Main Menu

U-Boat name

Started by 3xtr3m3gr33n, December 02, 2010, 08:48:28 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JohnKachenmeister

Thanks, Ed, that was exactly my point, except you said it better.

Credit for kills on submarines is STILL being disputed 70 years after the fact.  The problem is that a surface ship being forced to go underwater is an obvious sinking.  A submarine can operate normally underwater, and can escape sinking by doing what a cruiser cannot.

My point in the overall strategic sense of CAP's participation is merely a recognition that CAP's tactics changed from unarmed patrols to armed attacks, and within 90-120 days the Germans withdrew from the coast.  I believe the uptick in the tactical tempo was the deciding factor in Doenitz's decision to withdraw his force farther offshore.  Hap Arnold's decision to arm CAP planes placed hundreds more combat assets into the fight fairly quickly, and made the German tactical situation untenable.

Another former CAP officer

Smithsonia

#21
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Kach;
That is terribly nice of you to say.

My dad was a Navy Pilot in Korea. He once tangled with a North Korean Mig that went down. To this day he and another Navy pilot (his lead on this day) argued over who deserved that "kill". They were both there. There was another 2 men in the same fight. Everyone disagreed, if in a good humored way.

After listening to the argument hash-on for more than 50 years I am of the opinion that the Mig simply spun in after he overloaded his tail in an attempted high G yo yo switch against these two Corsairs in proximity to the ground.

I think it will be to the last man standing who will finally claim this air victory. So be it. The O-Club in heaven will eventually become tired of these two Navy "Aces" re-dog-fighting this long ago battle. By the way, neither man was credited with a kill for this engagement. Neither is happy with the Navy about this. I doubt the Navy cares.

The point being - War is a tough thing to divide up perfectly into neat boxes of credit.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

JohnKachenmeister

They have an O-Club in Heaven?

Cool!  The one here at Patrick burned down.

The issue of the victory may have been decided if the North Korean pilot was a member, but then again, I doubt that he would be at the bar and say:  "Neither of you two Running Dog Capitalists shot me down, I was just a crappy pilot."
Another former CAP officer

BillB

One question that may never be answered unless someone goes through German navel records with a fine toothcomb. Were any of the CAP Coastal Patrol aircraft actually shot down by German U-boats? To the best of my limited knowledge, this has never been explored.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

RiverAux

I don't recall reading about any CAP airplanes that just went missing without explanation. 

James Shaw

Quote from: BillB on December 05, 2010, 12:36:55 PM
One question that may never be answered unless someone goes through German navel records with a fine toothcomb. Were any of the CAP Coastal Patrol aircraft actually shot down by German U-boats? To the best of my limited knowledge, this has never been explored.

We have a list of all of the tail numbers for aircraft that was used by CAP during that time. We have never found one that was "missing" from the list. Former historian Col Les Hopper did a very extensive check around that subject and never came up with anything.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

JohnKachenmeister

Submarines would seldom "Stand and fight" during an air attack.  They would fire to reduce the effectiveness of the air attack while they dived.  The primary defense to an air attack for all subs then... theirs and ours... was to dive.
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

I think there was a note in one Jan 1943 uboat reports that said that the first sub attack on an aircraft occurred that month.

Smithsonia

According to NHQ in a summary written by National Historian Col. Leonard Blascovic:
The First "Kill"

It was one of these larger planes armed with depth charges that made the first CAP "kill." Captain Johnny Haggins and Major Wynant Farr, flying out of Atlantic City "CAP-Coastal Patrol Base 1", New Jersey, had just become airborne in a Grumman Widgeon (an amphibian, a plane that can land on land or water) when they received a message from another CAP patrol that "contact" had been made about 25 miles off the coast. The other patrol was low on fuel and was being forced to return to base, so Haggins and Farr sped to the area, while flying a scant 300 feet above the ocean.

When the Haggins-Farr patrol reached the area, no sub was in sight. Very shortly thereafter however, Major Farr spotted the U-boat as it cruised beneath the surface of the waves. After radioing to shore, and knowing that they could not accurately estimate the depth of the sub, the crew decided to follow the sub until (they hoped) it rose to periscope depth, when they would have a better chance of hitting the sub with their depth charges.

For over three hours they shadowed the U-boat and eventually ran low on fuel. Just before they had to turn back, the U-boat rose back up to periscope depth. Captain Haggins swung the plane around quickly and aligned it with the sub. He then began a gentle dive to 100 feet where he leveled of behind the sub�s periscope wake. Major Farr pulled the cable release and the first depth charge plummeted into the water just off the sub�s bow. Seconds later a large water and oil geyser erupted, the explosion literally blowing the sub�s forward portion out of the water. Shock waves from the blast rocked the patrol plane. As the sub sank below the surface, it left a huge oil slick as the target for the second run.

On the second run, the remaining depth charge was dropped squarely in the middle of the oil slick. After the second geyser had settled, pieces of debris began to float to the surface. The CAP Coastal Patrol�s first kill was confirmed!
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Kojack

Quote from: Flying Pig on December 03, 2010, 07:04:31 PM
  Funny how it was such a "significant" event in CAPs history but nobody knows anything about it or cant agree on what actually happened.

You're a cop, I'm a retired Cop.  How many bullets did you fire Officer?

I worked Homicide in the DC metropolitan area.  Wanna guess at how many times an officer SWORE he fired twice.....and his 15 round semi-auto was on empty when we check his gun with the slide locked back?

Not so surprising I think. ;)


I can imagine one of these attacks somewhat in this light....

"HOLY CRAP!  LOOK IT'S A F*****G SUBMARINE!"

"LINE IT UP LINE IT UP!!!!"   "I AM S**T THEIR SHOOTING AT US!"

(drop - bang)

"WHAT HAPPENED?"  "I DUNNO BUT THEIR GONE!"

"Whew....did you bring any spare underware?"

Was it a hit?  A sink?  Was there smoke?  De-brie?  No additional sign of the sub?

Now add that to the navigation of the day.  Just exactly where is that dead sub laying under how much water?

I'm not putting them down, I'm not saying they were not sinkings.  I'm just simply pointing out that there may be five instead of one or two. ;D


What they did in that day an era with what they had was nothing short of incredible.  Even if someday it turns out that not a single sub was even damaged, will it matter?

BillB

One question that has come up several times. Were any of the CAP aircraft on coastal patrol shot down by a U-boat? With the number of CAP aircraft missing on coastal patrol, it seems like it might be a possibility.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Major Lord

I think that CAP initially took credit for sinking U-869, off New Jersey. It was later found to have been killed by DE-252 and DE 331, without any CAP involvement. I have not been able to find any credible evidence that CAP actually sank an enemy vessel, but I have been lead to believe that there is some documentation showing we fired in anger....on something ( perhaps an enemy Sperm Whale....) I have also not been able to find any documentation that we were lawful combatants....we just sort of armed up and went hunting...most excellent! Where is that kind of CAP leadership when we need them the most? >:D

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

ol'fido

Just happened to watch Battle of the Atlantic on the Military Channel the other day. Of course, there is no mention of CAP in the episode about the first months after Germany declared war on the US and the losses we were taking on the East and Gulf coasts. However, they did interview the captain of the U-123 who said that they were "killed" or at least "reported killed"  numerous times during their cruises off the US coast.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

John Bryan

Another part of the World War II CAP story has been the German Admiral saying they withdrew "because of those [darn] red and yellow airplanes" i.e. CAP.

I have NEVER seen anyone name that German Naval Officer...it is always quoted as just a high ranking or German admiral. Does anyone know if the person has a name and if that quote can be proven?

davidsinn

Quote from: John Bryan on February 21, 2011, 11:38:11 PM
Another part of the World War II CAP story has been the German Admiral saying they withdrew "because of those [darn] red and yellow airplanes" i.e. CAP.

I have NEVER seen anyone name that German Naval Officer...it is always quoted as just a high ranking or German admiral. Does anyone know if the person has a name and if that quote can be proven?

I've seen it attributed to Dönitz but have yet to find prove of that. I honestly don't think it's a true quote.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn