Arizona senator has lofty plans for Civil Air Patrol

[Major Carrales]

One you have people who only do CAP "for the money" we lose something most important about what makes CAP work.  The heart of a true volunteer. 

If we paid CAP members, it would radically change the culture of CAP.  I would speculate that some 87% of CAP's current members would not be able to commit to extended such service and a new wave of members would replace them.  CAP would then be rolled into the Air National Guard (after all, why have two air militias) and fade into oblivion.

Disagree on all your points, it will make us over to be more professional.I would hire someone that served for free, and is already in CAP first. I have had ex military pilots tell me, they will not fly for Free.  Its only a matter of when.  There will be huge need for experienced pilots. 
D

You fundamental fallacy is that the Civil Air Patrol is not pilots alone. 

I submit that the inherent worth of Civil Air Patrol is the economic edge that unpaid volunteers bring.  Start making the Civil Air Patrol a huge significant "line item" in the US defense budget; where salaries, benefits and other items create a "mole" to "whack" and the Civil Air Patrol will lose its viability.

As a lawmaker in these economic times (if I were one) looking for the cost-benefit analysis to make cuts; as Civil Air Patrol exists now it SAVEs money via community service.  If it were a paid force, I would consider moving it into the Air National Guard as an extention of some "small aircraft/recon/SAR" function.  It would not have an inherent need for existance.

Also, the Cadet Program keeps us alive, I will again submit that CAP exists as it is because there is value in Emergency Service, Aerospace Education and Cadet Programs.  Tinker with that balance and you are likely to lose supporters on the Hill and in the Community.

Let's not start "redefining" CAP again in the image we want.  Let's deal with and barter for the realities that exist.  Nothing stops us from being "professional" now...save self-loathing, lack of self-worth brought on by a misunderstanding of what CAP IS and the ridiculous "apples/oranges" arguments brought about when people make specious comparisons between CAP and the US Military/Law Enforcement.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I LIKE being a voilunteer and I will fly for free.  I have a unit of officers who feel the same way.  We don't need mercenaries, we want volunteers.

[BillB]

Sparky.
During World War II CAP members WERE paid a per diem. And they were still volunteers. There are many misions CAP has taken part in where per diem has been paid to CAP members. If such a wage was authorized, it should be for housing, meals and expenses only. It's been proposed in another thread that CAP should be moved from USAF to the National Guard Bureau as part of the Air National Guard. That makes sense in that the uniforms remain the same, but I don't know what effect it would have on the cadet program.

[RiverAux]

"Per diem" is generally considered reimbursement for food and lodging and is not a wage.  CAP members can receive per diem on missions now, though you have to get pre-approval and it isn't common. 

Also, the Cadet Program keeps us alive, I will again submit that CAP exists as it is because there is value in Emergency Service, Aerospace Education and Cadet Programs.  Tinker with that balance and you are likely to lose supporters on the Hill and in the Community.

We could drop our aerospace education function and not miss a beat, at least so far as external AE since we do so little of it now anyway. 

[Al Sayre]

Also, the per diem is limited to $25.00 per day.  During DWH we found that this won't even cover 3 decent meals a couple of bottles of water and doing your laundry at the hotel free laundromat.  Yes, I know you can eat 3 meals at McD's and Subway and come in around $20.00, but that isn't very sustaining in a high tempo environment.  If we want our people to eat healthy, then we need to provide for them.  It isn't fair to ask someone to give up a week or two of their vacation time from work (equivalent to a fairly large real money donation) to spend it providing a service for free and not at least reimburse their incidental expenses - hotel, food, laundry etc.

[RiverAux]

Also, the per diem is limited to $25.00 per day.  During DWH we found that this won't even cover 3 decent meals a couple of bottles of water and doing your laundry at the hotel free laundromat. 

Just where is that limited?  CAP regulations?  AF regulations?  Federal law?  I know that standard federal per diem rates are much higher than that (though they depend on where you go). 

[Major Carrales]

"Per diem" is generally considered reimbursement for food and lodging and is not a wage.  CAP members can receive per diem on missions now, though you have to get pre-approval and it isn't common. 

Also, the Cadet Program keeps us alive, I will again submit that CAP exists as it is because there is value in Emergency Service, Aerospace Education and Cadet Programs.  Tinker with that balance and you are likely to lose supporters on the Hill and in the Community.

We could drop our aerospace education function and not miss a beat, at least so far as external AE since we do so little of it now anyway.

I tend to agree that it is our most anemic area.  Still, I have made many presentations to Middle Schools and Elementary Schools...but to larger groups....not so much.

[SAR-EMT1]

Don't forget that most every state in our nation has had an organized SDF or State Guard functioning as a Reserve of the National Guard in one manner or another, expecially when the times Guard is federalized.

I'm not sure how many still exist. Big ones that were in effect during World War II included PA, IN, CA, OH, and NY. PA's was deactivated after WWII. I'm not sure what exists in AZ. I do know, however, that NY has a State Guard that did active service during Sept. 11 and, at one point, could field a force of 9,000 men and women. NY also is organized so that there is a State Guard component of the Air National Guard.

Also, most CAP Wings have active MOUs that allow CAP to assist state government agencies as necessary --as evidenced by county Emergency Management who can request CAP assistance through their state agencies and the Counter Drug Program, which usually requires a local law enforcement sponsor who requests the missions. Besides, CAP did a similar mission in WWII along the border. Wasn't that what Southern Liaison Patrol was all about?

As far as Posse Commutatis, how does that apply when the CAP would only be performing an aerial mission similar to Counter Drug. It isn't CAP's role to arrest anyone in that mission, only to observe and report, why wouldn't border patrol be any different?

What's funny is my state actually had legislation at one time forbidding the formation of an ARNG style SDF. Currently, there is wording in the state code authorizing a state naval force (for Lake Michigan) however, I've never seen / heard of it actually existing.

The northern portion of my state has always been terrified of guns and uniforms, so I'm not holding my breath.

[JeffDG]

What's funny is my state actually had legislation at one time forbidding the formation of an ARNG style SDF. Currently, there is wording in the state code authorizing a state naval force (for Lake Michigan) however, I've never seen / heard of it actually existing.

The northern portion of my state has always been terrified of guns and uniforms, so I'm not holding my breath.

What's interesting is that the Constitution specifically authorizes things like the National Guard on land, but conspicuously absent is any language permitting the States to maintain naval forces at all.  That power is reserved solely to the feds.

[RiverAux]

What's funny is my state actually had legislation at one time forbidding the formation of an ARNG style SDF. Currently, there is wording in the state code authorizing a state naval force (for Lake Michigan) however, I've never seen / heard of it actually existing.

Actually Gov Blogo signed an Executive Order to reactivate the Illinois Naval Militia but apparently nothing beyond that ever happened.  According to a table compiled in 2006 of militia laws, an Illinois State Guard is authorized by 20 IL. Compiled Stat. 1805/3 and 20 IL. Compiled Stat. 1815/2.  I haven't verified that myself.

[JohnKachenmeister]

What's funny is my state actually had legislation at one time forbidding the formation of an ARNG style SDF. Currently, there is wording in the state code authorizing a state naval force (for Lake Michigan) however, I've never seen / heard of it actually existing.

The northern portion of my state has always been terrified of guns and uniforms, so I'm not holding my breath.

What's interesting is that the Constitution specifically authorizes things like the National Guard on land, but conspicuously absent is any language permitting the States to maintain naval forces at all.  That power is reserved solely to the feds.

Many states have Naval Militia.  The Constitution doesn't mention an Air Force, either.

[RiverAux]

Many states have Naval Militia. 

Actually only 4 states have active naval militias right now (AK, NY, OH, SC, and a few states have naval components within their SDF but might not be considered true naval militias)  and only about half the states even have provisions in their state laws allowing for them (almost every state has provisions for an SDF though only about half have active ones right now). 

[SAR-EMT1]

Defending the borders is one of the Constitutionally mandated duties of the Federal Government.   If the responsibility of providing border security against a foreign power is an issue of National Defense, CAP can't play, since we are non-combatants ( Although I would love to take a poll of members to see who would take up arms if called upon)


Major Lord

Do it...