Dual CAP-SDF status

[RiverAux]

Eureka!  I've figured out a way to resolve some of the issues discussed in the Structural Change and other threads regarding closer CAP relationship with the National Guard that could lead to potentially more missions and/or funding and/or training facilities & opportunities. 

Now, this is aimed strictly at the state level and can work under CAP's current overall structure, whether we got moved to the National Guard Bureau, 1st AF or any other agency you wish to dream up. 

What is the solution: 
1.  Develop an MOU between CAP and each state that wants to go this route that is somewhat similar to the CAP-CG Aux MOU.  The key part of that MOU allows members of the CG Aux to crew on CAP planes and CAP members to crew on CG Aux planes on training or actual missions.

2.  Allow CAP aircrew members to enlist in the State Defense Force for that state.

3.  The MOU would be structured primarily to deal with missions for which the NG needs CAP aerial support but that CAP would not normally be able to undertake due to posse comitatus or other similar concerns. 

4.  Under the MOU for these missions, CAP would allow the use of CAP aircraft for NG/SDF missions so long as the only SDF members on board were current and qualified CAP members for the positions in which they would be placed.  In essence CAP would technically be loaning the planes to the SDF with the condition that they be crewed by members of CAP who were on SDF duty at the time.  Basically this would be no different than the NG using equipment paid for by the federal government to carry out missions on state status that they could not do if they were on federal duty. 

5.  Under the MOU the SDF would assume all responsibility for fuel, liability, insurance, damage to the planes, etc on these missions.  This would be necessary so as to not negatively impact CAP's insurance obligations. 

Devil's Advocate:
A.  Only about half the states have any sort of SDF now though almost all have laws authorizing them to be created when needed.  For those states without SDFs it would be a headache to get them created.
B.  Even in states with SDFs, the NG would really have to want the type of support CAP can provide in order to want to go through the hassles necessary to make this idea work.  However, if they aren't willing to do that I very much doubt they would be willing to go with any of the other NG-centric ideas presented here.
C.  Some CAP regulations would need changing.  At a minimum would probably need to create a new mission symbol to account for these sorts of missions and some exceptions to the flight release rules, and 60-3.
D. Fear of "liability" issues on the part of the NG has hampered SDF development in many states.  Some would definetely balk at this.  But again, if they really need us, they have to be willing to step up. 

Anyway, I'm not necessarily advocating it, but since no one has presented any other detailed plan on exactly how CAP could get integrated into the NG strucuture, I thought I would put it out there. 

Fire away!

[Major Carrales]

A few pot shots, if I may?  In the friendly spirit of Devil's Advocacy...

1) SDF units report to the Governor of each state, this may create a duality.  In the event one is on a SDF mission and an AF missions comes along, I don't think the Gov is going to like his mission cancelled because of Federalism's doctrine of the Federal Government being Supreme over the States.

2) As an SFD member one might be called into Federal Service or National Guard Service as per standard practice.  This would, in my opinion, cause a "weirdness" with the USAF.

3) What rank would these people hold?  Would it be equal to CAP rank or by "enlisted" do you mean in every since of the word?  Should the SDF be federalized for whatever reason and a CAP officer extended the rank of, let's say in my case MAJOR, would that make CAP Officer an Active Duty Major?

I believe that if the CAP went into the NG structure it would have to forfeit its "auxiliary" status.  Plus, being a part of the NG might involve being paid as an Airman.  There are likely thousands of CAP Officers who joined because they wanted to serve in a unique way as a Volunteer.  Suddenly finging one's self in the Air National Guard might not not be what some signed on for.

I wouldn't mind being a CAP/ANG type...but some might.

[mikeylikey]

I doubt the SDF's would assume liability for an aircraft that is flown by CAP.  Thats like saying "heres my car, you can drive it but if you wreck it your insurance must pay for it". 

[DeputyDog]

2.  Allow CAP aircrew members to enlist in the State Defense Force for that state.

A problem that I see with this is that it will restrict who can do this. Some CAP members with aircrew ratings are also in the National Guard, Reserves and are on active duty with the military. For instance, a CAP aircrew member who happens to be in the Army Reserve in California could not enlist into the California State Military Reserve. That wouldn't affect a good number of our personnel, but it could be problematic if two out of the four mission pilots in an area happen to be in the National Guard.

5.  Under the MOU the SDF would assume all responsibility for fuel, liability, insurance, damage to the planes, etc on these missions.  This would be necessary so as to not negatively impact CAP's insurance obligations.

This sounds good...but how many SDFs are funded to the point where they can afford this? One aircraft kissing a radio tower would wipe out a SDF's budget for the next few years.

[DeputyDog]

3) What rank would these people hold?  Would it be equal to CAP rank or by "enlisted" do you mean in every since of the word?  Should the SDF be federalized for whatever reason and a CAP officer extended the rank of, let's say in my case MAJOR, would that make CAP Officer an Active Duty Major?

No it wouldn't. If say a CAP Major was "dual-enlisted (appointed-commissioned)" and the SDF was actually federalized, they would be federalizing you as whatever SDF grade/rank you were. The idea I am getting from RiverAux is that those members would be distinct, separate members of CAP and the SDF while being used by both. SDFs have different standards for officers than the CAP does, so I doubt they would be bringing over CAP officers at equivalent grades.

An example...I am a Major in the CAP and talked to a SDF recruiter about joining. I got offered the rank of First Lieutenant only because I have a bachelor's degree, experience in the "branch" area and I am former military. CAP service and training counted for nothing (rank wise).

[RiverAux]

Yes, this would probably result in a restriction on which CAP people could participate in the program, if for no other reason than age restrictions on being in SDFs.  Depending on your state they are probably in the 60-70 years old.

1) SDF units report to the Governor of each state, this may create a duality.  In the event one is on a SDF mission and an AF missions comes along, I don't think the Gov is going to like his mission cancelled because of Federalism's doctrine of the Federal Government being Supreme over the States.

This would need to be handled as part of the MOU.  Every CAP MOU I've seen says that any AF missions have priority over other missions and I expect this would be the same with this proposal.  This really isn't any different than the fact that the feds have priority use of the NG if they want it. 

2) As an SFD member one might be called into Federal Service or National Guard Service as per standard practice.  This would, in my opinion, cause a "weirdness" with the USAF.

Current federal law prohibits SDFs from being called into federal service so this isn't an issue.  Yes, the law could be changed but it is doubtful this would happen. 

3) What rank would these people hold?  Would it be equal to CAP rank or by "enlisted" do you mean in every since of the word?  Should the SDF be federalized for whatever reason and a CAP officer extended the rank of, let's say in my case MAJOR, would that make CAP Officer an Active Duty Major?

This would be totally up to the SDF and their policies.  Again, SDFs cannot be federalized so that isn't an issue. 

believe that if the CAP went into the NG structure it would have to forfeit its "auxiliary" status.  Plus, being a part of the NG might involve being paid as an Airman.  There are likely thousands of CAP Officers who joined because they wanted to serve in a unique way as a Volunteer.  Suddenly finging one's self in the Air National Guard might not not be what some signed on for.

Some SDFs get paid while on state active duty while others do not.  This would totally be at the discretion of the state. 

This sounds good...but how many SDFs are funded to the point where they can afford this? One aircraft kissing a radio tower would wipe out a SDF's budget for the next few years.

I doubt the SDF's would assume liability for an aircraft that is flown by CAP.  Thats like saying "heres my car, you can drive it but if you wreck it your insurance must pay for it". 

If they want the benefit of using a plane bought and maintained at the cost of the AF they have to be willing to pony up something here. 

Under this theory I suspect that there would be a small subset of CAP members in each state that would have dual status.  When a mission came up that could only be done by dual CAP-SDF members the crew would be chosen from among those people. 

Oh, another thing that would probably have to go into the MOU would be an agreement on the part of the SDF to incorporate applicable CAP regulations into its own regulations.  For example, SDF Air Unit Regulation #1 might be:  "SDF air crews must be current and qualified in accordance with CAP Regulation 60-3".  This would guarantee CAP that the SDF wouldn't be using CAP planes to buzz down at 100' which would not be allowed under 60-1.  I have seen regulations incorporating the regulations of other agencies before, so this wouldn't be a stretch. 

The whole reason I bring this up is because some have proposed putting CAP under the operational control of the Adjutant General in each state.  I see no logical way for this to happen without changing a bunch of federal and state laws.  The CAP-SDF joint member proposal would give the TAG the advantage of using CAP for normal CAP missions (SAR, DR, etc) by just requesting it through normal channels, but would also allow them to use CAP assets for missions that CAP normally couldn't perform.  It does rest entirely on how much the NG really needs us for these missions.  I personally don't see a big need, but for those wanting some NG-CAP relationship this is the only logical route to it that I've found that could be done without changing a bunch of laws. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Some states, I know Ohio does, have laws prohibiting groups from sponsoring enlistments into the State Defense Forces.

Some CAP officers will not be qualified for officer rank in the SDF.  SDF standards are higher for officer accessions.

Joe's concern about the SDF being federalized is not an issue.  They cannot be federalized.  That's why they exist, to provide a military force to the Gov. when the NG is in federal service.  But...

CAP is federal, and federal law prohibits any federal support to SDF's.  This might be a problem.  If it isn't a problem, I'm sure there is some JAG somewhere who will make it a problem.

The duality is a non-issue.  Federal CAP missions would have to take priority, and NG officers are used to that situation, since they face the same duality with their own units.

These are just some initial concerns, and possible war-stoppers.   Let me think about this for a while.

[ADCAPer]

They cannot be federalized.  That's why they exist, to provide a military force to the Gov. when the NG is in federal service.

I don't know all the ins and outs about this subject, but I have heard some conversations where CAP people were wondering about what would happen if a Governor actually called out a SDF at the same time there was a CAP misson going on. 

I don't know if it would cause a major problem for the odd squadron member from here or there to belong to both CAP and a state DF, but from what I understand, the GA Wing Commander happens to hold a fairly high position in the GA SDF chain. I wonder which way he would go if something happened that required him to be in both positions at the same time?

[RiverAux]

Some states, I know Ohio does, have laws prohibiting groups from sponsoring enlistments into the State Defense Forces.

That is a pretty common law aimed at things like having a VFW group form a militia and then try to get it recognized by the state (this was actually pretty common during WWI and many VFWs & American Legion posts made similar offers early on in WWII).  I think you would have to structure it so that CAP members would have to apply individually to join the SDF.  However, this could be a legitimate issue depending on the state.  

Some CAP officers will not be qualified for officer rank in the SDF.  SDF standards are higher for officer accessions.

Undoubtedly.  I don't see it as a problem though.  We know up front that only a limited number of CAP members would be eligible and if some CAP member doesn't want to participate because they might not get the rank they think they deserve thats fine by me.  

CAP is federal, and federal law prohibits any federal support to SDF's.  This might be a problem.  If it isn't a problem, I'm sure there is some JAG somewhere who will make it a problem.

This is a common misconception.  There is no such prohibition in federal law.  Below is a copy the only part of federal law that deals with SDFs.  I think you may have been misled by some language in proposed (and now dead) legislation that deals with SDFs which does have some limitations.

TITLE 32 > CHAPTER 1 > Sec. 109.  
Sec. 109. - Maintenance of other troops

(a)  In time of peace, a State or Territory, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the District of Columbia may maintain no troops other than those of its National Guard and defense forces authorized by subsection (c).

(b) Nothing in this title limits the right of a State or Territory, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the District of Columbia to use its National Guard or its defense forces authorized by subsection (c) within its borders in time of peace, or prevents it from organizing and maintaining police or constabulary.

(c) In addition to its National Guard, if any, a State or Territory, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the District of Columbia may, as provided by its laws, organize and maintain defense forces. A defense force established under this section may be used within the jurisdiction concerned, as its chief executive (or commanding general in the case of the District of Columbia) considers necessary, but it may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces.

(d) A member of a defense force established under subsection (c) is not, because of that membership, exempt from service in the armed forces, nor is he entitled to pay, allowances, subsistence, transportation, or medical care or treatment, from funds of the United States.

(e) A person may not become a member of a defense force established under subsection (c) if he is a member of a reserve component of the armed forces

See, no prohibition on federal support.  During WWII SDFs were armed and equipped by the federal government at 1/2 of what the feds were giving the NG before the war.  

I don't know if it would cause a major problem for the odd squadron member from here or there to belong to both CAP and a state DF, but from what I understand, the GA Wing Commander happens to hold a fairly high position in the GA SDF chain. I wonder which way he would go if something happened that required him to be in both positions at the same time?

Yes, the Governor would have first call on individuals that were dual CAP-SDF members if he wanted them.  That could be an issue on occassion.  But, since I don't see but a fraction of CAP members getting this status in any one state, don't think it would be a major problem.  But as to the CAP planes that would be part of the MOU and I am confident that CAP/USAF would insist on maintaining priority for their use. 

[Major Carrales]

RiverAux,

Before I continue...Please do not interpret my posts on this matter as "hostile."  One good thing about forums is that a person can present an idea and others can hinde its faults.  Those faults can then be mitigated and the idea refined.  I say this as a caveat to prevent this from getting personal, should anyone begin to take that route.

SDFs are great resources to their State and the over all defense force of the USA.  However, what would you say to the CAP Officer that suggests that the two should remain distinct and only develop MOUs that would best compliment eachother?

For example, MOUs that promote joint activities as opposed to joint membership.  Where each offers its resources to the other (i.e. classes, training and facilities) and where these qualifications et al are accepted by both?

Thus, CAP ground teams would get excellent training with the SDF of a given state and SDF Air Wings (like in Texas) could get some experience in CAP aircraft/Air ops.  This would lay the framework for unpresented cooperation during an disaster.

What say you...?

[BillB]

I believe I saw a post last year or the year before, that only 12 states had an SDF force. So basically the idea of MOU's with CAP-SDF sounds good, in practice it would not help CAP nationally, or it's membership.
Florida doesn't have an SDF unit because the Governor said the National Guard was large enough to handle emergenices. An MOU along the Iowa plan for each Wing might mean CAP could contribute more in each state partnered with the National Guard. BUT this would also require National Guard support of CAP which in Florida has been absent. The National Guard charge to Florida Wing for the facilities for Summer Encampment has raised the cost to cadets, double that at an Air Force base.

[RiverAux]

Don't worry I don't take critiques of IDEAS personally, just personal attacks...

SDFs are great resources to their State and the over all defense force of the USA.  However, what would you say to the CAP Officer that suggests that the two should remain distinct and only develop MOUs that would best compliment eachother?

The goal as presented by others was to come up with a way that CAP would be able to perfrom missions that we can't as "CAP" or USAF Aux due PCA limititations (real or imagined).  I personally don't think it is worth the trouble for the small number of missions, but was just presenting one way they could achieve their goal without having to change a ton of laws.  

During WWII CAP and SDFs worked extremely closely with each other and it seems that CAP Wing Commanders were commonly included on the staffs of the state military departments.  So, there is some history to back up the idea.  

For example, MOUs that promote joint activities as opposed to joint membership.  Where each offers its resources to the other (i.e. classes, training and facilities) and where these qualifications et al are accepted by both?

Except for the PCA issue there actually is no need for any MOU.  If the NG (or SDF) wants CAP for anything we're currently allowed to do (SAR, DR, etc.) they can just call AFRCC and we'll show up and the AF will pay the bill when appropriate.  If they need us for a strictly state mission now that they're willing to pay for, we can come do it if they call the NOC.  No need for an MOU.  Same thing with ground teams.  If an SDF and CAP wing want to train together the CAP people just need to put together a mission request and do it.  

I understand what you're saying and I wouldn't have brought up the idea at all except as an answer to the "law enforcement!!!" crowd here.  

Actually about 2 dozen states have SDFs.  If a state didn't have one, but wanted this sort of CAP support it would just take a stroke of the pen by the Governor and some staff work and those few dual CAP-SDF members would essentially be the SDF for that state. 

[arajca]

Actually about 2 dozen states have SDFs.  If a state didn't have one, but wanted this sort of CAP support it would just take a stroke of the pen by the Governor and some staff work and those few dual CAP-SDF members would essentially be the SDF for that state. 

If a state doesn't have a SDF, how can you have dual CAP-SDF members? BTW, I live in a state without a legal SDF. Although the laws permit it, the AG and Gov haven't seen need to set one up. I know there are other states with similar issues.

[RiverAux]

If a state doesn't have a SDF, how can you have dual CAP-SDF members? BTW, I live in a state without a legal SDF. Although the laws permit it, the AG and Gov haven't seen need to set one up. I know there are other states with similar issues.

Almost every state has laws authorizing the Governor to create an SDF.  All they would have to do is sign some sort of activation order and let the Adjutant General work out the details on the dual membership. 

Yes, many states have chosen not to have SDFs and I expect many states, even those with SDFs, would not be interested in this option either.   However, if a NG had a real need for light airplanes for missions that CAP members can't do, and were willing to jump through the hoops, this would be a way to do it.

All in all this is a much more likely scenario than changing every state law as well as federal laws to somehow put CAP under the operational control of the NG as was proposed in the other thread. 

[DNall]

Almost no states (mine being one of a couple exceptions) have an Air Force side SDF (state air guard). The simple fit is to create CAP on the corporate mission side as that entity (fit it in w/ Tx & Va somehow).

Anyway, I think there are too many problems here. First of all, I don't want to get out from under PCA. Why would I? I don't want to be involved in commercial law enforcement flying & I don't want members in LEO situations. Period. Outside of that case there is almost nothing that's been proposed for us to do that cannot be done under federal military authority. It may come down to who asks you to do it & how the orders are phrased, but there really is very little we can't do w/ smart people working the issues.

Second, I do think SDFs should remain distinctly seperate from CAP. For one thing, some of them suck (some are really good though). They really have even bigger problems than CAP does. Most are pretty much the same as CAP, w/ no employment protections, no pay, & really no mission to do. CAP is in flux a bit & needs to evolve to meet new AF challenges so we get back to indespensible status with them for troubled times ahead, and there are key factors that I thnk we can learn from SDFs on. In general, however, SDFs aren't any kind of solution for us.