Restoration of adult member NCO chevron ranks?

Started by hhbooker2, August 11, 2013, 05:36:03 PM

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ol'fido

The notion that NCOs have to function in the "traditional" NCO role to be effective or contribute in quaint but inaccurate. Anyone who thinks that NCOs can't work effectively in their rank without "junior enilisted" has never seen a Special Forces detachment in action.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

DennisH

Quote from: RiverAux on August 16, 2013, 03:54:46 AM
The question is whether or not that same value can be imparted to the cadets by someone wearing CAP officers rank as well as someone wearing a CAP NCO rank.  I suspect the hundreds or thousands of former NCOs that have chosen to serve as CAP officers would say that they can do it just as well wearing bars as stripes. 

The problem is that CAP has no administrative need NCOs as do the armed forces.  The simple fact is that the military needs NCOs to ensure that work gets done and for oversight of non-NCO enlisted.  CAP doesn't work that way and probably never will. 

The thing is that if a CAP NCO were performing the same sort of duties in CAP as they were in the military they would actually be serving as great examples to cadet NCOs.  But that isn't the case.  All a CAP NCO can do is tell someone how an NCO can act, they really aren't going to have a lot of chances to SHOW them, which is a much better way of teaching.  That being the case, a former NCO that is a CAP Lt. Col. can just as effectively share their experience as an NCO with a cadet as can a CAP NCO.  I don't think its going to make much difference to the cadet what is on their shoulder or sleeve -- its their history that counts. 

Until we have a demonstrated need for NCOs, the "program" such as it is is basically represents a backwards form of elitism whereby former NCOs choose to stand out from everyone else.  Although I am certainly not advocating it, it would make more logical sense for most CAP members to be enlisted and that only former military officers would be allowed to wear officer rank.  That makes more sense than lumping together non-prior service and former military officers in the officer corps while only allowing prior NCOs to be CAP NCOs. 

The cadet role model argument is probably about the most common one presented for a CAP NCO corps, but the fact that only a 50 or so (as of the last time I heard a number a few years ago) CAP members that have chosen NCO rank shows that most former NCOs don't really think that is a good enough reason to be an NCO rather than a CAP officer. 

If CAP comes up with a much stronger reason to have NCOs things might change, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Sir, I understand what you are saying and agree with most of it, I also understand their is no demand for an NCO to do administrative duties. What I was addressing is teaching drill, inspections and the bread and butter skills of an NCO. A former NCO can do much more than tell a Cadet how to be an NCO, he/she can demonstrate tye proper techniques by example. Reading regulations and taking online tests doesn't fully impart some training and maybe because I am a visual and learn by doing type of troop I have a different view. If we are not going to touch on these skills then why do we have NCO ranks in the Cadet formations? Then again I am trying to reprogram myself and adjust to the CAP way of doing things and the light is slowly coming on. After all it's only been a few months since I retired and ten months since I joined CAP. My point was never about standing apart or out from the officers but then again that pesky self view gets in the way.
I am adjusting just like many other former NCO's are doing.
1st Lt Hicks, Dennis M.
207th Composite Squadron
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Assistant Testing Officer
Supply Officer
From an old school 1SG after being told he need to be more PC to conform to the new army:
I've been a PFC three times in my career. What makes you think that I'm afraid to become one again.

DennisH

Quote from: ol'fido on August 16, 2013, 11:41:53 AM
The notion that NCOs have to function in the "traditional" NCO role to be effective or contribute in quaint but inaccurate. Anyone who thinks that NCOs can't work effectively in their rank without "junior enilisted" has never seen a Special Forces detachment in action.

Sir the Special Forces model is the exception not the rule. And all those NCO' were not made over night.
1st Lt Hicks, Dennis M.
207th Composite Squadron
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Assistant Testing Officer
Supply Officer
From an old school 1SG after being told he need to be more PC to conform to the new army:
I've been a PFC three times in my career. What makes you think that I'm afraid to become one again.

Bobble

Quote from: DennisH on August 15, 2013, 11:40:42 PM
I also had a trained response of "Don't you call me Sir, I work for a living" which is not well received.

In the Navy we used to say, out of earshot of any Zeroes of course, "Don't call me 'Sir', I know who my parents were."  Of course, that was B.P.C., illustrating just how old I yam ('cause I yam what I yam).
R. Litzke, Capt, CAP
NER-NY-153

"Men WILL wear underpants."

RiverAux

Quote from: ol'fido on August 16, 2013, 11:41:53 AM
The notion that NCOs have to function in the "traditional" NCO role to be effective or contribute in quaint but inaccurate. Anyone who thinks that NCOs can't work effectively in their rank without "junior enilisted" has never seen a Special Forces detachment in action.
Keep in mind that quite often they are serving as the defacto NCO corps for foreign units that they are advising.  If the foreigners had functioning NCOs, they wouldn't need SF teaching them how to clean their weapons. 

QuoteWhat I was addressing is teaching drill, inspections and the bread and butter skills of an NCO
Understood, just why is a CAP NCO going to be able to do that more effectively than a former NCO serving as a CAP officer? 

Frankly, focusing the efforts of former NCOs, especially high-ranking ones, on teaching basic cadet stuff is a massive waste of their talents.  Sure, if a former NCO wants to do it, thats great and I'd appreciate their efforts, but I'd want them to be doing a whole lot more for CAP. 

QuoteIf we are not going to touch on these skills then why do we have NCO ranks in the Cadet formations?
Keep in mind that cadets have to work their way all the way up the ranks.  Senior members don't.  They work their way up as officers. 

There actually are a fair number of folks here that would like to see CAP seniors start off as airman and have to work their way up through NCO ranks to become officers (with exceptions that parallel some of what the military does).  But, thats not what we've got. 

flyboy53

#45
Quote from: RiverAux on August 16, 2013, 07:51:28 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on August 16, 2013, 11:41:53 AM
The notion that NCOs have to function in the "traditional" NCO role to be effective or contribute in quaint but inaccurate. Anyone who thinks that NCOs can't work effectively in their rank without "junior enilisted" has never seen a Special Forces detachment in action.
Keep in mind that quite often they are serving as the defacto NCO corps for foreign units that they are advising.  If the foreigners had functioning NCOs, they wouldn't need SF teaching them how to clean their weapons. 

QuoteWhat I was addressing is teaching drill, inspections and the bread and butter skills of an NCO
Understood, just why is a CAP NCO going to be able to do that more effectively than a former NCO serving as a CAP officer? 

Frankly, focusing the efforts of former NCOs, especially high-ranking ones, on teaching basic cadet stuff is a massive waste of their talents.  Sure, if a former NCO wants to do it, thats great and I'd appreciate their efforts, but I'd want them to be doing a whole lot more for CAP. 

QuoteIf we are not going to touch on these skills then why do we have NCO ranks in the Cadet formations?
Keep in mind that cadets have to work their way all the way up the ranks.  Senior members don't.  They work their way up as officers. 

There actually are a fair number of folks here that would like to see CAP seniors start off as airman and have to work their way up through NCO ranks to become officers (with exceptions that parallel some of what the military does).  But, thats not what we've got.

Myself included.

However, I have never bought into the notion that there is no room in the CAP for an effective NCO Corps just because we have cadets that fulfill that role or that NCOs would serve as effective mentors of cadets. Neither is true.

The CAP enlisted program was dissolved in the early 1970s largely because of misuse. It was easier to promote an individual at a squadron level to a rank they had no concept of, as a means of throwing a bone as a reward, then it was to have that senior member complete the necessary training for officer appointment. I remember a time when Level I or its earliest version was actually voluntary. Then about the time the NCO program was eliminated, Level I became mandatory -- which was a very good thing. I was a CAP technical sergeant then (1971-72) with about five years in the program (mostly as a cadet) and the concentration I remember from that era was less about professional development and more about ES training. Most of the courses I remember taking were programmed learning guides that came from the Bookstore. Then everything changed dramatically -- for the good.

The real reason for a functioning NCO Corps would be to better filter out those individuals who really aren't suited to be officers -- like the two star what ever that was in an earlier post. The problem is that you are right that the current personnel model of the senior member program doesn't truly incorporate such a program unless you did away with the flight officer grades and came up with something like officer trainee -- which I also believe is a better solution then starting new senior members as airmen.

Face it, officers are taught to be managers. Airmen and NCOs work through a system that starts essentially as a trainee and then moves through a supervisory process. I have yet to meet a pure CAP officer or cadet that truly understands that difference.

It also has nothing to do with Special Forces teams and that's really not an effective example because there is always an officer somewhere in the process. Although a perfect team would be manned according to a table of organization, the reality is a mixture of junior enlisted and NCOs performing very specific functions that do not mirror CAP operations or units.

Yes, I'd like to see a CAP NCO Corps, but the model I would expect requires the same PME and skill-level training that I went through -- and I realize that part of the Air Force doesn't fit volunteers. I also can tell you, having been a CAP technical sergeant, I had a completely different perspective of that rank when I finally pinned it on in the Air Force in 1983 -- not to mention what it really meant to be a master sergeant when I achieved that rank in 1991.

Which brings up another point. I was formally appointed a sergeant in 1981 during a formal ceremony and then again when I made master sergeant -- which actually included an oath. I was made to feel the reality and gravity of the rank I was being promoted to. I don't really see anything like that any where in the senior member program.

lordmonar

As a stripe wearing CAP NCO.....I will throw my 2 cents into the ring.

I do think that there is a place for CAP NCO's in the both the senior and cadet squadrons.

They become the keepers of Drill and Ceremonies, Military Courtesies, and Uniform wear.

They teach cadets and senior how to march, salute, wear their uniforms correctly.  The teach both seniors and cadets the military traditions.  And they teach everyone customs and courtesies.

I wrote a long post on how we can integrate NON prior service personnel into the NCO corps and set up a way for them to progress in CAP's PD program and promote up the NCO ranks.

When I made the decision to turn in my oak leaves for my E-7 Stripes I got with my commander and mapped out my role as his "first sergeant" (yes I know CAP does not have first sergeants.....my E-services duty title is advisor to the commander) and what I wanted to do for the squadron.

We have actually started teaching D&C classes to the senior members.......basically the curry movements.   It is working out pretty well so far.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

RiverAux

Quote from: lordmonar on August 17, 2013, 02:33:48 AM
I do think that there is a place for CAP NCO's in the both the senior and cadet squadrons.
They become the keepers of Drill and Ceremonies, Military Courtesies, and Uniform wear.
They teach cadets and senior how to march, salute, wear their uniforms correctly.  The teach both seniors and cadets the military traditions.  And they teach everyone customs and courtesies.

All fine things, but why were you were prevented from doing them as an officer?

The cadet program is designed to be run by CAP officers and they should be more than capable of handling that part of the program.  If not, they haven't been properly trained.  We don't need CAP NCOs to do any of that when the exact same people can do the exact same teaching as part of the current program.

I think it is quite clear that so long as we are basically operating under the current CAP senior member grade system that there will never be more than a handful of people that choose to be NCOs.  It just isn't a popular choice and there is no reason to expect that it ever will be.  Almost every former NCO in CAP has made a conscious decision that being a CAP NCO does not provide any significant advantage either to themselves or to CAP. 

Folks, its like the golf shirt vs military style uniforms -- the people have spoken and with a few exceptions here and there, the golf shirt is becoming the dominant CAP senior member standard uniform for just about everyone but ground team members.  Many of us here may not like the fact, but there it is. 

Change the whole CAP system around to make most seniors into enlisted folks and NCOs will then serve a useful purpose.  Failing that, they will continue to be oddballs. 


Pingree1492

With respect to RiverAux and Eclipse, I think you guys are viewing this issue through your own paradigm of being a longtime CAP member.  I certainly had the same views myself as a 13-year member and CAP Major before I enlisted in the Army.  You seem to be viewing this as someone who's been in the program for a long time, and understand how it works as a separate entity to the military.  There is no real need in CAP for the officer/enlisted separation that exists in the military, and I know I used to have problems understanding why someone would join CAP and *not* want to take the 'normal' route of Senior Member-Officer, and progress in the Professional Development Program in that manner.  Why would someone want to join, and not be an officer, thus separating themselves from everyone else and removing (or at least distancing) themselves from the collegial and (unpaid) professional camaraderie that exists in a well-run unit?  I guess before I would always attribute it (at least sub-consciously) to a bit of elitism or arrogance on the part of the former NCO (and lets admit- many good, long-time NCO's are rightly very confident in their abilities, and that can seem like arrogance to non-military folks). 

Now that I'm a (very junior) NCO in the service, I can completely understand where members like the 1SG are coming from.  I may have been in CAP FAR longer than I've been in the Army, but I'm distinctly... uncomfortable wearing any CAP uniform that has my CAP Rank on it.  Those that argue that I can bring the skills I have as an NCO to the officer corp in CAP are completely correct... I just would really prefer remaining an NCO.  It's not necessarily rational on my part, but I feel I've earned my stripes in a much more real manner than I earned that oak leaf.  It'll probably take a while being active in CAP again to be comfortable with it, but you can't help what you feel!

So, I'm not sure how this will play when read by a third party- I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone.  Mainly trying to convey why someone would rather remain an NCO in CAP even without a well defined role, because there is such a vast amount of respect for the rank, tradition and history that comes with being an NCO it's hard to not to want to bring that into CAP.  I'll probably leave my grade in CAP alone and continue to progress as an officer, as many great former-NCO's I've known have done before me. I just wanted to try to illustrate why someone would want to bring the amazing traditions of the American NCO into CAP with them.
On CAP Hiatus- the U.S. Army is kindly letting me play with some of their really cool toys (helicopters) in far off, distant lands  :)

Private Investigator

Quote from: Pingree1492 on August 21, 2013, 10:33:12 AMNow that I'm a (very junior) NCO in the service, I can completely understand where members like the 1SG are coming from.  I may have been in CAP FAR longer than I've been in the Army, but I'm distinctly... uncomfortable wearing any CAP uniform that has my CAP Rank on it.  Those that argue that I can bring the skills I have as an NCO to the officer corp in CAP are completely correct... I just would really prefer remaining an NCO.  It's not necessarily rational on my part, but I feel I've earned my stripes in a much more real manner than I earned that oak leaf.  It'll probably take a while being active in CAP again to be comfortable with it, but you can't help what you feel!

So, I'm not sure how this will play when read by a third party- I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone.  Mainly trying to convey why someone would rather remain an NCO in CAP even without a well defined role, because there is such a vast amount of respect for the rank, tradition and history that comes with being an NCO it's hard to not to want to bring that into CAP.  I'll probably leave my grade in CAP alone and continue to progress as an officer, as many great former-NCO's I've known have done before me. I just wanted to try to illustrate why someone would want to bring the amazing traditions of the American NCO into CAP with them.

You really made some good points. After being an NCO on active duty when I was recruited into CAP I was more interested in making First Sergeant then 2nd Lt. I think the members who retired from the military as an NCO come to look at being a CAP officer as a second career. After being a Group Commander, Squadron Commander and Wing IG, I accept being a CAP officer. But some days I rather be the old Sarge in the Comm Shack having my coffee and teaching Cadets communications.   8) 

flyboy53

#50
I think the real problem here is that it poses a threat to the CAP officer corps.

How often have you heard the term "career lieutenant or captain" or I'm only here to fly or operate the radios and there is a deliberate ignoring of the professional development program. There befalls a level of apathy in the CAP senior member program -- the officer corps -- where people don't adhere to standards, become stagnant, grumble a lot, go home when things don't work their way and eventually drop out of the program.

If the CAP NCO Corps worked the way many in this forum, who are positive to such a concept, hope it would work -- given our NCO backgrounds -- units would have NCOs who rigorously comply with standards and aggressively hold their counterparts to the same standard. I really think that's what really scares a lot of long-time opponents to such a rank structure because it might force a different paradigm on how the CAP senior members operate, work and conduct themselves.

Now just watch me get slammed for my terms on this one!

DennisH

I think a lot of  it has to do with self view, while a Former NCO regardless of service should be able to impart knowledge and experience  as a CAP officer I think, at least from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT. No insult, no superiority complex, no disrespect of any kind intended to the hard working seniors in the program.  My Commander has me at the beginning and the end of each meeting call the Squadron to attention. It must have to do with my natural tendency to revert to my NCO voice. Iam sure their are hundreds of CAP officers out there that can do the same.
As for PD I never intended to imply that I would just show up for meetings and leave the heavy lifting for others. I think and have been told that I do my fare share and then some. I don't have an ego and my last feeling died years ago. I push other Seniors around me to get promoted and advance all the time. I want others to out distance me and out rank me. Is it really that wrong to not put oneself above others? I don't plan on vegetating and becoming stale, I plan on learning since I a very new to the program. My biggest handicap is my prior service, I am relearning the CAP Air Force way which in itself is a task.
For me at least I thinks iris kore of being out of my comfort zone and in a strange new place, I guess I will adjust in time, but as long as I am contributing and the program doesn't suffer from having a stubborn old Former  1SG then it's all good.
1st Lt Hicks, Dennis M.
207th Composite Squadron
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Assistant Testing Officer
Supply Officer
From an old school 1SG after being told he need to be more PC to conform to the new army:
I've been a PFC three times in my career. What makes you think that I'm afraid to become one again.

Eclipse

Quote from: flyboy1 on August 21, 2013, 12:00:57 PM
I think the real problem here is that it poses a threat to the CAP officer corps.

NCO's aren't a threat to anyone, there's simply no place for the NCO / Officer separation of duty and responsibility
in a volunteer organization.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: DennisH on August 21, 2013, 04:08:44 PM...from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT 1st Lt.

If you're "barking" at anyone in CAP, you're doing it wrong.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: DennisH on August 21, 2013, 04:08:44 PM
I think a lot of  it has to do with self view, while a Former NCO regardless of service should be able to impart knowledge and experience  as a CAP officer I think, at least from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT. No insult, no superiority complex, no disrespect of any kind intended to the hard working seniors in the program.  My Commander has me at the beginning and the end of each meeting call the Squadron to attention. It must have to do with my natural tendency to revert to my NCO voice. Iam sure their are hundreds of CAP officers out there that can do the same.
As for PD I never intended to imply that I would just show up for meetings and leave the heavy lifting for others. I think and have been told that I do my fare share and then some. I don't have an ego and my last feeling died years ago. I push other Seniors around me to get promoted and advance all the time. I want others to out distance me and out rank me. Is it really that wrong to not put oneself above others? I don't plan on vegetating and becoming stale, I plan on learning since I a very new to the program. My biggest handicap is my prior service, I am relearning the CAP Air Force way which in itself is a task.
For me at least I thinks iris kore of being out of my comfort zone and in a strange new place, I guess I will adjust in time, but as long as I am contributing and the program doesn't suffer from having a stubborn old Former  1SG then it's all good.


It comes with being the leadership officer, and if the CC want to use you for that purpose.


I get to do it from time to time, I don't think I was chosen for the role due to my command voice learned as a cadet.




P.S. And you're [darn] right I enjoy seeing the cadets jump from their seats when they hear proper command voice!

DennisH

#55
Quote from: Eclipse on August 21, 2013, 04:47:46 PM
Quote from: DennisH on August 21, 2013, 04:08:44 PM...from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT 1st Lt.

If you're "barking" at anyone in CAP, you're doing it wrong.

Sir, prepatory command an command of execution, to some barking to others being an NCO, haven't been doing it wrong for the last 35 years, don't seem to be doing it wrong now. Barking isn't yelling or demeaning Cadets or Seniors, to many giving basic commands sound like they are whispering. Commands are made to be heard or not made at all.
1st Lt Hicks, Dennis M.
207th Composite Squadron
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Assistant Testing Officer
Supply Officer
From an old school 1SG after being told he need to be more PC to conform to the new army:
I've been a PFC three times in my career. What makes you think that I'm afraid to become one again.

Garibaldi

Quote from: DennisH on August 21, 2013, 07:17:43 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 21, 2013, 04:47:46 PM
Quote from: DennisH on August 21, 2013, 04:08:44 PM...from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT 1st Lt.

If you're "barking" at anyone in CAP, you're doing it wrong.

Sir, prepatory command an command of execution, to some barking to others being an NCO, haven't been doing it wrong for the last 35 years, don't seem to be doing it wrong now.

Yeah, I read that wrong too, figured it out on a re-read. But you see the point. Some people would consider barking a command to be "STRAIGHTEN THAT GIG LINE, PRIVATE!" rather than a preparatory command.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

DennisH

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 21, 2013, 06:41:20 PM
Quote from: DennisH on August 21, 2013, 04:08:44 PM
I think a lot of  it has to do with self view, while a Former NCO regardless of service should be able to impart knowledge and experience  as a CAP officer I think, at least from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT. No insult, no superiority complex, no disrespect of any kind intended to the hard working seniors in the program.  My Commander has me at the beginning and the end of each meeting call the Squadron to attention. It must have to do with my natural tendency to revert to my NCO voice. Iam sure their are hundreds of CAP officers out there that can do the same.
As for PD I never intended to imply that I would just show up for meetings and leave the heavy lifting for others. I think and have been told that I do my fare share and then some. I don't have an ego and my last feeling died years ago. I push other Seniors around me to get promoted and advance all the time. I want others to out distance me and out rank me. Is it really that wrong to not put oneself above others? I don't plan on vegetating and becoming stale, I plan on learning since I a very new to the program. My biggest handicap is my prior service, I am relearning the CAP Air Force way which in itself is a task.
For me at least I thinks iris kore of being out of my comfort zone and in a strange new place, I guess I will adjust in time, but as long as I am contributing and the program doesn't suffer from having a stubborn old Former  1SG then it's all good.


It comes with being the leadership officer, and if the CC want to use you for that purpose.


I get to do it from time to time, I don't think I was chosen for the role due to my command voice learned as a cadet.




P.S. And you're [darn] right I enjoy seeing the cadets jump from their seats when they hear proper command voice!


Roger that Sir! :)
1st Lt Hicks, Dennis M.
207th Composite Squadron
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Assistant Testing Officer
Supply Officer
From an old school 1SG after being told he need to be more PC to conform to the new army:
I've been a PFC three times in my career. What makes you think that I'm afraid to become one again.

lordmonar

Well.....there is two ways to look at this.

On the surface level "there is no need for the NCO/Officer distinction in a volunteer organization (i.e. CAP)" I agree.  With CAP normally arranged with all the senior members are officers....yes there is no need for NCOs.

On the other level.......where CAP ranks mean absolutely zero in the sense that AD ranks mean.....and we have discussed this ad nasieum in other threads......it makes no difference if I'm an NCO or Officer.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DennisH

Quote from: Garibaldi on August 21, 2013, 07:21:05 PM
Quote from: DennisH on August 21, 2013, 07:17:43 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 21, 2013, 04:47:46 PM
Quote from: DennisH on August 21, 2013, 04:08:44 PM...from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT 1st Lt.

If you're "barking" at anyone in CAP, you're doing it wrong.

Sir, prepatory command an command of execution, to some barking to others being an NCO, haven't been doing it wrong for the last 35 years, don't seem to be doing it wrong now.

Yeah, I read that wrong too, figured it out on a re-read. But you see the point. Some people would consider barking a command to be "STRAIGHTEN THAT GIG LINE, PRIVATE!" rather than a preparatory command.


Sir, I see what you mean, I don't conduct uniform corrections with the Cadets, that's for their chain of command, sometimes with a little whisper from me if they miss something.  I do my best to stay out of their buisness so they can learn without meddling from me. The NCOs are getting it and these days they are running around squaring things away by themselves for their officers. It's a real nice change from what was going on.
1st Lt Hicks, Dennis M.
207th Composite Squadron
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Assistant Testing Officer
Supply Officer
From an old school 1SG after being told he need to be more PC to conform to the new army:
I've been a PFC three times in my career. What makes you think that I'm afraid to become one again.