Do seniors use grade when speaking to other seniors?

[JeffDG]

That is just my opinion, but to me CAP is a professional place and time, and it should be conducted as such,

So? 

Use of first names does not denote non-professionalism.  In my office environment, an entirely professional place for which I am paid handsomely to act in a professional way, my co-workers are referred to by their first names, as is my manager, my VP and my Senior VP whom I report to.

Often I'm referred to by my last name, but that's because there are three "Jeffs" on my team, and it's just a lot easier than having 3 people answer!

[SARDOC]

That is just my opinion, but to me CAP is a professional place and time, and it should be conducted as such,

So? 

Use of first names does not denote non-professionalism.  In my office environment, an entirely professional place for which I am paid handsomely to act in a professional way, my co-workers are referred to by their first names, as is my manager, my VP and my Senior VP whom I report to.

Often I'm referred to by my last name, but that's because there are three "Jeffs" on my team, and it's just a lot easier than having 3 people answer!

I agree...even when working in certain military communities we frequently used first names among people I would consider the ultimate professionals.

[Eclipse]

Addressing other members by first name (or worse), doesn't, specifically, denote a lack of professionalism, however it can be one symptom
in larger problems, and the lack of courtesies and proper address is something you will nearly always see in failing units.

The expectation of formality is supposed to remind you we are more than a club.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Addressing other members by first name (or worse), doesn't, specifically, denote a lack of professionalism, however it can be one symptom
in larger problems, and the lack of courtesies and proper address is something you will nearly always see in failing units.

The expectation of formality is supposed to remind you we are more than a club.

Thank you, you hit my point faster and better than I could.

[JeffDG]

Addressing other members by first name (or worse), doesn't, specifically, denote a lack of professionalism, however it can be one symptom
in larger problems, and the lack of courtesies and proper address is something you will nearly always see in failing units.

The expectation of formality is supposed to remind you we are more than a club.

Alternatively, a unit with very strong cohesion will behave exactly the same way.  They don't need grade to tell them who's been around for a long time, they all understand the other unit member's contribution to the organization.

[Eclipse]

Addressing other members by first name (or worse), doesn't, specifically, denote a lack of professionalism, however it can be one symptom
in larger problems, and the lack of courtesies and proper address is something you will nearly always see in failing units.

The expectation of formality is supposed to remind you we are more than a club.

Alternatively, a unit with very strong cohesion will behave exactly the same way.  They don't need grade to tell them who's been around for a long time, they all understand the other unit member's contribution to the organization.

That's a reasonable assumption, and even holds true in some cases.  How many do you have in your wing, like that? There's not many like that in mine, none that I know of, actually.

These members might be comfortable in their own confines, and work well together, but few wings have units which can respond during ES or run major cadet activities by themselves, and when these "cohesive" members use the same approach during a major exercise or real-world, that's where the problems start.

[RiverAux]

That is just my opinion, but to me CAP is a professional place and time, and it should be conducted as such,

So? 

Use of first names does not denote non-professionalism.  In my office environment, an entirely professional place for which I am paid handsomely to act in a professional way, my co-workers are referred to by their first names, as is my manager, my VP and my Senior VP whom I report to.

In a civilian environment use of Mr./Mrs or some other company title is generally not expected, therefore not using them doesn't denote a lack of professionalism.  In the military and CAP, use of such titles is expected and therefore not using them does indicate a certain lack of professionalism.  Different cultures, different rules, different expectations. 

[Ford73Diesel]

Most CAP SM's I see use first or last names with no rank. Around cadets they use grade. That is personally what I do. I also will call someone by their grade the first time I meet them, and every time they have given me something else to call them..

In my reserve unit pretty much the only people that get called by their grade are (some )E-6 and up. The rest is first or last name, or a colorful nickname. The only people using the proper forms of address for everyone is the E-2s and E-3s fresh from boot camp, but that stops quickly. I don't think it makes us any less professional. We can be formal if we need to be.

[RiverAux]

I'm predicting that Sometimes will come in first, then Rarely, then Usually.

Well, I'll admit it when I'm wrong -- "Rarely" is ahead of Sometimes, but just barely.  Usually is, as expected, so far back as to not even be in the race.

[Sapper168]

I can honestly say that i use grade and last name as in Cpt So-and-So.  I even do it when talking about cadets.  Old brainwashing ...err... i mean...indoctrination ... i mean... HABITS are hard to break!

[MajFitzpatrick]

I think it really depends on the environment. I was going to just bash with the, "You should always use it." But some good points were brought up on when and where, like in the office. It may be just fine to use last names, or first names, depending on what is being done and where, and who is listening. But really we should always act as if the "boss" is watching. Be that the Squadron commander, the Wing Commander, ect. I do have some Senior members call me by my first name, and we are family friends outside CAP. But really I feel when they don't address me by my rank, its demeaning and them trying to assert some sort of power, even if I outrank them. On the other hand, two of my closest friends that are of my same age are in the squadron, and when ever we are in uniform, they never address me without proper rank and title. I am not better than them, and I look to them for advice and help always. I might out rank them, but it gets back to that basic concept. In this culture, addressing by rank is something that we do to show mutual respect. I am not conceding I am lower of a person than a LtCol. or a Col. I am merely stating that, the person has earned that title, and since I subscribe to the same system of rank, I acknowledge and show that respect. And though I might outrank all the Lts and Capts. I will still turn around and show them the respect for their rank and title as professionals within the organization. It may not be disrespectful in anyway by calling them Bill or Christine, but I am also not out on the town with them when I am at a meeting or activity.

[jpizzo127]

During squadron meetings, it's required. We encourage it whenever in uniform and especially in public and in front of cadets.

So what do you do when members don't comply?

A simple reminder in private does the trick.
It's never gone beyond that. The policy is generally embraced wholeheartedly here.

[mjbernier]

I chose "sometimes" -- I've noticed that whenever our Seniors are around Cadets they will always address each other by grade, but when it's just Seniors in the room they are somewhat more relaxed. Personally, I always address members by grade whenever we're in uniform (mainly out of respect for the uniform - something my dad taught me when I was a kid), but when we aren't in uniform I tend to be less formal.

I find that our e-mails tend to follow the same pattern. If there are any cadets on the distribution list or the message goes to someone outside the squadron, addressing by grade is always used; but, when it's just seniors involved we tend to use first names only.

Just my two cents.

Mike

[NCRblues]

I think our SM grade structure is a little muddled. Like a CFI coming in as a CAPT. A 1st Lt who has been in cap years and year, first as a cadet then as a SM, holds vastly more CAP knowledge than that CFI does. I'm not sure the reasoning behind making a CFI a Capt, and it is a little odd when you start to talk to someone who is a captain or a major about regs (or other cap related things) and they say "uh...im new, I have no idea what your talking about".

I have had many SM's quit after only a year or 2 in the program because of things like this.... just MHO.

[JeffDG]

I think our SM grade structure is a little muddled. Like a CFI coming in as a CAPT. A 1st Lt who has been in cap years and year, first as a cadet then as a SM, holds vastly more CAP knowledge than that CFI does. I'm not sure the reasoning behind making a CFI a Capt, and it is a little odd when you start to talk to someone who is a captain or a major about regs (or other cap related things) and they say "uh...im new, I have no idea what your talking about".

I have had many SM's quit after only a year or 2 in the program because of things like this.... just MHO.

You know what might work for that...perhaps instead of granting "CAPT" to a CFI, waive the time-in-grade to CAPT, so, once they achieve L1, they get 2nd Lt.  Once they get a Technician they get 1st Lt, and Level 2 gets them Capt.  If they can finish all that in 6 months, great!  But it would tell you that any Capt has SLS at least and a technician rating...

[titanII]

You know what might work for that...perhaps instead of granting "CAPT" to a CFI, waive the time-in-grade to CAPT, so, once they achieve L1, they get 2nd Lt.  Once they get a Technician they get 1st Lt, and Level 2 gets them Capt.  If they can finish all that in 6 months, great!  But it would tell you that any Capt has SLS at least and a technician rating...

I think that's a really good idea. It would provide advanced promotions to those who deserve it, while filling in all the gaps :clap:

[RADIOMAN015]

Always (at least) try to use  rank last name with all seniors when cadets are around.  Otherwise, first name basis BUT will modify at times depending upon the circumstances.
RM       

[EMT-83]

I think our SM grade structure is a little muddled. Like a CFI coming in as a CAPT. A 1st Lt who has been in cap years and year, first as a cadet then as a SM, holds vastly more CAP knowledge than that CFI does. I'm not sure the reasoning behind making a CFI a Capt, and it is a little odd when you start to talk to someone who is a captain or a major about regs (or other cap related things) and they say "uh...im new, I have no idea what your talking about".

I have had many SM's quit after only a year or 2 in the program because of things like this.... just MHO.

A CFI doesn't come in as a captain; he comes in as a Senior Member and needs to learn the program like any other new member.

Promotions aren't automatic. They should happen when the member has demonstrated they are "... performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended."

[NCRblues]

I think our SM grade structure is a little muddled. Like a CFI coming in as a CAPT. A 1st Lt who has been in cap years and year, first as a cadet then as a SM, holds vastly more CAP knowledge than that CFI does. I'm not sure the reasoning behind making a CFI a Capt, and it is a little odd when you start to talk to someone who is a captain or a major about regs (or other cap related things) and they say "uh...im new, I have no idea what your talking about".

I have had many SM's quit after only a year or 2 in the program because of things like this.... just MHO.

A CFI doesn't come in as a captain; he comes in as a Senior Member and needs to learn the program like any other new member.

Promotions aren't automatic. They should happen when the member has demonstrated they are "... performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended."

Unfortunately in my area, commanders use advanced rank as a recruitment tool. I can not tell you the amount of times I have come across "oh your a CFI, well you can come in as a CAPT."

If i was running the show it would not be this way, but I am not....at least not yet...

[Eclipse]

It's interesting how the grade is used as a recruiting tool, but no one seems to realize that goes both ways.

I've had more than a few situations where someone with advanced grade were found to be lacking in very basic CAP knowledge on a regular
basis, which isn't the greatest thing for the moral of either the member or those who need to deal with him.