Is it the CAP or just CAP?

[AngelWings]

Hello. I've seen numerous people say something like "in the CAP", and numerous others just say "in CAP". Is there a correct way of saying it, or are both interchangable?

[Eclipse]

See A Pea.

[Thrashed]

If anyone really cares, "the" is more proper grammar.

[Major Lord]

The correct way to refer to CAP is as "CAP" not as "The CAP".

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

If anyone really cares, "the" is more proper grammar.

That's where the confusion comes in, "the" sounds better, but isn't correct. The same thing happens when people refer to
a ship.

It's "Enterprise" not "The Enterprise".

[Major Lord]

I can't recall exactly which manual or pamphlet mentions this, but it was covered in my Level 1. (Maybe one of you people who have memorized all the forms and pamphlets can help out here) You will notice in all of our regulations, that "CAP" is always used without the definite article when referring to the organization. Its proper to say "The CAP Commander" because the subject of the sentence is different. As to whether "CAP" is pronounced as a word (like the hat) or spelled out,  it depends on whether it is an acronym or an initialism. I belong to the second school of thought, that it is an initialism, and should be pronounced in the same way we say "CIA" or "FBI" ( also generally used without the definite article) Unlike an acronym, which we pronounce as a word, like "NATO" , SCUBA, or LASER.

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

Wait, it's not the Ceia and the Febee?

[davidsinn]

I can't recall exactly which manual or pamphlet mentions this, but it was covered in my Level 1. (Maybe one of you people who have memorized all the forms and pamphlets can help out here) You will notice in all of our regulations, that "CAP" is always used without the definite article when referring to the organization. Its proper to say "The CAP Commander" because the subject of the sentence is different. As to whether "CAP" is pronounced as a word (like the hat) or spelled out,  it depends on whether it is an acronym or an initialism. I belong to the second school of thought, that it is an initialism, and should be pronounced in the same way we say "CIA" or "FBI" ( also generally used without the definite article) Unlike an acronym, which we pronounce as a word, like "NATO" , SCUBA, or LASER.

Major Lord

The difference between an intialism and an acronym is that one is pronounceable. CAP is pronounceable while CIA is not.

[wuzafuzz]

When do SMWOG's start wearing collar devices displaying "The C.A.P."?   

In conversation I usually use either "See Ay Pea" or Civil Air Patrol.  I never say the word CAP or use "the" in front of it.  Personal preference, right or wrong.

[Major Lord]

An Initialism or an Acronym may be pronounceable, so the limiting definition above is too subjective. An initialism can become an Acronym after the origin of the word becomes historically vague ( Acronym as in "Anachronism" ) like "RADAR" became Radar, but the capitalization of CAP suggests that the word is intended to be an initialism. I don't accept the idea that the name "Civil Air Patrol" is historically obsolete, so I am in the corner of pronouncing each letter individually, rather than as a piece of headgear, but this is just an opinion. You are free to pronounce the "word" as you please, but in my opinion, it is not intended to be a "word".  One only need look at unintentional acronyms, like the one arising from the phrase "The War Against Terror" to see that an initialism that is pronounceable is not necessarily an acronym.   The issue of the definite article is a matter of official policy, so there is little need for debate.

Major Lord

[paladin82]

If anyone really cares, "the" is more proper grammar.

That's where the confusion comes in, "the" sounds better, but isn't correct. The same thing happens when people refer to
a ship.

It's "Enterprise" not "The Enterprise".

Captain Kirk used to say "THE Enterprise."

[sardak]

It make senses to use "the" before "CAP" when "CAP" is used an adjective, such as "the CAP commander" to distinguish it from "the commander." 

As far as the regs go, here are a few excerpts from AFI 10-2701, Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol.

1.8.1. Secretary of the Air Force. SAF/MR, on behalf of the Secretary of the Air Force, is responsible for strategic guidance, policy direction, and oversight of all matters that pertain to the formulation
and review of Air Force plans, policies, programs, and budgets affecting the CAP.

1.8.5 CAP-USAF personnel will be the primary functional interface between other Federal agencies and the CAP.

1.9.4. Review and coordination on all CAP regulations and instructions to ensure compliance with this Instruction, the CA, the SOW, and the responsibilities of the CAP to the Air Force.

Chapter 2 intro
Missions assigned by the Secretary of the Air Force, or the designee, to the CAP must be identified and referred to as AFAMs in advance of mission execution.

This usage of "the CAP" goes on and on.
****************

I have no problem saying "cap"  or "you saf" or "cap you saf." But I don't think I've ever referred to us when writing or speaking as "the cap."

Mike

[Major Lord]

The AFI is a document with controlling authority over USAF. CAPR's and other CAP publications  are documents with controlling authority over CAP. To suggest that USAF's occasional misuse of "the" is controlling, and over CAP's published regulations and procedures ( And "CAP" is invariably used in CAP publications, as opposed to "the CAP") is just misleading. Captain Kirk is not a controlling authority either, I am afraid.

Major Lord

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Charlie Alpha Papa

[lordmonar]

The AFI is a document with controlling authority over USAF. CAPR's and other CAP publications  are documents with controlling authority over CAP. To suggest that USAF's occasional misuse of "the" is controlling, and over CAP's published regulations and procedures ( And "CAP" is invariably used in CAP publications, as opposed to "the CAP") is just misleading. Captain Kirk is not a controlling authority either, I am afraid.

Major Lord

So there is no "right' answer....because there is NO controlling authority who has offically stated it.

In proper english we should be using "the".   I am a member of theCivil Air Patrol.  Proper use of articles should continue even if you abbreviate the words.  On the other hand.....we drop the "the" all the time in both written and spoken communication.

CAP is going to do this. 
I am going to CAP today.
One of these days CAP is just going make me unhappy!

It's not proper english.....but abbreviations are not really proper to begin with.

On the issue of whether the abbreviation of Civil Air Patrol is an acronym or an initilisation......I guess it is just up to each individual.  I have heard and said it both ways.  And by using our parent organisation as a model......it does not really help.

USAF.......or You Saf?
USAFE.....or You Safe EEE?
AFRC......or Af Rick?
DSCS.....or Discus?

I don't think you will ever find and offical "this is how we say it" AFI or AFPD for any of these things.

So.....call it CAP or See Aye Pee.....and press on.

[AngelWings]

Another dilema: Which is the right spelling out of CAP? See A Pea, See Ay Pea, or See Aye Pea? 

[wuzafuzz]

Another dilema: Which is the right spelling out of CAP? See A Pea, See Ay Pea, or See Aye Pea? 

Some folks might thinks its "See Eh Pea."  Donchaknow, ya.

[SarDragon]

An Initialism or an Acronym may be pronounceable, so the limiting definition above is too subjective. An initialism can become an Acronym after the origin of the word becomes historically vague ( Acronym as in "Anachronism" ) like "RADAR" became Radar, but the capitalization of CAP suggests that the word is intended to be an initialism. I don't accept the idea that the name "Civil Air Patrol" is historically obsolete, so I am in the corner of pronouncing each letter individually, rather than as a piece of headgear, but this is just an opinion. You are free to pronounce the "word" as you please, but in my opinion, it is not intended to be a "word".  One only need look at unintentional acronyms, like the one arising from the phrase "The War Against Terror" to see that an initialism that is pronounceable is not necessarily an acronym.   The issue of the definite article is a matter of official policy, so there is little need for debate.

Major Lord

Nope. No crossover. An initialism is not pronounceable as a word - FBI, GPS, etc. An acronym, by definition, is a pronounceable word - laser, radar, etc. Many acronyms still maintain an all caps format, but some, like radar and laser, have evolved to all lower case.

CAP, as I learned it, is an initialism, and I do share your philosophy in that respect.

The definite article 'the' seems to only be used in front of 'Civil Air Patrol', on a very limited basis.

[SarDragon]

USAF.......or You Saf?

By itself, U-S-A-F. As a part of CAP-USAF, You-Saf.

USAFE.....or You Safe EEE?

You-Safe.

AFRC......or Af Rick?

A-F-R-C

DSCS.....or Discus?

D-S-C-S

I don't think you will ever find and offical "this is how we say it" AFI or AFPD for any of these things.

So.....call it CAP or See Aye Pee.....and press on.

That is based primarily on my experiences over the last 40 or so years, listening to a great variety of folks, many of whom have been members of the various commands.

YMMV.

[titanII]

This reminds me of the R-O-T-C vs "Rot-see" quasi-debate. Discuss! 

[Major Lord]

Any combinations of letters can be pronounced, this is not probative of the words' status as an acronym.  Remember big bird singing the alphabet as a 26 letter word? Especially if you are willing to build hybrid acronyms like ROTC (rot-see) Rhymes with NAZI, also an anachronistic initialism converted to a lower- case word, i.e, "NAZI" became "Nazi". Capitalization makes it clear when a word is intended to be an initialism. Our dear leader, is "POTUS" spoken as a word, and always capitalized, but clearly an initialism. Words like "COMSUBFORATL" clearly are initialisms, but our squidly brothers find ways to pronounce them.

A separate question is whether the use changes when speaking of "The" Civil Air Patrol, versus "the" C.A.P. I know we have a publication that addresses the use of the definite article, but I can't find it. The CAP knowledge base "send inquiry" button was down last night, rats! ( Not to be confused with C-RATS, another disease bearing entity)

Major Lord

[RiverAux]

Words like "COMSUBFORATL" clearly are initialisms, but our squidly brothers find ways to pronounce them.

Those crazy Navy "words" drive me nuts when I come across them in the history books.

[SarDragon]

Capitalization makes it clear when a word is intended to be an initialism. Our dear leader, is "POTUS" spoken as a word, and always capitalized, but clearly an initialism.

Does it?

Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation -> LASER -> laser

Tactical Air Navigation -> TACAN

Radio Detection and Ranging -> RADAR -> radar

Acronyms and initialisms are abbreviations formed from the initial components in a phrase or name. These components may be individual letters (as in CEO) or parts of words (as in Benelux and Ameslan). There is no universal agreement on the precise definition of the various terms (see nomenclature), nor on written usage (see orthographic styling). While popular in recent English, such abbreviations have historical use in English as well as other languages. As a type of word formation process, acronyms and initialisms are viewed as a subtype of blending.

and

Although the term acronym is widely used to describe any abbreviation formed from initial letters, most dictionaries define acronym to mean "a word" in its original sense, while some include a secondary indication of usage, attributing to acronym the same meaning as that of initialism. According to the primary definition found in most dictionaries, examples of acronyms are NATO, scuba, and radar, while examples of initialisms are FBI and HTML.

[Hawk200]

If anyone really cares, "the" is more proper grammar.

That's where the confusion comes in, "the" sounds better, but isn't correct. The same thing happens when people refer to
a ship.

It's "Enterprise" not "The Enterprise".

I always thought "the starship Enterprise" was most appropriate.

[SarDragon]

If anyone really cares, "the" is more proper grammar.

That's where the confusion comes in, "the" sounds better, but isn't correct. The same thing happens when people refer to
a ship.

It's "Enterprise" not "The Enterprise".

That depends entirely which one you are discussing. If it's NCC-1701 [series], you can call it what you want.

In my exposure to USN vessels (a lifelong thing), I have more frequently heard ships called "the [ship's name]".  Another oft heard referential term is USS [ship's name], without 'the'.

[brenaud]

Captain Kirk used to say "THE Enterprise."

When I saw the title of the thread, the first thing that came to mind was we could take after the supporters of a certain university in Columbus, OH.  So we could be "THE CAP" instead of "the CAP".

[♠SARKID♠]

Hello. I've seen numerous people say something like "in the CAP", and numerous others just say "in CAP". Is there a correct way of saying it, or are both interchangable?

2. Description:
  a.  Name. When used as a proper noun, the name Civil Air Patrol will be used as written without the definitive article "the" preceding it.

Case closed

[vento]

^^  :clap:

[Major Lord]

Hello. I've seen numerous people say something like "in the CAP", and numerous others just say "in CAP". Is there a correct way of saying it, or are both interchangable?

2. Description:
  a.  Name. When used as a proper noun, the name Civil Air Patrol will be used as written without the definitive article "the" preceding it.

Case closed

Than you SARKID, I knew there was a reason I liked you! My CAPR search-skills seem to have gone stale! Of course, the argument is never really over until it spins into a uniform question!

Major Lord

[AngelWings]

Hello. I've seen numerous people say something like "in the CAP", and numerous others just say "in CAP". Is there a correct way of saying it, or are both interchangable?

2. Description:
  a.  Name. When used as a proper noun, the name Civil Air Patrol will be used as written without the definitive article "the" preceding it.

Case closed

My god, great find! Thank you!

[a2capt]

2. Description:
  a.  Name. When used as a proper noun, the name Civil Air Patrol will be used as written without the definitive article "the" preceding it.

Case closed

Kill Joy...
I knew it was in CAPR 900-2, but it was too funny to watch the debate    .. as the use of 'the' is a pet peeve at this end..

[Major Lord]

Thank you for letting us enjoy the pain, A2Capt! Reading the reg, it appears that the question does not just clarify the issue of the use of "The", but also when used as a proper noun, it is improper to use the initialism "CAP" to describe Civil Air Patrol, and subsequently, you may use "The CAP" in written form only when CAP is not used as a Proper Noun. This is especially true if we consider the use of the word "Will" as a regulatory mandate. Do you agree?

Major Lord
The CAP Syntax Police

[SarDragon]

Thank you for letting us enjoy the pain, A2Capt! Reading the reg, it appears that the question does not just clarify the issue of the use of "The", but also when used as a proper noun, it is improper to use the initialism "CAP" to describe Civil Air Patrol, and subsequently, you may use "The CAP" in written form only when CAP is not used as a Proper Noun. This is especially true if we consider the use of the word "Will" as a regulatory mandate. Do you agree?

Major Lord
The CAP Syntax Police

Well done!