Restoration of adult member NCO chevron ranks?

[hhbooker2]

I could not help but notice that the U.S.R.C. asks for a sixty dollar fee to join and I gather its US$60 a year? Plantation, Florida also plays host to a group of people who wear  a field uniform like worn in Afghanistan by U.S. Army soldiers, but they have no patches on them and these people solicit money from passing motorists with large KFC type cardboard buckets we used to get Colonel Sander's Kentucky Fried Chicken. Its said some are not prior service, but that I cannot be certain, but there are others here in Florida who appear to me quasi-military? Florida Guard Association appeared to have a number of general officers, but they shut down as Florida has no state defense force and unlikely to get one. Why those groups don't wear a service uniform I do not understand? They appear to wear camouflage field uniforms and like someone said, no one is a private, specialist, corporal or sergeant and perhaps no warrant officers or maybe anyone not a colonel? We have a lot of retired U.S.Armed Forces people here, don't think they want to don a uniform, do see them at the VFW when we sometimes go there for Friday afternoon dinner. They have dances, music and some sort of machine like a slot machine that does not pay off in cash? Getting back to the C.A.P. and enlisted rank, seems unlikely anytime soon? I'd rather give my dues to the C.A.P., not keen on camouflage and combat boots! 

[Eclipse]

There's a lot of paramilitary groups all over the country that do and wear all sorts of things.

Some are benevolent, some benign, and some are actually belligerent against the government.  A lot of them just like to play commando.
Bringing action against them is expensive, complicated, and in some cases actually bolsters their position in whatever "community" they
exist.  Barring them doing something other then just wearing military uniforms, it's generally not worth the government's time to pursue it.

CAP, on the other hand, is under the direct control and authority of the USAF (through various channels), and the reality is that,
no matter what the guard, SDF's, or even "Tommy's Troopers" do, the USAF can dictate our uniforms all day long, and so far they
have chosen to to just that, to varying degrees.

My distance-based perception is that the USAF has been very reasonable to requests that go through proper channels, and
less so when our leadership acts unilaterally without thought to how our parent service might feel.

[SarDragon]

Back to the NCO thing.

I became a WO in CAP when I went on active duty, having previously been a C/WO as a cadet. I became an NCO in the Navy a year later. I had the option of being an NCO or officer in CAP, and chose officer.

The structure of CAP has never really lent itself to having an NCO corps to match the military. In the military there is a progression in skills and education related to a specific job. E-1 - E-3 are pure worker bees, NCOs have advanced job skills, and beginning supervisory skills, and senior NGOs are middle managers. CAP doesn't have enough jobs or diversity in structure to need all the extra boxes in the org chart that would come about from adding NCOs, or all enlisted ranks, to the mix.

Some of you want NCOs, but still haven't come up with a valid need.

[Ned]

Of course we have.  You just personally disagree with it. 

I could profitably employ a thousand NCOs in the cadet program tomorrow.  And the cadet program is the largest part of CAP.  Every cadet unit should have 2-3 NCOs to mentor and train cadets, and assist in program administration.  Every group, wing, and region CP shop should have 3-4 senior NCOs to train and coordinate the subordinate unit's NCOs, as well as assist in the administration of the shop.

It bears repeating that every single military organization in the world since the Romans has employed both officer and NCOs.  (Even Star Fleet had yeomen and Chiefs.).

And of course CAP has had an active NCO program for the majority of our existence.  Somewhere along the line the (recently departed) National Board apparently decided that Wilson, Curry, and Spaatz got it wrong when they included a vibrant NCO program in CAP.  I just wish they had left a message as to why.

I have been briefed that the CAP NCO program is pending approval at the Air Staff level.  We should get a final answer soon.

[Garibaldi]

I would trade in my Majority for a crack at being a senior NCO, like a SSGT or TSGT. I get more done as a "grunt" than as an administrator.

[stillamarine]

I would live to progress as an NCO rather than as an officer. But with no current affiliation with the military I'd be stuck. I believe it should progress with pd just like the officers but that's me. Don't see why it wouldn't work. There are 5 officer ranks I can make with just pd achievements. Align the 5 NCO ranks along the same achievements. But hey that's just my thoughts. Maybe when I affiliate over to the reserves I'll trade my bars in.

[Bobble]

I have been briefed that the CAP NCO program is pending approval at the Air Staff level.  We should get a final answer soon.

You've certainly got my attention, Sir!  But does that mean that A) The CAP NCO program is pending approval to start the development of said program from a "square one" status, or B) An actual draft CAP NCO program been submitted for review and comment as part of the approval process.  Just curious.

[Eclipse]

I have been briefed that the CAP NCO program is pending approval at the Air Staff level.  We should get a final answer soon.

Excellent, just what CAP needs, another artificial caste system to separate people even more, and / or cause and means
for members to further disassociate themselves from the whole of CAP by simply saying "I can't help, I'm a Cadet Program NCO (etc.)."

We already have cadres of pilots who will do nothing but fly, etc., etc.  Who's supposed to keep this ship running
if we keep finding more ways to let people specialize and disavow larger responsibilities?

In a volunteer organization, where SMWOG command squadrons and 2-stars empty trash cans, there is no
separated system of "doers" and "managers", at there isn't supposed to be.  NCOs exist to ensure the health, welfare, and preparedness,
of those at the lowest rungs who are sworn to execute the 1/2-baked ideas of the officers above them to the point of death, if necessary.

But in CAP there's no enlisted corps to "protect", essentially everyone in CAP is "enlisted" if you look at the distribution of duties.

This idea that NCO's can somehow be "more valuable" to training cadets then anyone else in similar circumstances simply isn't
true except at the most basic level of cadet training, and as we've seen in this and other recent threads, NCOs are reluctant
to "shed the mantle" even to the point of misguidedly encouraging cadets to delay promotion in favor of the "NCO experience",
which actually runs counter to the cadet oath and the curriculum.

We need tenfold of the NCOs we have to join CAP, not to be "NCOs", but to be members service the program and the
membership as it exists, and not try to reshape the cadet corps or the program as a whole into something it's not.

[Major Carrales]

The question has always been to identify the need for an NCO corps in CAP.  Yes, there is great merit in being a Non-Commissioned officer in the military, but in that context (the military) they serve a special function in the operation of a unit.  The have also "come up the ranks" to reach that position and are, some would say by that alone, more experienced in their fields and service than (as is pointed out) an ROTC 2d Lt that only as cadet experiences in a "lab setting" to prepare them. (and you all know what I refer to, no STRAWMEN please...lol) They, thus, represent a continued linage going back a long way that allows units to function.

Is that how NCOs would work in CAP?  Does a CAP unit function like a military unit? What translates and what does not?

Could the SMWOG that walks in and does not want to be an officer get a chance to be "enlisted?"How would CAP NCOs relate to CAP officers?  Would NCOs have to treat CAP OFFICERS as RM NCOs treat RM officers?  Could they command squadrons?  Wings?

The fact remains that CAP structure differs in style and function on so many levels.  We don't really have "enlisted" and "officer" person in the same sense that the military does.  Our rank/grade reflects movement in a professional development setting or some skill.

[RiverAux]

I may have been in CAP FAR longer than I've been in the Army, but I'm distinctly... uncomfortable wearing any CAP uniform that has my CAP Rank on it.

I think this is the problem -- many of those who want NCO ranks want it because they have a problem believing that the CAP system is valid simply because it is much easier to progress in than the real military.  However, you're missing the point is that a CAP Major is nothing more than a CAP Major.  It says absolutely nothing about real military ranks any more than it does when a police department uses officer ranks.  They're just not comparable. 

So, why should CAP institute a whole different rank system just because a tiny, tiny number of members basically feel that CAP officer rank is somehow an affront to the military? 

I could profitably employ a thousand NCOs in the cadet program tomorrow. 

The thing is that you have them right now.  They're already in CAP.  Unless you think that somehow this is going to cause a significant increase in recruiting of people that would only join CAP if they could become NCOs.  I think there is zero possibility of that. 

And quite frankly, if someone is only willing to join CAP as an NCO, then I'm not sure I really want them around because the implied attitude is that they don't think the rest of us deserve the CAP rank that we have earned through the CAP system. 

So, the idea is that we need former NCOs to be wearing chevrons in order for them to be effective in teaching cadets?  Where is the evidence that this is not happening now?  MSgt Snuffy Smith with 20 years in the military can't figure out how to teach basic drill while wearing Captain's bars?  The cadets ignore him now but will pay attention when he has stripes on? 

Somewhere along the line the (recently departed) National Board apparently decided that Wilson, Curry, and Spaatz got it wrong when they included a vibrant NCO program in CAP. 

There seems little evidence of a "vibrant" NCO system.  The CAP members that have posted here that were around when we had the program seem distinctly ambivalent about it if not downright hostile to it. 

So far as I can tell, the reason that folks think that NCOs have to be CAP NCOs rather than CAP officers is that the NCO rank is "real" and indicates that the person has BTDT.  But, if all we do for the "program" is allow them to promote up as CAP NCOs that almost immediately takes away any extra veneer of legitimacy that these folks would have.

Just to be clear -- I am extremely negative about the so-called program we have now or anything similar.  If we want to redesign the entire senior member program and make everyone work their way up through enlisted ranks to officers (with exceptions similar to what is seen in the military), I can see that having some value to CAP.  Obviously that isn't what is being considered. 

[Major Carrales]

now...if we had a system where people off the street were given Level I and served as an "airman" then trained in a specialty area to work up to a Senior Airman.  At that point, if there were some NCO course work that would make the into NCO grades with Officers being those in command of units of staff positions with promotion based on working in those squadron, groups, wings regions then we would have a system that would place a merit on the NCO as a stage of unit level development.

Issue with this...

1) We already have as "NCO corps" in the from of the Cadet NCO grades.  Confusion?  Redundancy?

2) We forget most units are understaffed as it is.  Do we have the personnel system wide to staff all positions?

3) Would an RM NCO be "offended" at a 10 years CAP developed NCO?

4) What distinguishes the CAP NCO from other officers?  Is it sort of a "club?"  Creating potentially more divisions than originally existed.

[Eclipse]

I'd hazard that there are more military O-6's and O-7(+)'s who are quietly and happily serving as CAP Lt Cols (and below)
and do not feel hamstrung by their inability to serve at their "real" grade, then there are currently NCO's from other services wearing stripes on their CAP uniforms.

If they can somehow cope, why can't NCOs?

Further, there are't NCO jobs in CAP.

There's only two actual roles in CAP for senior members - administrative staff positions engaged in the running of the
organization, and "operational roles" such as aircrew, etc.  Everything else is a derivative of that, and our current manning means in a lot of units (most?) these are the same people.

Any member who find themselves in the "pool" of non-assigned members (i.e not one of the above) are generally not
active enough to need any "care", and if they do, there's a staff officer who's job it is to guide those members into
one of the two categories above.

In a unit with 15 members, are we going to have two NCO's who's only job is to "care" for the other members who
don't need any "care"?

[Major Carrales]

My hope is that great planning, thought and vetting is going into any proposal to "revamp" the NCO corps.  Sometimes the desire to having something supersedes it's viability.  Without that mental "leg work" a haphazardly created NCO system will be more of a hindrance and spark more needles arguing.  Analysis, Synthesis and Evaluation of those plans is crucial; so much these days seems to lack that in favor of "gut" feelings or simple desire and want for something to exist...a strange sense of misunderstanding that places the "romantic" desire to have something regardless of it's function or non-function.

[Eclipse]

Somewhere along the line the (recently departed) National Board apparently decided that Wilson, Curry, and Spaatz got it wrong when they included a vibrant NCO program in CAP. 

When was there ever a "vibrant" NCO program in CAP?  "Seniors wearing stripes" does not equal a "vibrant program".

In my discussions with members still active who were in CAP in the 60's when the "program" was still in place, they
have indicated it was really nothing more then an extended PD program just as as it is today in the cadet cadre.  At least with the cadets they theoretically have some time to work with small squads as they work through the structure.

Also, in the time of Wilson, Spaatz, and Curry, the vast majority of American men had served in the military, most
as enlisted, and many as NCOs, so there was an inherent understanding of the paradigm, which frankly you can never really understand unless you have either lived it, or worked closely with people in that situation.  I certainly had no idea until I spent years working with PO's and Chiefs in their natural habitat.  The aura of the NCO, especially ones with
"heavy stripes", not to mention the inherent separation between officers and enlisted, has to really be "felt" to be understood.

CAP isn't going to "fix" the average person walking in the door with zero idea of the military except FMJ and Platoon, but if experience has taught us nothing, we're really good at misunderstanding situations and taking shortcuts that ultimately wind up in bad feelings and cliques instead of the intended cohesive force.

[Ned]

My hope is that great planning, thought and vetting is going into any proposal to "revamp" the NCO corps.  Sometimes the desire to having something supersedes it's viability.  Without that mental "leg work" a haphazardly created NCO system will be more of a hindrance and spark more needles arguing.  Analysis, Synthesis and Evaluation of those plans is crucial; so much these days seems to lack that in favor of "gut" feelings or simple desire and want for something to exist...a strange sense of misunderstanding that places the "romantic" desire to have something regardless of it's function or non-function.

And my hope is that professional volunteers like yourself have not prejudged and rejected a program you have not seen simply because you literally cannot imagine it working successfully.

While I haven't seen the package either, the very fact that there is a package, it was deemed worthy enough by our senior leadership, and is in the process of being considered and vetted by our AF colleagues at the highest levels suggests to me that there is at least some merit to the concept, despite the comments we have seen in this thread made by good officers who simply have never worked in a system with successful NCOs.

And I'll even grant everyone still reading this far that an successful NCO program is not necessary for us to continue at our current level of success.  Clearly we are doing OK currently, and the world will not end if we do not upgrade our current program.  Perhaps this is one of those "reasonable minds can differ" things.

But to me, at least, the question becomes "how much better we can become -- not just in CP, but all of our missions -- with the advantages offered by a successful NCO program?"  And to judge by every single other military (and as far as I know, paramilitary) program in the world, at least somewhat better and more successful.  A mixture of officers and NCOs is the mainstream position.  We somehow became the exception.

Let's see what our AF colleagues think of the proposal.

[Major Carrales]

Ned, do not misunderstand.   I hold no prejudiced views...I believe that the "Devil's Advocacy" needs to be done before things are put into effect rather than the "why didn't anyone think of this" afterwards.  To often are things just "leaped into" with both legs.

These things I say are not as much "criticism" as they are a desire to "think critically" about it.  I am a Squadron Commander in a frontier squadron, I am almost 2 hours from the nearest USAF post and, while I have all sorts of interest in the cadet program, recruiting on the senior side has not been successful.  Now, some rumor comes to light of an NCO program.  What effect is it going to have?  We all have the right to ask that question and ask of our leadership that the process be vetted, planned and made subject to "Devil's Advocacy."

I know I don't want "NCO CORPS at ANY COST" because people have wanted it.  If that is the case, I will point of when this was being done is Iowa a long time back when there was talk of an NCO corps.  What made that effort fail and what was different this time.  All valid questions.

[Eclipse]

But to me, at least, the question becomes "how much better we can become -- not just in CP, but all of our missions --

By actually working the program we have, without the distraction of trivial change.

[NCRblues]

Wait wait... What proposal? I'm confused I guess.

Where did this come from? Is this a left over of the defunct national board? Why is a member of the BOG saying he has not seen it, but it's pending approval at the AF?

[Ned]

Wait wait... What proposal? I'm confused I guess.

Where did this come from? Is this a left over of the defunct national board? Why is a member of the BOG saying he has not seen it, but it's pending approval at the AF?

I guess I'm confused about why you are confused.

I'm saying I haven't seen it because I haven't seen it.  The BoG sets policy, we don't approve every piece of mail that leaves NHQ.  Clearly our existing policy is to have an NCO program because we currently have an NCO program.  (IOW, if the BoG decided to change our policy and eliminate the NCO program, we could do that. But we haven't.)

We don't wordsmith regulations or micromanage how existing programs are run.  (Arguably, that is one of happy results from recent changes in  CAP governance.)  So there is no reason for the BoG to see and approve modifications intended to improve an existing program.

But our AF colleagues do in this particular case.  So at the direction of our National Commander, the staff carefully assembled a package which was sent forward for approval by our AF friends.  No big mystery.

[Eclipse]

Clearly our existing policy is to have an NCO program because we currently have an NCO program.

Allowing members to wear stripes from another service is not an NCO "program".