Encampment Equivalent

[AngelWings]

(sorry if this is in the wrong place, I'm not sure where it'd fit at the moment.)

I was wondering if an Army JCLC (JROTC Cadet Leadership Challenge) would count as an ecampment equivalent. My family is tight on money, so I prefer not having to head back to back encampment/JCLC for the same experience and with so much money being spent that either I do not attend encampment or I put my family into debt.

[Eclipse]

See CAPR 52-16, Page 40:

b. Encampment Credit.  Cadets who complete an AFJROTC summer leadership school will
receive credit for completing a CAP encampment after submitting their graduation certificate to
National Headquarters. See capmembers.com/encampment for more information.

To my knowledge AFJROTC is the only organization that can grant this waiver, however it doesn't hurt to ask.
Have your unit CC consult with the Wing DCP and State Director.

For the record they are not likely to be the same experience.

[SARDOC]

I recently checked on an NJROTC equivalency for one of my cadets in a similar scenario but he had actually attended an advanced leadership school as well and was still told that it was not valid for equivalency.

[Slim]

Unfortunately, the regulation (CAPR 52-16, Para 10-1, section b) specifies only that an AFJROTC summer leadership school is eligible for encampment equivalency; none of the other JROTC programs are mentioned.  I'm guessing that this is due to the similarity between CAP encampment curriculum and AFJROTC SLS curriculum. 

Having said that, I would never tell anyone that it isn't in their best interest to attend a CAP encampment.  If finances are an issue, there are ways around that.  First and foremost, work with your unit to see if they can help you.  Also, while I don't want to speak for all encampments out there, but a majority of them do offer financial aid/scholarships based on need.  If we knew where you are, we could better answer that question. 

Another largely untapped financial resource is service organizations like the VFW, DAV, AmVets, Marine Corps League, etc.  Most of these organizations have separate funding accounts set aside for things like this, some of them are required to under their organizational charter.  If you contacted any one of these organizations, made an appointment to come in during a general membership meeting and give a presentation on CAP and encampment, why it's important to you to attend, and how much assistance you need, I'm sure one of them would be more than willing to help you out.  Make sure that you send a thank you note after you get back, and maybe include a picture of you and your flight during the week, they would appreciate it, and be more willing to help the next cadet who comes along.

[ol'fido]

+1 on the American Legion, VFW, Marine Corps League, etc. These guys may agree to sponsor 1, 2, or more cadets each. Have your squadron commander check with them.

[AngelWings]

The one thing I don't think a lot of people look at is the sheer costs of all of the needed gear to attend. The $180 in my wing isn't too much compared to the up to $500 of gear, and the fuel to get it. I'll ask, if they don't, I guess I am stuck in a no win situation.

[Eclipse]

$500 in gear for a CAP encampment?

That's ridiculous.  All you're supposed to need are a couple uniforms, some PT gear, and some personal items.

What's on that list?

[AngelWings]

$500 in gear for a CAP encampment?

That's ridiculous.  All you're supposed to need are a couple uniforms, some PT gear, and some personal items.

What's on that list?

For the things I don't have, I need:
8 brown t-shirts (which range at $6 a piece, which'd be around $48)
8 pairs of boot socks (which range at $4-10 depending on the pairds I get, so $32 at minimum)
A solid color blanket (which are around $30 if I buy a cheap one)
Possibly a new pair of boots...

You know what, you're right. This was my evaluation from last year when I had nothing on the lists, including extra uniforms. Money still is tight, though, and they saved money is nice.

[Eclipse]

That sounds more reasonable.

Granted none of this stuff is free, but I would think you could scrounge that list from home if you had to, and then there's always the laundry.

This shouldn't be a "no-win" - it might be difficult, or your progression might be delayed, but there's no specific requirement to attend an encampment
every year.  If you can' get there this year, you just can't.

As suggested, make it known you're struggling and ask for help.  Most encampments and wings have programs for scholarships or subsidies.

[AngelWings]

That sounds more reasonable.

Granted none of this stuff is free, but I would think you could scrounge that list from home if you had to, and then there's always the laundry.

This shouldn't be a "no-win" - it might be difficult, or your progression might be delayed, but there's no specific requirement to attend an encampment
every year.  If you can' get there this year, you just can't.

As suggested, make it known you're struggling and ask for help.  Most encampments and wings have programs for scholarships or subsidies.

My pride would be a little hurt, but I may end up doing that.

[ol'fido]

$500 in gear for a CAP encampment?

That's ridiculous.  All you're supposed to need are a couple uniforms, some PT gear, and some personal items.

What's on that list?

For the things I don't have, I need:
8 brown t-shirts (which range at $6 a piece, which'd be around $48)
8 pairs of boot socks (which range at $4-10 depending on the pairds I get, so $32 at minimum)
A solid color blanket (which are around $30 if I buy a cheap one)
Possibly a new pair of boots...

You know what, you're right. This was my evaluation from last year when I had nothing on the lists, including extra uniforms. Money still is tight, though, and they saved money is nice.

They don't allow black t-shirts which can be bought at Walmart for $3-4 each. Or Black work socks, 6 prs to a package for about $8-10? For blankets, check the Goodwill or Surplus stores. You should be able to find an old GI blanket at either one if you you look around.

[AngelWings]

$500 in gear for a CAP encampment?

That's ridiculous.  All you're supposed to need are a couple uniforms, some PT gear, and some personal items.

What's on that list?

For the things I don't have, I need:
8 brown t-shirts (which range at $6 a piece, which'd be around $48)
8 pairs of boot socks (which range at $4-10 depending on the pairds I get, so $32 at minimum)
A solid color blanket (which are around $30 if I buy a cheap one)
Possibly a new pair of boots...

You know what, you're right. This was my evaluation from last year when I had nothing on the lists, including extra uniforms. Money still is tight, though, and they saved money is nice.

They don't allow black t-shirts which can be bought at Walmart for $3-4 each. Or Black work socks, 6 prs to a package for about $8-10? For blankets, check the Goodwill or Surplus stores. You should be able to find an old GI blanket at either one if you you look around.

Mass Wing has the conecption that making corps wear brown shirts and staff wear black shirts mskes it easier to identify the two. As for black wool socks, my feet have a huge aversin to wool (last time I had wool socks on my feet broke out and were so itchy I could barely stand up). The GI blankets should be easy to find in my area, with a few surplus stores carrying them.

[ol'fido]

The packets of black socks at Wal-Mart are cotton.

[titanII]

Mass Wing has the conecption that making corps wear brown shirts and staff wear black shirts mskes it easier to identify the two.

If/When it gets hot enough to take off the BDU blouse, and if you're inside, then the only identifier between the two would be the color of the t-shirt.

[Al Sayre]

$500 in gear for a CAP encampment?

That's ridiculous.  All you're supposed to need are a couple uniforms, some PT gear, and some personal items.

What's on that list?

For the things I don't have, I need:
8 brown t-shirts (which range at $6 a piece, which'd be around $48)
8 pairs of boot socks (which range at $4-10 depending on the pairds I get, so $32 at minimum)
A solid color blanket (which are around $30 if I buy a cheap one)
Possibly a new pair of boots...

You know what, you're right. This was my evaluation from last year when I had nothing on the lists, including extra uniforms. Money still is tight, though, and they saved money is nice.

They don't allow black t-shirts which can be bought at Walmart for $3-4 each. Or Black work socks, 6 prs to a package for about $8-10? For blankets, check the Goodwill or Surplus stores. You should be able to find an old GI blanket at either one if you you look around.

Mass Wing has the conecption that making corps wear brown shirts and staff wear black shirts mskes it easier to identify the two. As for black wool socks, my feet have a huge aversin to wool (last time I had wool socks on my feet broke out and were so itchy I could barely stand up). The GI blankets should be easy to find in my area, with a few surplus stores carrying them.

If wool socks made your feet break out, DO NOT buy a GI Blanket, as they are also made of wool and would likely make your entire body break out.  Some people have wool allergies, some more severe than others.  (I don't break out, but the wool blankets definitely made boot camp and ship board life a misery for me....)

[ol'fido]

I would go with Polar Fleece if wool was a problem.

[Eclipse]

Mass Wing has the conecption that making corps wear brown shirts and staff wear black shirts mskes it easier to identify the two.

If/When it gets hot enough to take off the BDU blouse, and if you're inside, then the only identifier between the two would be the color of the t-shirt.

If the only way to tell staff from basics is t-shirt color, you're cooked no matter what you're wearing.

[titanII]

If the only way to tell staff from basics is t-shirt color, you're cooked no matter what you're wearing.

It's not the only way all the time: The black t-shirts staff wears has a CAP logo on the front, and say "STAFF" on the back. When wearing the BDU blouse (most if not all of the time), staff are wearing grade insignia and basics are not*. When outside , staff will be wearing their distinctive ball caps while corps wears patrol caps. And of course staff will know who's on staff, and the cadre will eventually come to recognize this as well.

*Many will not like this. I will neither support nor argue against this, it was not my decision.

[Eclipse]

If the only way to tell staff from basics is t-shirt color, you're cooked no matter what you're wearing.

It's not the only way all the time: The black t-shirts staff wears has a CAP logo on the front, and say "STAFF" on the back. When wearing the BDU blouse (most if not all of the time), staff are wearing grade insignia and basics are not*. When outside , staff will be wearing their distinctive ball caps while corps wears patrol caps. And of course staff will know who's on staff, and the cadre will eventually come to recognize this as well.

My point is that an encampment (or any similar situation) should not be such a random disorganized mess that the only way you can tell staff from
basics is some component of their uniform. The ball caps are bad enough, but certainly enough of a delimiter that t-shirts aren't also necessary.
Some encampments look like a Star Trek convention, with different colors for sections, staff, etc., as if "people will die" and "buildings will burn" if someone accidently reports to the wrong person.

It's one thing if the encampment chooses to provide the "badges of office", but quite another when that "badge" incurs a financial burden
upon a member, especially a cadet.  In fact >that's< against regulations, too, since we can't compel a cadet to wear anything other then the MBU
unless it is provided to them.

*Many will not like this. I will neither support nor argue against this, it was not my decision.

It's not a matter of "dislike" - it violates at least two different regulations, not to mention makes >zero< sense.

[titanII]

It's one thing if the encampment chooses to provide the "badges of office", but quite another when that "badge" incurs a financial burden
upon a member, especially a cadet.  In fact >that's< against regulations, too, since we can't compel a cadet to wear anything other then the MBU
unless it is provided to them.

So an Encampment can't require the cadets to buy 8 brown t-shirts, but can they add an extra $50 (or however much to pay for 8 brown t-shirts) to the activity fee and then give the cadets the shirts?
(That was an honest question, not rhetorical)

[Eclipse]

It's one thing if the encampment chooses to provide the "badges of office", but quite another when that "badge" incurs a financial burden
upon a member, especially a cadet.  In fact >that's< against regulations, too, since we can't compel a cadet to wear anything other then the MBU
unless it is provided to them.

So an Encampment can't require the cadets to buy 8 brown t-shirts, but can they add an extra $50 (or however much to pay for 8 brown t-shirts) to the activity fee and then give the cadets the shirts?
(That was an honest question, not rhetorical)

Sadly, yes, though that misses the point, and should be something considered by the Wing CC, DCP, and others involved when the finances are approved.

The spirit of the reg is to not incur additional costs to the cadets, period, by mandating specific uniforms.  However as we all know the BDU
is essentially required for just about everything, despite the fact that they are not provided by the program.

So it's bad enough that we are already mandating a uniform outside the regs, but the activity should not be making it worse by forcing other
items a cadet might not have.

In this case the t-shirts.  If, for some bizarre reason, the wing decided to mandate that all cadets wear brown in stead of black, well then they'd already have them, but the vast majority of cadets (and seniors) these days wear black t-shirts under uniforms, so mandating brown is almost
assured to incur costs.

[AngelWings]

The biggest problem I have with brown is that it is not very easy to find and not easy to keep uniformed with other cadets whereas black is black.

Its not just the brown tshirts though, it is the cost of some of the needed gear. I simply don't have some of the items on the lists and they are not all that cheap.

[Private Investigator]

My family is tight on money,

My youngest daughter has a choice; Encampment, Soccer Camp, Softball Camp or Surf Camp. She can not do all. Next year, well that is a maybe ...

[PHall]

Not to hijack this thread, but, which two regs were violated Eclipse?

[Eclipse]

Not to hijack this thread, but, which two regs were violated Eclipse?

52-16 - 5-2. Cadet Promotions.
g. Temporary & Discretionary Grades. There are no temporary promotions or demotions, including temporary or "field" promotions or demotions at encampments and other activities. There are no discretionary grades. Cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity. The only grades authorized are those shown in CAPVA 52-100

39-1 in regards to proper wear of the CAP uniform, which includes grade.  Not wearing your grade would be an improper configuration, especially for a cadet.

[Ned]

Not to hijack this thread, but, which two regs were violated Eclipse?

52-16 - 5-2. Cadet Promotions.
g. Temporary & Discretionary Grades. There are no temporary promotions or demotions, including temporary or "field" promotions or demotions at encampments and other activities. There are no discretionary grades. Cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity. The only grades authorized are those shown in CAPVA 52-100

39-1 in regards to proper wear of the CAP uniform, which includes grade.  Not wearing your grade would be an improper configuration, especially for a cadet.

Seriously, what regulations get violated when we tell cadets to wear a color of t-shirt authorized by the 39-1?

[Eclipse]

Seriously, what regulations get violated when we tell cadets to wear a color of t-shirt authorized by the 39-1?

I never said the t-shirts violated anything but common sense, though unless they are issued, requiring them of cadets violates 39-1.

The two specific violations I mentioned were in regards to prohibiting basics from wearing their grade.

[PHall]

Seriously, what regulations get violated when we tell cadets to wear a color of t-shirt authorized by the 39-1?

I never said the t-shirts violated anything but common sense, though unless they are issued, requiring them of cadets violates 39-1.
The two specific violations I mentioned were in regards to prohibiting basics from wearing their grade.

I refer you to CAPM 39-1, 23 MARCH 2005, Table 1-1, Note 1. It's authorized.

[Eclipse]

Seriously, what regulations get violated when we tell cadets to wear a color of t-shirt authorized by the 39-1?

I never said the t-shirts violated anything but common sense, though unless they are issued, requiring them of cadets violates 39-1.
The two specific violations I mentioned were in regards to prohibiting basics from wearing their grade.

I refer you to CAPM 39-1, 23 MARCH 2005, Table 1-1, Note 1. It's authorized.

Nope.  That note only applies to seniors, as they do not have the below waiver of requirement.

1-5. Uniform Combinations.  Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication.  Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below.  Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis.  Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit.  However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed.  It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform. 
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms.  Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other  optional uniform items only if the  purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

I'll grant you that the actual practice is in direct conflict with this, from BDU's through t-shirts and hats, but
that doesn't change what is actually written.

Every year someone asks "What if cadet so-and-so can't afford BDU's?", and the answer is that we could not
bar his participation as long as he wore his blues to everything.