that equation to having the majority of our funding coming from ACC for operations and having a minority going toward CP/AE would make more logical sense. 

The difference is that AETC who controls our appropriated budget is not usually affected by surges in operations.  They have a very stable OPSTEMPO so they can plan better.  ACC on the other hand can be hit with a contingency or decide to send a squadron to some joint exercise that they did not plan for.  When that happens they have to find the money from somewhere.  MAJCOM HQ's control all of their subordinate units money.  It is easier to "steal" from ACC Peter to pay ACC Paul then it is to steal from AETC Peter to pay for ACC Paul.

Internally within CAP we always run the risk of AU diverting AE/CP money to ES....but because we ususally do a pretty good job of planning and funding for ES we don't have to do that very often.  If we do take a hit we usually will steal from ES training before digging too deeply into CP/AE funds.

The key point I am trying to make is that our current OVERLORDS understand and support all three of our missions, they are not as subject to changes in OPSTEMPO.  So we win because a) AETC is not as likely to need extra cash as ACC would, b) AETC values our CP/AE and ES missions more then ACC would, c) AETC is more likely to feed us competant officers at CAP-USAF than ACC would (what fighter jock wants to be in charge of CAP  ).

[heliodoc]

What is wrong with current AU/ AETC setup as it is?

Like mentioned before.... Wanna a real change?  Put it under DHS as is USCG, CBP etc for enforcement; CERT, VIPS, etc for volunteerism and grants..

Maybe then every one in CAP who needs to be up on ICS courses would have to be long before now...

Then CAP would have to fall under a true credentialing system like swiftwater rescue and others.

Some of that real fire and training could be, in some CAP'ers dream, a real Hawk Mountain experience

So maybe we need to start that rumor.... AF getting rid of CAP and getting absorbed by DHS!!!!

Or could that happen??

[ThorntonOL]

Not unless they change the law.

[heliodoc]

^^^^

Yep and look at how fast laws were changed to bring on DHS and its absorption of agencies...

Could happen with CAP , too..

[FW]

Hey, guys.  Nice conversation.  However, our appropriated funding goes through AETC; not comes from AETC.   If "we" were "transfered" to ACC or, any other AF command, things would remain basically the same.  It would be CAP-USAF which would be transferred, not CAP.   Remember, Civil Air Patrol is a civilian nonprofit corporation.  We are, like it or not, a civilian organization which receives federal funding.  Our relationship with the Air Force is solid and, if the SECAF or CSAF wants to put CAP-USAF into another command, it probably won't make any difference to us.  I think the better argument would be; who should the CAP-USAF/CC report to.  Right now, he/she reports to the AU commander (a 3 star).  IMHO, it may be more logical to have them report to a 1 star slot.  The more AF generals on our side the better.

[heliodoc]

FW

Good explanation...

Some folks here will argue the civilian non profit and round it out about being about the military and all that non combatant vs non combatant "stuff"

But yours is a short and concise, what appears to be reality

I had better watch it, the flaming will proceed or everyone will put a spin on it

[RiverAux]

It would be CAP-USAF which would be transferred, not CAP.   

True, as was mentioned in the first paragraph of this thread.  Everyone understands that and we've obviously been using "CAP" as a shorthand for CAP-USAF. 

What is wrong with current AU/ AETC setup as it is?

Read the opening post for my justifications.  I don't really argue that something is specifically wrong, rather that things would be better under 1st AF. 

[FW]

River, we "all" may understand that however, from the majority of the posts, there may be some confusion on how we (CAP) would operate or get our money or change our priorities.

I'm just making the point it won't.  However, I understand your first premise; it just won't make a difference to CAP.  Remember, there is an office at the Pentagon which has the responsibility of working the relationship between the Auxiliary and the Air Force.  It's this office which has the ear of the CSAF.  And, it is this office which can affect us most.