Prank the new guy

[RRLE]

I was part of this same discussion on a SDF board recently. To try to make this short - the defenders of hazing, pranks and bullying (which it all is in disguise) try to pass it off as good clean fun. At least some of your victims (yes I used the word) will not perceive it as such and PERCEPTION IS REALITY.

At best you can hope for is that they just get ticked off. At worse, you may have triggered a revenge seeker. They will get even. You cannot control how they get even. And their rationale is YOU STARTED IT.

So unless you are willing to take the consequences don't even think about hazing, pranking or bullying anyone because you never know who your are going to be dealing with.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Another case where SPPT is needed in CAP. What, you never heard of SPPT? It's Senior Protection Program Trainings, same as CPPT only more advanced.

To save us from ourselves...

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I remember things like exhaust sample from the HWMMV, you have to get the keys to the LZ, we need a new can of rotor wash, and my favorite was,,, you have to remember the old Prk-e-7 radio... I don't... But it was still funny sending a private to a SFC asking for pr*ck E-7 batteries. The irritating thing though, I loved sending new guys out for chem light batteries... Supply would then send them over to Bravo co and they would send them to Charlie, and so on and so on. And if the supply guys were really good, they could have the poor guy make two to three trips around the brigade before they got it. But after Iraq, in early 2007, I sent one after some chem light batteries, and he came back with AAAs, and I looked at him like WTF??? And he showed me a new chem light thingy that actually ran on batteries. I was irritated.

My absolute all time favorite "hazing" memory was when I was new in the Army. E-3 out of basic, and really big on ES as a cadet, I knew about map work. So they told me to go to supply and get a box of grid squares. So I asked for a map, and cut it into each grid square. I handed the Corporal a box of a map cut into tiny grid squares. No one else thought I was funny but me and the 1SG. Awesome time, I was smoked for the next three hours. But well worth it, because it was the first thing I was sent for, and they wouldn't be able to send me for anything else stupid.

[ol'fido]

SPPT? Hmm...Discussing the ways seniors prank each other might almost make RST(required staff torture) interesting, Almost.

[bflynn]

The difference between pranking or hazing is how the target reacts to it.  So before and during the joke, you don't know whether you're playing a practical joke or you're hazing them. 

Seniors are (or are supposed to be) mature enough that we do not need regulations to tell us how to behave.  Playing a joke on a new person is inconsistent with the core value of Respect.  As you cannot know in advance how a new person will react to it, Respect requires that you withhold from pranking someone.

[AngelWings]

The difference between pranking or hazing is how the target reacts to it.  So before and during the joke, you don't know whether you're playing a practical joke or you're hazing them. 

Seniors are (or are supposed to be) mature enough that we do not need regulations to tell us how to behave.  Playing a joke on a new person is inconsistent with the core value of Respect.  As you cannot know in advance how a new person will react to it, Respect requires that you withhold from pranking someone.

Security Forces Going Away

They all must be hazing this poor gent. With the logic you've stated, giving a new guy any extra work (which I've seen is very common in all organizations). If the person really doesn't want to be played with, than they should state it. Then there is a respect problem. But when you have a good warning that is going to happen, it is your responsibility to set things straight.

[abdsp51]

The difference between pranking or hazing is how the target reacts to it.  So before and during the joke, you don't know whether you're playing a practical joke or you're hazing them. 

Seniors are (or are supposed to be) mature enough that we do not need regulations to tell us how to behave.  Playing a joke on a new person is inconsistent with the core value of Respect.  As you cannot know in advance how a new person will react to it, Respect requires that you withhold from pranking someone.

So I guess you NEVER played a joke on anyone?

[Major Lord]

Does blood pinning count as a prank?

Major Lord

[abdsp51]

Does blood pinning count as a prank?

Major Lord[/quoted]

IMO no. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Does blood pinning count as a prank?

Major Lord[/quoted]

IMO no.

That is what my post earlier was referring to. The Army considers it hazing, so we were told to stop... But that didn't stop us. It happened to those before us, and it happened to us, and I'm sure it's still happening to them today. I have scars (ha... My phone corrected scars to SARS no I don't have SARS) from my blood pinnings, and no, I didn't mind it, it was another group of people accepting me into their group. It was an honor.

[Flying Pig]

Does blood pinning count as a prank?

Major Lord

When I was promoted I was promoted to Cpl in the Marines, I was in my B's....tan shirt and blue trousers. I had my Cpl stripes tagged by a fist in formation by a Captain, and my blood stripe (red stripe down the side of a Marines blue trousers) tagged by a dead leg from the 1st Sgt and a punch in the gut by my Plt Sgt.  Grunt life is a little  .  That was prob 15 yrs ago now.  Didnt bother me in the slightest.  But I would imagine the culture is alive and well after the lights go out

[PHall]

Just remember, there is a Cadet Protection Program, there isn't a Senior Protection Program.

This comes under the heading of "No joke is too cruel if it's funny enough." But remember, pay backs are a b****.

[bflynn]

So I guess you NEVER played a joke on anyone?

Of course I have.  One went wrong.  Later I realized was disrespectful of me to do it.

This comes under the heading of "No joke is too cruel if it's funny enough." But remember, pay backs are a b****.

I'd say that it comes under the heading of No joke is respectful if it's cruel enough...

[bflynn]

They all must be hazing this poor gent.

Yes, I would qualify that as hazing. 

Senior enlisted of each of the five branches agree that hazing is incompatible with the military. -

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/03/military-hazing-not-tolerated-enlisted-leaders-say-032212/

If that isn't enough for you, Secretary of Defense Panneta has stated that hazing will not be tolerated in the military branches.  I'd presume that includes the civilian auxillaries.  This includes all personnel.

With the logic you've stated, giving a new guy any extra work (which I've seen is very common in all organizations). If the person really doesn't want to be played with, than they should state it. Then there is a respect problem. But when you have a good warning that is going to happen, it is your responsibility to set things straight.

this is a common mistake - preventing hazing is not the responsibility of the victim. 

As far as giving extra work - no, that is not hazing unless it is meant to be degrading, insulting, dehumanizing or to cause injury.

CAP is about 20-30 years behind on this.  The services started working on this 20 years ago.

[Eclipse]

CAP is about 20-30 years behind on this.  The services started working on this 20 years ago.

Those with experience in these matters know that CAP is actually ahead of the situation and in line with the DOD policy on hazing.

[Major Lord]

To more directly answer the question of the original poster, I have never heard of any pranking or initiation rites for new senior members. I suppose its possible that your squadron has its share of former military or greek-system fraternities that have such a tradition, but I have never heard about anything like this anywhere in CAP. On the other hand, they will now have you worrying for 8 months, so maybe that IS the prank!

Major Lord

[bosshawk]

And keep an eye out for the black van.

[abdsp51]

And the Air Force Times should not be used as an official source for policy either.  The AF especially the DoD has had a zero tolerance policy for as long as I can remember.  CAP has had an anti hazing policy since I was a cadet and that was back in the mid 90s.  Does it still happen sure it does, but actions taken after the fact are the determining factor. 

The youtube clip shown can be a good example of hazing, but again how many would consider the tacking of stripes hazing as well?  Or Better yet how about fini flights that occur service wide, can that not be considered hazing as well?  In the clip I see an old way in the defender field of saying bye to a fellow co worker for whatever reason. 

There is hazing and then there is good natured ribbing and having fun. 

[NCRblues]

The youtube clip shown can be a good example of hazing, but again how many would consider the tacking of stripes hazing as well?  Or Better yet how about fini flights that occur service wide, can that not be considered hazing as well?  In the clip I see an old way in the defender field of saying bye to a fellow co worker for whatever reason. 

That video is actually pretty calm. I would have been very VERY offended if I was not given a proper send off. I detest the traditions VS. hazing debate.

[AngelWings]

They all must be hazing this poor gent.

Yes, I would qualify that as hazing. 

Senior enlisted of each of the five branches agree that hazing is incompatible with the military. -

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/03/military-hazing-not-tolerated-enlisted-leaders-say-032212/

If that isn't enough for you, Secretary of Defense Panneta has stated that hazing will not be tolerated in the military branches.  I'd presume that includes the civilian auxillaries.  This includes all personnel.

With the logic you've stated, giving a new guy any extra work (which I've seen is very common in all organizations). If the person really doesn't want to be played with, than they should state it. Then there is a respect problem. But when you have a good warning that is going to happen, it is your responsibility to set things straight.

this is a common mistake - preventing hazing is not the responsibility of the victim. 

As far as giving extra work - no, that is not hazing unless it is meant to be degrading, insulting, dehumanizing or to cause injury.

CAP is about 20-30 years behind on this.  The services started working on this 20 years ago.

When someone is forwarned of any danger, isn't it up to them to make a move? Unlike other clubs, we are subjected to a higher standard and to respect someones decision to not want to be initiated the traditional way. We can get reported and get in some SERIOUS trouble if they report us. That cloud is enough to stop a traditional initiation that could be close to hazing.

The man in the video, along with all participants, willingly accepted it. It is a right of passage for them. It makes someone feel like part of the family...oddly.