Arizona senator has lofty plans for Civil Air Patrol

[Flying Pig]

we also have to remember that arizona is under some tough times with a literal war to its south, and washington DC willing to do little to help, with violence rising every day, i can see why the government of Arizona needs all the help it can get whe it comes to protecting its citizens.

Funny,  the states of Texas, New Mexico and California are all on the border too and they don't seem to feel the need to do this.

But they need to.

[PHall]

Arizona has by far the worst of the problem however.

and why are so many people opposed to using CAP resources, illegal immigration is a national security threat,a llong with smuggling.

Because I don't want a CAP member shot while "patrolling" the border.
This is a job for the "professionals" who are trained and equipped for the job. Not undertrained and unequipped "volunteers".

[Major Lord]

Defending the borders is one of the Constitutionally mandated duties of the Federal Government. Naturally, they are too busy having hearings on major league baseball and establishing National Che Guevara day to be inconvenienced by carrying out their actual sworn duties.  If the responsibility of providing border security against a foreign power is an issue of National Defense, CAP can't play, since we are non-combatants ( Although I would love to take a poll of members to see who would take up arms if called upon)

If on the other hand,  protecting the border is a Law Enforcement role, we can't play because ( at least in our own minds) we are subject to the Posse Comitatus Act, an act, which should be pointed out, has dozens of statutory exemptions, and has never resulted in a prosecution. ( Even when the National Guard smoked a church full of women and children in Waco Texas, a practice I believe should be strongly frowned upon in CAP)

Another case exists that would allow us to carry out our "benevolent" role, and that is to search the border areas for "lost hikers" ( i.e, criminal aliens who were robbed, poor navigators, or could not carry enough water) and vector the Border Patrol in to help those poor innocent victims who were merely trying to pack drugs into the U.S., practice their criminal trades in a more lucrative locales, or just coming to steal U.S. citizens identities and criminally avoid taxes while working under the table. i.e, undocumented liberals......

Sheriff Joe Arpaio has a nice solution, which is to use his power as Sheriff to summon the Posse Comitatus Which is well within his power, and I understand that there is no shortage of volunteers; Many retired Law Enforcement. Although I am sure he would like the help of our aircraft, I think he knows that a lot of CAP people are not, shall we say, temperamentally or emotionally suited for actual law enforcement work.

Major Lord

[SABRE17]

yes but cap wouldn't be involved in the actual enforcement of the law, we would merely be a platform and resource for local agencies to utilize to accomplish their mission

[JohnKachenmeister]

Sabre has a point.  Depending on the exact mission, we could provide a ride for a deputy (or an Arizona Militiaman).  The pax would report activity and call in resources, not the CAP member.

Do NOT discount the "Rescue" mission.  With additional resources, CAP could, flying unarmed patrols, call in groups of persons walking through the desert.  Maybe they're illegals, maybe they're birdwatchers.  We'll let the guys with guns on the ground make that call.

As long as we are not in direct combat, we are in combat support, and therefore carrying out the non-combat missions of the Air Force.  Calling in targets from 1000 feet to forces deployed to engage those targets is not direct combat.

[Major Lord]

Right. Much depends upon whether we are acting under the direction of law enforcement, in which case we are arguably "Police Agents" or merely some airborne neighborhood watch program  reporting the position of "possible lost hikers". Our CD "angels" dance on the head of that pin all the time, and I have never heard of a criminal case thrown out because CAP insisted that they were not under LE control. To me, CAP flying border missions makes a lot of sense, but the current administration is not terribly interested in resolving the crime problem at the border. They are way too involved right now X-raying nuns and groping our junk.

Major Lord

[SABRE17]

and as CAP, our mission capabilities need to evolve along with what society needs, that's why I'm so worried about our future with the 121.5 ELt  searches, we need to evolve to work around the new 406 mhz ELT's. after WWII we evolved, cause with the exception of south if key west, there aren't to many submarines off our coast...

[Spaceman3750]

we need to evolve to work around the new 406 mhz ELT's

We did. The 406s have a 121.5 signal that we use to DF. There is nothing to DF on 406, just a 1 second data burst every 50 seconds.

[sarmed1]

...illegal immigration is a national security threat...

Illegal immigartion itself is not a national security threat, there is not a secret army of undocumented Mexicans forming an operating base or terroist cells with the intention of engaging in direct combat or otherwise planning to destabilize and overthrow the US for the glory of the red, the white and the green.  Illegal immigrants are here for pretty much one thing, to work like busy beavers and earn big american bucks (compared to the peaso) to take/send back home to the family.

The problems are much more abundant than "National Security":
Drug trafficking is likely the largest criminal issue here
Human Traffiking and explotation are also big issues (the "coyotes" take these peoples money in exchange for getting them across the border to a waiting job...usually other illegal jobs or otherwise akin to slave labor or just take their money and leave them in the desert to rot)\
The closest tie in you can make to a national security issue is that if the border is so easily crossed by a bunch of Joe Blow civilians toting infants and small children, how easy is it for someone like a terrorist or 2 to sneak in or sneak in some bad bad CBRNE type weapon.  But if that was the case you would also hear about how we need to beef up our protection on the northern border...its just as vast nothingness in many parts up there too.....

Lets be a little more realistic here.  The way Homeland Security is, if they realistically believed that there was a threat to National Security via the US/Mexico border they would be all over the place with body scanners, pat downs and xray machines and roving gun jeeps and attack helicopters etc etc etc.  For the most part no one wants to spend that kind of money to stop a bunch of people that are just coming here to try and get a job doing the things our own citizens are too lazy to do themselves....National Security is just an attempt at a rallying banner to drum up support to dump money into the illigal immigration problem that frankly no one outside of the Border States really cares about.

mk

[JeffDG]

protecting the border is a Law Enforcement role

With respect to this statement.  Protection of national borders is the sine qua non of a nation's military...it's why nations created armies in the first place...it's not a law-enforcement function.

Now, just because it's a military function doesn't make it a combatant function.  In the absence of declared hostilities, borders can be quite peaceful, and can be patrolled in a non-combatant role.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I non-concur with sarmed's analysis.

While SOME of the illegal border crossers are, in fact, people seeking money for their families and who are willing to work in conditions which are substandard-to-inhuman by our standards, not all of them are benign.

Chavez of Venezuela has teamed up with the Arab terrorist states, and is actively teaching Spanish to committed Jihadists so they can infitrate the US under the cover of being Mexican campesinos.  Drug gangs are particularly violent, and cross into the US with impunity.  That's why Phoenix has the highest rate of kidnapping in the US.  Americans have been killed, and even if we know who the culprits are, Mexico will not extradite to the US.  They have safe haven there after killing Gringos.

In 1916 Pancho Villa raided Columbus, NM, and that began the Mexican Punitive Expedition.  You SHOULD know this, since it was the first time the airplane was used in combat by US Military forces.  Now the raids occur so frequently and with such ferocity that we have ceded large tracts of public land to Mexico and warn Americans not to enter because it is too dangerous.

This sounds like a war to me.  If not a war, at least a low-level insurgency/infiltration operation.

And you have WAY more confidence in DHS than I do.

[SABRE17]

to sarmed, if you can smuggle drugs and people in, the you can smuggle terrorists and weapons in, this what one dirty bomb in any us city would do the economy. unfortunately it may take just that to finally lock down the borders, like it took a rash of bombs in planes to get the US to stop accepting packages from certain countries.

[Flying Pig]

sarmed1

.National Security is just an attempt at a rallying banner to drum up support to dump money into the illigal immigration problem that frankly no one outside of the Border States really cares about.

Wow. 

[SABRE17]

there are plenty of people, even up here in the deep blue north east who would support a stronger border, i know cap pilots that would fly those missions if they had the chance.

[Eclipse]

^ Seriously.

[JeffDG]

...illegal immigration is a national security threat...

Illegal immigartion itself is not a national security threat, there is not a secret army of undocumented Mexicans forming an operating base or terroist cells with the intention of engaging in direct combat or otherwise planning to destabilize and overthrow the US for the glory of the red, the white and the green.  Illegal immigrants are here for pretty much one thing, to work like busy beavers and earn big american bucks (compared to the peaso) to take/send back home to the family.

To be precise, illegal immigration is not, per se, a national security threat.  It is, however, a symptom of a national security threat.  A nation that cannot control its borders ceases to be a sovereign entity.  Control of a defined piece of real estate is the very essence of nationhood and sovereignty.

[LtColRAKing]

As far as the state paying for border patrol, Arizona is broke. They can't even support education what alone border patrol.

The border issue is state and federal problem. The resolve should come from both though.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Arizona is broke, as is California, from supporting illegal aliens.  They get free education, free medical care, food stamps, welfare, WIC, ADC, and all other kind of govt. aid yet they NEVER pay taxes, and send the money back to Mexico.  Money in circulation turns over about 2.5 times its value in economic activity, unless you take it OUT of circulation by sending it to circulate elsewhere.

Border security sounds like a good investment.  Cut off the inward flow of illegals to cut off the outward flow of money.

[PHall]

Arizona is broke, as is California, from supporting illegal aliens.  They get free education, free medical care, food stamps, welfare, WIC, ADC, and all other kind of govt. aid yet they NEVER pay taxes, and send the money back to Mexico.  Money in circulation turns over about 2.5 times its value in economic activity, unless you take it OUT of circulation by sending it to circulate elsewhere.

Border security sounds like a good investment.  Cut off the inward flow of illegals to cut off the outward flow of money.

California isn't broke from supporting Illegal Aliens. It's broke because the entire budget process has become unworkable due to 40 plus changes to the State Constitution that have been passed in the last 30 years through ballot initiatives that mandate certain funding levels for various programs. The state legislature actually controls about 40% of the budget.

[Flying Pig]

CA pays billions in supporting illegals.  Education, medial treatments and incarceration.  Billions that could be used other places.  Now, the State would just find something else to spend it on the next day, but at least it wold be spent on Americans and people who actually belong here.  I did a personal study, by no means scientific, when I was working the street. In a week, about 60% of my calls for service were calls dealing with illegals.  A lot dealing with domestic violence or child abuse and loud parties.  Believe me, when I say parties...You have NO IDEA!!!  Im talking hundreds of people and two deputies.  Maybe 3-4 if we are fat that night on deputies!  These parties can take a couple hours to disperse. Then you end up finding dope, underage drunks, etc.  So dont laugh when I say we spend our time "breaking up parties!"
The bulk of my vehicle stops were illegals and a lot of DUIs.  And believe me, despite what politicians like people to believe, illegals ARE NOT afraid to call the cops for help.  I laugh every time I hear Nancy Pelosi talk about "people in the shadows". Illegals are not the slightest bit concerned about the local PD or Sheriff deporting them.  Someone needs to put a $ sign on those stats.  Im sure its not hard.  But any study like that would be "racist" although the illegals aren't all Mexican.  Many east Indians in my AO as well who are illegals.  Then when you go to the local schools for calls, and I can bet that most of the kids there are children of illegals knowing the areas I work.  Again, $$$.
Illegals on Probation!  Thats the one I like. Yes, CA puts illegals on probation vs deporting them.  Who knows why.  Again, $$$. 

Just shut off the incentives, and the illegal immigration problem will pretty much sort its self out.  It really is that easy.  No education, your kids don't get to be citizens if mom and dad are hear illegally and NO jobs.  Heavy penalties for people who hire illegals. We don't have to chase them all down, they will weed themselves out.  Every county has illegals to some extent. They just don't cater to their every need like the US does.   If you want to get into drug trafficking.  The majority of cases I work on, the dealers are illegal, but you cant take that into account when your working the case.  Otherwise, if you could go after them for simply being illegal, things would be a lot easier.