Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on November 26, 2006, 05:11:35 PM
...What would YOU do?  The order is clearly in violation of 60-1.  You probably won't be covered by insurance in the event of a crash.  But on the other hand, there is a clear mission requirement, and you can fly the mission without violating any laws or FAA regulations.

Seriously, how would you handle this?

My direct answer is "go salute yourself, SIR!"   

My next act would be to call the Wing CC, or State Director and have that IC immediately relieved of Command.

Your FIRST responsibility is self and crew safety, including liability.  It is stressed at every training session, etc., that regs and rules are there to protect you, not hamper the mission.

The "don't be a cowboy" sentiment is correct here.

If they need the plane that bad, all they have to do is fly a transport pilot down to it and move it - the plane could be signed out of the mission until its moved - without a Mission Pilot its effectively grounded anyway.

Too often IC's get tunnel vision and start believing they really are the calvary and no one else is around to help.

This is also what ORM is for.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 04:15:52 AM
Your FIRST responsibility is self and crew safety, including liability.  It is stressed at every training session, etc., that regs and rules are their to protect you, not hamper the mission.

Amen. That's why I made the statement that, even if I got the blessing from everyone from the Wing king to the NOC, and everyone said "yeah, fly the plane", there's no way I'd be putting anyone else on board that aircraft. It's bad enough if there's a mishap and I'm not covered under the liability insurance, it's worse if there's someone else on board who's also not covered, and whom I am responsible for as pilot in command.

You guys all make very good points, and I can't say that I disagree with any of them. 

But... and I did this on purpose... I specified that this was a high-profile mission.  One being scrutinized by the media.

Also, you do not have the full knowledge of the IC's predicament. 

Now, lets say you guys do as you have mentioned, which range from "Salute" you, Sir  to secure clearance from the Wing/Region/National commander.  The IC then trucks a crew up to your position, you truck your GT to the new search site, and a couple of hours of search time is lost. 

The plane is found eventually, and evidence shows that the pilot, a popular senator, and his family survived the crash but died of injuries awaiting rescue.

Now:  Respond to the CNN Reporter asking why a pilot, qualified under FAA rules but a mere 2 months late on a checkride that is NOT required by the FAA, did not return the plane to the base in time to save the beloved Senator and his lovely family.  Why, Captain, did you leave those poor children to die after watching their parents die?

And no fair saying the PAO has to answer it.   

"All requests for information must go through the mission information officer."


Assuming I have permission to discuss this from the IC/Wing king, I would explain that simply holding a pilot's license does not give anyone permission to operate a CAP aircraft, and that our standardization and evaluation program is there for the protection of our pilots, aircrew, property, and aircraft. And since the member in question is not a current CAP airplane pilot or mission pilot, he was forbidden by regulation to operate the aircraft. It is a sad situation, and it's unfortunate that the chain of events played out this way, however, sending an aircraft up with a non-CAP qualified pilot plays a huge risk in making another casualty for us to have to find.

Plus, since when do CNN reporters have MD licenses? How do THEY know that kids had to watch their parents die? How do THEY know the time and cause of death of any of the passengers on board? They could have been dead 2 hours prior to the forced landing of the CAP aircraft, which makes this a mute argument.


This is why they don't let me talk to people with cameras.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on November 27, 2006, 05:53:33 PM
You guys all make very good points, and I can't say that I disagree with any of them. 

But... and I did this on purpose... I specified that this was a high-profile mission.  One being scrutinized by the media.

Also, you do not have the full knowledge of the IC's predicament. 

Now, lets say you guys do as you have mentioned, which range from "Salute" you, Sir  to secure clearance from the Wing/Region/National commander.  The IC then trucks a crew up to your position, you truck your GT to the new search site, and a couple of hours of search time is lost. 

The plane is found eventually, and evidence shows that the pilot, a popular senator, and his family survived the crash but died of injuries awaiting rescue.

Now:  Respond to the CNN Reporter asking why a pilot, qualified under FAA rules but a mere 2 months late on a checkride that is NOT required by the FAA, did not return the plane to the base in time to save the beloved Senator and his lovely family.  Why, Captain, did you leave those poor children to die after watching their parents die?

And no fair saying the PAO has to answer it.   

As for PAO element, we take OPSEC to mitigate the problem of people like terrorists and journalists.

Seriously...

Well, its the "9-11" comission all over again.  Finger pointing...CAP gets a bad rep. for having procedures that led to the death of a family.

It's the no-win senario played out.

What's the answer Kach?

There is no answer.  [mess] happens and sometimes people die.

Life isn't a movie and you're not Ethan Hunt. 

We cannot staff or fund for every contingency. There are plenty of times that FD and PD departments fail their mission because of lack of funding or broken equipment.

We are a volunteer organization, doing all we can with limited resources, and like all other professional organizations, we have rules and regs that protect everybody.

What do you tell YOUR kids when they are homeless and destitute because, through no fault of your own, you break the plane and it is found that you are not legal to fly it, thus have to pay for it.

If you're not legal, you don't fly.  Period.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 07:57:44 PM
There is no answer.  [mess] happens and sometimes people die.

Life isn't a movie and you're not Ethan Hunt. 

We cannot staff or fund for every contingency. There are plenty of times that FD and PD departments fail their mission because of lack of funding or broken equipment.

We are a volunteer organization, doing all we can with limited resources, and like all other professional organizations, we have rules and regs that protect everybody.

What do you tell YOUR kids when they are homeless and destitute because, through no fault of your own, you break the plane and it is found that you are not legal to fly it, thus have to pay for it.

If you're not legal, you don't fly.  Period.

I agree totally...my initial response to the "Senario" placed merit on Regs being their for a reason...not an annoyance.

Eclipse is right, there is no right answer.  Either action, fly or don't fly, carries with it an element of risk.  Events beyond your control sometimes determine the outcome.

Real world:  I had to take a company I commanded on a two-day road movement from home station in Inkster, Michigan (near Detroit) to Ft. McCoy, in western Wisconsin.  Being the dedicated, professional officer that I am, I found the movement order in the files that the previous company commander used, changed the dates, times, and signature block, and had my clerk type it up.  Among the coodinating instructions in the movement order were instructions for an armed security force to guard the weapons.

A colonel who commanded another unit, and who didn't like me, pointed out to our commanding general that only a field grade officer in command could authorize armed security on a convoy.  I was then a captain.  The general then told me hat I should not arm my security element.

I wrote a memo asking the CG to reconsider, and pointing out that I had to take the convoy through several high-crime areas, and several areas where right-wing militias were operating.  I also pointed out that armed security on convoys had been standrad for many years, including the year from which I copied the movement order.

The CG's aide came to me the night bfore my convoy was to leave, and said:  "Captain, the General has read your recent memorandum, and has directed me to tell you that there will be no change to the weapons policy.  Do you understand?"

I said:  "No, I do not understand.  Which policy is unchanged?  The policy we have followed for several years, or the policy he announced Wednesday?"

The aide looked upset, then said, "The General said you might ask that, and I am authorized to tell you only that the policy is not changed."

In other words, use your own judgement but if you screw up, or if you lose weapons to a robbery, you're on your own.  Everything goes well, then nothing happens.  Anything bad that happens is your fault.

Welcome to the world of being an officer.  Y'all ain't just "Senior Members" anymore!

Of course there's no right answer, that's where being btwn a rock & a hard place comes from. You make the best decision you can based on the info you have & say a little prayer when you're hanging it out over the line. Crap does happen & people do die, and to the best of your ability you try to keep that from being on your watch (and don't screw the next guy either). Clearly that doesn't mean you blow the bugle & charge even though it might break you & your family financially. There's a risk in both directions that you're assuming personally no matter what you do, you have to look at the big picutre & make a personal judgement about how much you're willing to risk & if the situation on the ground is worth it. You have cover of law if you choose not to fly, but what if that kid freezes to death overnight cause we lost the light when we couldn't put a plane up? You made that call & that kid died cause you wanted to CYA. Sure it goes the other way too & people do crazy stuff when the fangs are hanging out & the eyes are lasered in. You just have to do the best you can & try to stick to the book as best you can.

I said this I think in another thread... if an IC orders you to do something, & you refuse for whatever reason (including things like training & experience), and someone ends up hurt or dead cause you didn't follow orders, you will be personally liable above & beyond CAP's insurance. You may also be criminally liable; just like the CAP doctor who follows CAP regs & watches someone die despite the state requiring him to stop & render all aid he's capable of.

Now, to blow this example out of the water right quick... why doesn't the qual'd crew back at base RENT a plane & fly over the the CAP plane, then on to the search area? Even if that ends up not being reimbursed it's preferable to a non-current pilot being cleared (wouldn't want to be that FRO).

John, that's classic military CYA right there. Get caught carrying weps & the order was not to do so, get hit in transit & the order was to carry. That's politician slick right there. Long as the aide winked appropriately to let you know that was the deal, then I guess that's par for the course.

Quotesomeone ends up hurt or dead cause you didn't follow orders, you will be personally liable above & beyond CAP's insurance.

I think you're forgetting that the Good Sam law protects you if you decide to do nothing.  Doctors and others are often not covered by that law however. 

OH NO, the good samaritan law, which is dif from state to state, protects you if you DO decide to help within the range of your ability & it goes bad. If you do nothing & life, injury, property, or loss occurs because you chose to do nothing despite your training, you WILL go to jail. If a nurse drives past a car accident w/o stopping where there are people visably injured & no ambulance yet on the scene, he/she would lose their license, be open to a fat lawsuit, and would be prosecuted. It has & does happen. It would be the same thing if an ER doctor refused to treat you cause they didn't like the way you looked - that's against the law. You can debate to what extent the insurance would or would not cover you, and in that fight you should listen to Eclipse tell you to go by the book. CAP may still pay out the whazzoo, but it shouldn't come out of your pocket. If you refuse an IC order cause you disagree with the search plan & just feel like being a jackass, and if that action can later be connected to harming someone or something, then you're on the hook for that one. CAP & govt lawyers will protect their client, which ain't you, and they can VERY easily argue you out from under their coverage & come with a hammer after that to make sure their client doesn't pay a dime - that's what they get paid for.

You keep bringing up examples of professionals who are duty bound to act by state law.  A regular John Doe CAP member is a whole nother story. 

That being said, anyone can sue anyone over anything. 

Hello All,

I'm new to the board but have read many of the posts and feel as if I know many of you already.  Greetings from the Gulf South.  One of the provisions of CAPR60-1 is that a CAPF5 ride can be performed prior to the expiration date.  Since we don't know when these missions are coming up and if you are getting close, get out there and schedule a ride.  We all know about weather, equipment failure, scheduling issues.....

Semper vi....ya'll

Stephen
Foley, Alabama

Quote from: RiverAux on November 28, 2006, 03:17:08 AM

Quotesomeone ends up hurt or dead cause you didn't follow orders, you will be personally liable above & beyond CAP's insurance.

I think you're forgetting that the Good Sam law protects you if you decide to do nothing.  Doctors and others are often not covered by that law however. 

Also, in the case cited, this would be an "unlawful order", so the member would be duty-bound to disobey.

In a coffee-house setting, I would be willing to at least entertain the idea that a Wing or Regional CC, as well as Nat CC could issue a directive counter-manding regulations on an emergency basis, only in as much as they are board members and therfore officers of the corporation.

You better believe I would want it in writing with a wet signature.

An IC, however, has no such standing whatsoever.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 04:58:19 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on November 28, 2006, 03:17:08 AM

Quotesomeone ends up hurt or dead cause you didn't follow orders, you will be personally liable above & beyond CAP's insurance.

I think you're forgetting that the Good Sam law protects you if you decide to do nothing.  Doctors and others are often not covered by that law however. 

Also, in the case cited, this would be an "unlawful order", so the member would be duty-bound to disobey.

In a coffee-house setting, I would be willing to at least entertain the idea that a Wing or Regional CC, as well as Nat CC could issue a directive counter-manding regulations on an emergency basis, only in as much as they are board members and therfore officers of the corporation.

You better believe I would want it in writing with a wet signature.

An IC, however, has no such standing whatsoever.

I'm not so sure such is the case, Eclipse.  The IC is appointed by the Wing King.  As such, I believe he would have the authority of the Wing King with respect to that mision.

And in the hypothetical situation, a wet signature isn't going to happen, given the realities of time and space.  That's why I had the order, and the current flight status, acknowledged in the presence of witnesses.

I'm not a lawyer (But I play one on TV).  I think I could make a good case in defense of the IC and the GT Leader/Pilot before the MARB in authorizing a short ferry flight by a pilot less than 90 days out of Form 5 currency, given the exigencies of the mission.

DNall:

Actually, the aide didn't wink.  He was VERY uncomfortable caught in the middle like that.  But that's why the CG sent the aide to wash his socks.  I would have pressed the CG for either a clear order.  I coudn't press the aide to give me something that he himself did not have.

A little perverse justice came out of it.  We left Ft. Sheridan (North of Chicago) on time.  The unit that the colonel who started the dust-up commanded did NOT leave until 4 hours after its scheduled departure time.  It seems that he authorized armed security on his weapons, but didn't screen his people too good.  One of the guards was playing with his weapon, had the fire selector on "Rock and roll," and busted off 5 or 6 rounds accidentally. 

When the MP's at Sheridan took the report they discovered that the guy who fired the M-16A1 had two felony warrants in Detroit for robbery.

I saw the 1st Lt who was commanding his convoy at the MP station before I left, since 2 of my troopers were witnesses, and had to give statements.  He didn't look too good, and was waiting to see the post commander.  I was glad I wasn't him.

No doubt. And inexperienced officer there with the aide. To be sure in that situation you don't want to clarify an order the CG didn't give yo to pass on, and any good Company commander would try to trap the kid to have an extra fall back if it came to it, but he should have known what was going on & played straight. You're still just as trapped, but at least you can respect the kid & have no doubt what you're getting into.

Eclipse is right here on not taking that order from the IC alone. Again, you get those fangs hanging out & ICs, just like PICs & GTLs, will go charging over the hill w/o thinking at all. I think you do for sure have to get a written sign off by someone in a position to do so. Wg CC is logical, maybe even a chief check pilot type, pref both (cause that covers both your bases), NOC would be even better but they get the fangs hangin out too on big missions & go flat stupid. In the end, of course protect yourself & your people, but there may be a situation in the big picture (life vs. ELT) where you personally are willing to take the risk. Just so you've thought it all the way thru (use your ORM there), and have some back up on side-stepping the reg. It's a tough call.

And by the way, not remotely worth any kind of commendation. More like show up at base & get a handshake & "thanks buddy, we really appreciate it, phone's over there if you need to call a ride, or you can hang out in the other room if you want, just stay out of the way." My ass you're getting a commendation, you find the governor, six nuns, and a girl scout troop, then fight off the bear about to have them for lunch & you might get a pat on the back & a lifesaving medal, maybe. I've done some pretty crazy stuff that didn't rate one. On the other hand, I got a comcom for making coffee & driving people to lunch at an SMC course - just refuse to wear it is all.

Oh and River... "Mr CAP officer, can you describe for the court your training, background, & experience in SaR please? I have an SQTR here for GTM, can you explain this to me? And you've held that rating for how many years? Would you describe yourself as a SaR expert? How about experienced operator, would that make you feel more comfortable? Fine. So you were asked to search this area, but refused to do so cause the IC was mean to you, the coffee & donuts weren't the right brand, and you didn't feel like walking around the mountains all day when you could be driving around in the AC instead. Yet this little girl's body was found right where you were told to go & the ME says she was irrefutably alive when you were told to go there. Hmm, if we walk outside this courthouse & someone gets hit by a car, will you use your first aid skills on them, or will you refuse to stop & render aid in the area & to the extent of your expertise again?   You honor, because this guy is going to prison for 5-10, we'd request summary judgment so his holdings may be liquidated & wages garnished to pay 10mil to this poor family victimized by this selfish malfeasant monster."

It has been my experience that if one is "in the right," has faith in their training and confidence (because of the prior) that one tends to fair well in these sorts of situation.

Now...one must ask on one's self...

1) Do we have the training?

2) Are we are part of offering said training to others?

3) Do we know it to the level of unblinking confidence?

4) are we actually "in the right?"

Failure on these questions is a formula for a meshegas!!!

I'm surprised that someone hasn't brought up the topic of scene safety yet. One of the first things that any first responder, RN, MD, person with an ice pack and a piece of gauze in their glovebox should be assessing before they go running in anywhere is scene safety. Regardless of whether or not the person is FAA current, they're not CAP current, which is yourself making the scene unsafe.

Don't forget, not all RN's and doctors know everything about everything in saving lives from a roadside car accident. Most people don't carry a first in bag in their car or anything like that, plus there's so many different types of RN's and docs out there, it doesn't always make a difference. Nursing home RN's are usually BLS trained only, and know how to dispense pills, take care of the patients, and that's about it. Same with an urology doctor. Unless you've got kidney stones in that car accident, there's not a lot he can do, because he doesn't have the specialized training. ACLS, BTLS, PALS, all those fun certs, not all of the docs or RN's have. And they usually NEVER have the required equipment with them to accomplish any of it.

I work in a teaching hospital/level 1 trauma center in Nashville in the main ED, and we have nurses down there who know more then a lot of our residents, just in training and lifesaving measures. Then, somewhere else in the hospital,we have nurses that, when someone codes, you're lucky if they manage to call the operator to have it called out, have the crash cart in or near the room, and someone maybe has begun compressions on the patient before the code team arrives. This is usually with most of the RN's, PCT's, MR's, and housekeeping from that and adjoining floors all piled in the room to see what's going on.

Just remember, letters at the end of the name don't always mean competence in all situations.  Should a nursing home RN stop at the scene of an accident when there's no medical professionals on scene? Yes, probably. Is she going to be able to do much other then call 911, and maybe do CPR if someone is unresponsive and pulseless? Not really.

People die. It sucks. Whether it's because of slow reaction times, equipment failures, weather, or just that it was beyond our control, it's going to happen. We try our best, but we do so with the spirit of safety in mind, so that we don't add more casualties to an already crappy situation. Sometimes we make the save, sometimes we don't.

[ /rant ]

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 28, 2006, 07:18:20 AM
It has been my experience that if one is "in the right," has faith in their training and confidence (because of the prior) that one tends to fair well in these sorts of situation.

I think I'd have to add one more to that...faith in their leadership to stand behind them, even if things do go South. 


SJFedor,

I've encountered that situation as well.  I was a volunteer firefighter who rolled up on a vehicle accident with injuries.  My Captain was an EMT (at the time, under law EMT's in a volunteer department are like they are in CAP, no more than First Responders).  We were performing an assessment of a vicitim and a gentleman runs up and tells us he's a Doctor.  I made a move to step back, willing to yeild to someone with more experience/expertice, when my Captain grabs my arm and turns to look at the Doctor and says, "What kind of Doctor?"  The gentleman replies, "I'm a Podiatrist."  The Captain smirked and said, "Her feet are fine Doc, please step back."