Instead of pensions......perhaps some more money needs to start being set aside each year by NHQ for those members who give their life while performing CAP duties.  I would rather see the family get hundreds of thousands of dollars upfront than see anyone ever get a pension.  Like Police and Fire associations that raise money for fallen firefighters and paramedics and police officers, we need a similar organization.  Raise money for our fallen heroes.  I would even include Cadets!!!  Shame on the USAF and the Federal Government for not including Cadets under 18 for dieing while performing an AF assigned mission.  (Because of that they need to stop counting all Cadets under the age of 18 as mission assets for AFAM's at CAP-USAF each year.  I could not with ethically send an under 18 Cadet on an AFAM knowing if he got hurt or worse, got killed he or his family would get no Federal Compensation)

QuoteI just want to see the already scarce DOD/DHS money for such things go to the right places.

I also suggested that it wouldn't be bad for participating members to provide some of the funding themselves as is common in many pension systems today. 

Timbo -- you might want to read 900-5.  Cadets under 18 aren't eligible for federal workmen's comp, but they are eligible for benefits under CAP's insurance program.  $10K for accidental death, $8000 for medical.  This is for costs in excess of what their other insurance pays.  Its not great, but they do get some coverage. 

Quote from: RiverAux on December 18, 2008, 02:32:53 AM

QuoteI just want to see the already scarce DOD/DHS money for such things go to the right places.

I also suggested that it wouldn't be bad for participating members to provide some of the funding themselves as is common in many pension systems today. 

Timbo -- you might want to read 900-5.  Cadets under 18 aren't eligible for federal workmen's comp, but they are eligible for benefits under CAP's insurance program.  $10K for accidental death, $8000 for medical.  This is for costs in excess of what their other insurance pays.  Its not great, but they do get some coverage. 

Thanks River......that issue was not making sense to me, now it does.  They still get no federal benefit though, right?  Only Corporate payout??

Yep, no federal.  Personally, I think they should ask for the federal law to be changed to allow cadet coverage, but on AFAMs we're not really asking them to do anything that is any more dangerous than they would do in any other youth organization that probably has no medical benefits at all for its members. 

River you are absolutely right, it doesn't matter whether cadets are supposed to safe or not, if the situation arises that a cadet is put in danger or dies. The family should be able to buy into a better death benefit or injury benefit for their cadets.

Quote from: Timbo on December 18, 2008, 01:09:24 AM
Instead of pensions......perhaps some more money needs to start being set aside each year by NHQ for those members who give their life while performing CAP duties.  I would rather see the family get hundreds of thousands of dollars upfront than see anyone ever get a pension.  Like Police and Fire associations that raise money for fallen firefighters and paramedics and police officers, we need a similar organization.  Raise money for our fallen heroes.  I would even include Cadets!!!  Shame on the USAF and the Federal Government for not including Cadets under 18 for dieing while performing an AF assigned mission.  (Because of that they need to stop counting all Cadets under the age of 18 as mission assets for AFAM's at CAP-USAF each year.  I could not with ethically send an under 18 Cadet on an AFAM knowing if he got hurt or worse, got killed he or his family would get no Federal Compensation)

Now this I agree with 100%!  I would support this idea in a heartbeat!

Quote from: PaulR on December 18, 2008, 05:18:46 PM

Quote from: Timbo on December 18, 2008, 01:09:24 AM
Instead of pensions......perhaps some more money needs to start being set aside each year by NHQ for those members who give their life while performing CAP duties.  I would rather see the family get hundreds of thousands of dollars upfront than see anyone ever get a pension.  Like Police and Fire associations that raise money for fallen firefighters and paramedics and police officers, we need a similar organization.  Raise money for our fallen heroes.  I would even include Cadets!!!  Shame on the USAF and the Federal Government for not including Cadets under 18 for dieing while performing an AF assigned mission.  (Because of that they need to stop counting all Cadets under the age of 18 as mission assets for AFAM's at CAP-USAF each year.  I could not with ethically send an under 18 Cadet on an AFAM knowing if he got hurt or worse, got killed he or his family would get no Federal Compensation)

Now this I agree with 100%!  I would support this idea in a heartbeat!

That's a winning idea.  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Quote from: Gunner C on December 19, 2008, 07:04:32 AM

Quote

Now this I agree with 100%!  I would support this idea in a heartbeat!

That's a winning idea.  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

That's odd.

Are you guys saying that you would make decisions that could possibly affect the lives of innocent victims (availability of cadet "manpower" on AFAM) based on whether or not you think the cadet's family should be entitled to money from the Federal Government?

I would have thought your role was to explain the situation to the cadet and her/his parents and let them decide what is best for them.

But that's just me.

I would hope compensation or no compensation would affect any decisions. 

Quote from: Ned on December 19, 2008, 06:39:48 PM

Are you guys saying that you would make decisions that could possibly affect the lives of innocent victims (availability of cadet "manpower" on AFAM) based on whether or not you think the cadet's family should be entitled to money from the Federal Government?

I would have thought your role was to explain the situation to the cadet and her/his parents and let them decide what is best for them.

But that's just me.

Ya......I hope you never have to tell a parent "little Suzie died while searching for a missing hiker who was really just extending his vacation in the woods without telling his relatives, oh and by the way, here is just enough money from CAP to bury your daughter, and don't ever think about getting any Cash from the US Government, even though she was 1 day away from her 18th birthday, and could have got more if she were in fact 18". 

Not to exclude Cadets under 18 is sinful, and I hope you would follow suit, to in fact exclude them, even though it may mean instead of 30 people searching for a missing -whatever-, now there are only 27. 

Make sure the cadets and their parents know the rules, categories of compensation, and then let them make an informed decision.   

If you are denying them the opportunity to participate in CAP activities based on them not getting FECA benefits, you might need to expand your denial to all CAP activities.   This would also apply to senior members participating in a C mission.

Quote from: Timbo on December 19, 2008, 07:53:06 PMNot to exclude Cadets under 18 is sinful, and I hope you would follow suit, to in fact exclude them, even though it may mean instead of 30 people searching for a missing -whatever-, now there are only 27.

First, it would not be only 27 instead of 30. It would probably be more like 15. And of those; 6 would likely be aircrew and 5 in mission base staff/IC. Which might leave just enough qualified seniors for a single ground team.

Sorry, but we couldn't run a lot of our missions without cadets. And while I agree that they should be treated better than they are, I don't like the idea of us jeopardizing our missions to make that point. I think we're a lot more professional than that. At least, we should be.

Also, are you basing this on real data? How many cadets have been killed on ES missions? Any? I have a feeling the number is pretty insignificant to justify what you're proposing. But I could be wrong.

Quote from: Timbo on December 19, 2008, 07:53:06 PM
Not to exclude Cadets under 18 is sinful,

You're kidding right?

The ability for cadets to function in a meaningful role in ES is a tenant of the entire program and a key differentiation of
us versus similar programs.

Pensions for CAP members? I would say no. CAP is not a career, and shouldn't try to include the trappings of one.

I seriously doubt that a pension would be anywhere near as beneficial as anyone might think, or solve any problems at all. Compensation for injuries sustained on legitimate missions I agree with and would whole heartedly support. But not for a program where people don't show up regularly, or have the option of saying "Forget this, I quit."

A lot would have to change before I would even consider a pension system as anywhere near appropriate. No, solve some of our issues first, before trying to make CAP a part of a retirement plan.

My two cents:

I was a certified GTM for several years.
I remain a UDF and FLM member and UDF instructor.

Problem is: I've been in CAP a decade and havent had a single mission in my AO in the entire decade.

On the other hand, I'm a Squadron Commander and in the decade I've been in CAP have been absent at less then a dozen meetings.

So saying that a pension program is limited to active ES people is wrong.
There just isnt a call for it here, but I do work with cadets and AE.

YMMV

Just another thought on this --- CAP-RAP personnel volunteer their time (most of the time) to oversee CAP activities and in return get retirement points.  In effect the volunteer program that they participate in allows them to retire earlier than they would otherwise be able to.  One CAP-RAP that I know will get to retire with full benefits about 8 years earlier than they would have if they weren't doing CAP-RAP. 

So, in effect the feds already are spending money on volunteers working with CAP -- they just aren't CAP members. 

Okay...but the feds were going to pay those retirement costs anyway.....You still have not come up with a good way to pay for this retirement system.

Actually they're losing the use of people who otherwise would still be contributing full Reserve service a lot earlier than they would have otherwise.  In the example I provided, they will provide full retirement for somebody 8 years early -- thats not insignificant.  And remember, there is no guarantee that anybody is going to serve long enough to get full-retirement.  So, this is not a free program by any stretch. 

Several different options have been presented on how it could be done, but it just isn't going to be possible to give anything specific here. 

I use to be critical of some of my mis-perceived ideas about CAPs lack of coverage (insurance Etc). However, as I began to do research I realized that many volunteer fireman around the country get ZIP, they do not have liability insurance driving to a fire. Some states do have a minimal pension but it is really complicated. I believe that we do provide a huge service to our country I do not think we need the pain of a pension plan mathematical equation.

I do believe we need more transparency in death benefits, a corporate $10,000 policy is so pitiful, I am ashamed of NHQ for not at least making it $50,000. I also think the Wings have been doing a crappy job investigating the benefits allowed under State Laws for emergency workers. We are almost always left out in the Cold.

I hate to say this but I honestly believe that there is very little real concern for the guys in the trenches, after all NHQ pays little attention to us unless we screw up, and because they are acting like a corporation maybe we need a CAP Union

            :clap: 

Um.... saying NHQ doesn't pay attention to "us" unless we screw up is a bit extreme.  NHQ pays attention to the NB and NEC and the BOG.  It is the job of these bodies to pay attention to the membership.  However, that's my opinion; YMMV.

Now, as to CAP-RAP and points.  Yes however, the CAP-RAP members work for the USAF; not CAP.  Their job is to provide CAP-USAF support (I know this is a technicality but, it's true).

As for CAP death/disability benefits,  the money comes from our membership dues.  We can increase the maximum payment.  Let's see; another $100k per year (an average of 2 maximum member payouts/year) would mean about a $2 annual increase in member dues.  If that's ok with the members, it would be ok with the NB and, it can be done.  

"Membership has its rewards".  We try to make the experience more rewarding as time goes by and, as we get more money to spend.  Even in these trying times we haven't had to worry (too much) about cutting back.  If there is ever a day I need to "retire" from CAP, my "pension" will be a lifetime of great memories, friends and experiences.