Activities External to CAP / Cadet Active Participation

[TheSkyHornet]

If I may ask of you fine Cadet Programs people, what do you consider to be a reasonable absence from unit activities due to external events?

Per CAPR 52-16, 4-4:

a. Expectations of Cadets. Cadets are required to participate actively in their local unit if they are
to progress in the Cadet Program. Excessive, unexcused absences may be cause for termination from CAP
(see CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination). Any school-related activity is considered an excused absence.
Cadets are responsible for informing their leaders in advance if they expect to be absent. School-related
absences do not excuse cadets from promotion requirements.

b. Cadet Retention. All cadet and composite squadrons will maintain attendance rosters and monitor
their cadet membership retention rate, especially for first-year cadets. When first-year cadets do not attend
any cadet activities within the previous 30 days, the unit commander will ensure someone contacts them to
invite them to participate more actively or learn why they have not been attending CAP events. Any unit
that can show it actively reaches out to absent cadets satisfies the intent of this rule.

How do you handle cadets who are gone for prolonged periods of time, for athletics functions or other extracurricular activities related to school?

By prolonged, I would say anywhere from a month to three months.

I have had cadets say they cannot attend a few meetings in a row due to school plays, which is not a huge deal. I just make sure they understand that they are responsible for their progression, and a lack of attendance can mean missing Character Development and their CPFT testing day.

But then I also have come across some people who feel that we cannot hold a cadet up from promoting so long as they get in their CDI, CPFT, and complete the online tests, despite very little involvement in their unit. Would a C/CMSgt be excused for 2 months due to a school sport and still expect to reach C/2d Lt because they returned and immediately got their CDI Forum and CPFT score in?

There seem to be a lot of what-ifs, and some of these scenarios are ones that I may be coming across in the near future as I'm hearing more and more about joining certain school sports or other team activities as cadets age and enter mid-phases of high school.

I also have those parents on my back who want their "kids" to get into service academies, so sports are a huge thing, but at the same time, I need cadets in duty positions to function in their roles. Not showing up to a meeting means I may have a Flight Sergeant or First Sergeant who isn't there to lead their cadets. If I make the stake that that particular cadet might not be privileged to hold a duty position if they are going to be absent for several months, I get a lot of shack on that.

So, there's me reaching out to the CAP Talk world to hear what some other units have to say, and I'm even hoping for someone to not be on my side of the tracks with this to allow me to see it from another perspective that maybe I'm not considering/understanding.

[Toad1168]

I definitely understand your concerns and the need to make sure they are active.  However, we must realize that we are in direct competition with other activities.  Ask yourself, is the cadet a valued member of the squadron that would merit the leeway?  If you lay down the iron fist and say "if you're not here, then you're out" I guarantee the cadet will choose the out. 

When I was a senior cadet, I had a lot of stuff I was involved in.  Once I got to college, the idea that I would be at the meetings was ludicrous.  I was three hours away and the nearest squadron to campus was about 45 minutes.  My home squadron didn't blink an eye and I attended when able.  I kept progressing and made Spaatz.

We need to do what is in the best interests of both the program and the cadet.  If we take a hard line and say it's CAP and nothing else, CAP will lose most times. 

[TheSkyHornet]

This was a discussion that came up when a group of us talked about it:
"Tell me one baseball coach that says it's okay to miss their meets because you have soccer which meets the same day."
The point was that why is it CAP that has to be given up every time? Why is football or dance more important?

As a caveat, I'm strictly referring to middle school and high-schoolers, not college. And it's in regard to progression and duty assignments, not so much "Should we keep them in the unit?" Hiatus, if you will.

[Майор Хаткевич]

This was a discussion that came up when a group of us talked about it:
"Tell me one baseball coach that says it's okay to miss their meets because you have soccer which meets the same day."
The point was that why is it CAP that has to be given up every time? Why is football or dance more important?

As a caveat, I'm strictly referring to middle school and high-schoolers, not college. And it's in regard to progression and duty assignments, not so much "Should we keep them in the unit?" Hiatus, if you will.

Cadets can certainly prioritize other activities over CAP. As long as they understand that we can't have the 1st Sgt bow out for months and expect to be the first shirt or promote right after coming back.


Excused absences should cover a cadet from termination, but promotion isn't just checking the boxes.

[CAPDCCMOM]

I will not "drop" a Cadet, if they are still interested in being an active part of the Unit. I will let them know that they will compromise their promotions, In other words, "you have to show up to promote". They also run the risk of being reassigned in their duties. Some positions, I need that person to be there. We also have an obligation to be sensitive to family needs.

I have a Cadet that will be serving as a Flight Sergeant at this Year's Basic Encampment. He has spent almost every weekend out of five doing CAP events. This weekend is a CAC, he asked to be excused in order to spend time with his Dad. The Encampment falls on Father's Day. I gave the permission and excused him. I anticipate catching flack over this, but I felt the the excuse was reasonable, and he gave appropriate notice. If I had denied the permission, I would put my Cadet in a "no win" situation, and alienate a parent. That would be really good for retention of a promising Cadet (note hint of sarcasm).

I also have a C/LtCol that attends the local University. He is great with the Cadets. I assured him when he transferred that I would not hold his duty to his studies against him, and I won't.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well, in the case of C/LtCols...it's a wee bit different. Add college to that, and that makes it even more reasonable.

[abdsp51]

Excused absences protect a cadet from termination yes and also should not hamper cadet progression as well.   In this day were academics (regardless of level) need to be a priority cadets shouldn't IMHO be held back on promotions. 

Now this gets tricky when you start talking staff assignments and other activities.  But need to look at is the cadet actively participating when they are able to attend meetings and activities?  Are they given their all when they do participate?

Huge difference between a cadet doing all the above and those that just show to check a box and fill a seat. 

This is also why we have promotion committees and boards to make recommendations to the commander for progression. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Agreed, but active participation when absent for 3 months for football or other is tricky.

[Storm Chaser]

Excused absences protect a cadet from termination yes and also should not hamper cadet progression as well.   In this day were academics (regardless of level) need to be a priority cadets shouldn't IMHO be held back on promotions. 

If a cadet misses a couple of meetings because of school, then I would agree. But if a cadet doesn't show up for weeks or months, then I'm not so sure. Cadets need to be actively participating to get promoted. It really bothers me when a cadet doesn't show up for two or three months, regardless of reason, and then gets promoted on the first meeting he or she attends. I've seen it happen and it discourages those cadets that were there week after week doing the work.

[abdsp51]

Agreed, but active participation when absent for 3 months for football or other is tricky.

Can be yes.  But at the same time we can not nor should we be penalizing a cadet for anything academic related.  Not every cadet wants to go to a service academy or enlist in the service. And last time I checked we don't offer college scholarships.   

Can the cadet make meetings and other activities?  Are they giving their all and then some when they do show?  Need to take everything on a case by case basis and look at the total person. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Agreed, but active participation when absent for 3 months for football or other is tricky.

Can be yes.  But at the same time we can not nor should we be penalizing a cadet for anything academic related.  Not every cadet wants to go to a service academy or enlist in the service. And last time I checked we don't offer college scholarships.   

Can the cadet make meetings and other activities?  Are they giving their all and then some when they do show?  Need to take everything on a case by case basis and look at the total person.

Football, chess club, etc are not academics. They are as extracurricular as CAP.

[abdsp51]

Agreed, but active participation when absent for 3 months for football or other is tricky.

Can be yes.  But at the same time we can not nor should we be penalizing a cadet for anything academic related.  Not every cadet wants to go to a service academy or enlist in the service. And last time I checked we don't offer college scholarships.   

Can the cadet make meetings and other activities?  Are they giving their all and then some when they do show?  Need to take everything on a case by case basis and look at the total person.

Football, chess club, etc are not academics. They are as extracurricular as CAP.

If they are part of the school then they are part of academics.  Extra curricular yes I will agree with you on that,  however school sponsored they are academics. 

And maybe we as an org need to figure out how to be more competitive with these activities.

[kwe1009]

If they are part of the school then they are part of academics.  Extra curricular yes I will agree with you on that,  however school sponsored they are academics. 

And maybe we as an org need to figure out how to be more competitive with these activities.

I would not call sports or band academic because the student is not required to participate in them in order to graduate.  The teen needs to prioritize their activities in whatever fashion works best for them.  We should not simply roll over and allow cadets to miss months at a time and still promote.

I had this exact discussion with a parent who was upset that I would not approve their child's promotion to the Armstrong Award.  I told her that since her child only attended about 2 meets every 4-5 months it was impossible for me to judge his leadership abilities and determine if he warranted this promotion.  She was understanding but kept talking about all of the other extracurricular activities that her son participated in.  I suggested that if CAP was really important to him then he may need to drop something else or find a squadron that met on a different night. 

Unfortunately I haven't heard from that family in over a year so their decision was that CAP was not a priority and that is fine.  I won't 2B a cadet who is too busy to attend because that may change in the future and I know if they get a 2B they will be gone forever but I can't approve any promotion for a person that I don't see.  I can't judge if they have the leadership and maturity to hold that rank.

[Майор Хаткевич]

+1000

[Eclipse]

Seconded - you're either there or you aren't, the "why" is largely irrelevant, same goes for seniors.

[SarDragon]

I would not call sports or band academic because the student is not required to participate in them in order to graduate.  The teen needs to prioritize their activities in whatever fashion works best for them.  We should not simply roll over and allow cadets to miss months at a time and still promote.

That depends on the school. I took band for credit, at the same level as my other courses (English, Math, etc), and full participation was expected. Missing an activity could have an effect on my grade, if there wasn't a really good excuse.

[jeders]

I would not call sports or band academic because the student is not required to participate in them in order to graduate.  The teen needs to prioritize their activities in whatever fashion works best for them.  We should not simply roll over and allow cadets to miss months at a time and still promote.

I don't know about where you're from, but in Texas (and I would hazard most other states) you are required to take athletics and other electives in order to graduate. I used band to fulfill both my athletics requirement (marching band) and my general electives requirement. Thankfully for me, band and CAP almost never conflicted; but for some others they do.

Now, should someone who regularly misses meetings because of school-based extracurricular activities be promoted immediately when they come back? I would have to say that's a hard no. They have to prove that they are capable of taking on the responsibility of the increased rank, and they can't do that if they are never at CAP. However, those school-based extracurricular activities don't count against there attendance and they must not be made to choose between graduation requirements and CAP.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I would not call sports or band academic because the student is not required to participate in them in order to graduate.  The teen needs to prioritize their activities in whatever fashion works best for them.  We should not simply roll over and allow cadets to miss months at a time and still promote.

I don't know about where you're from, but in Texas (and I would hazard most other states) you are required to take athletics and other electives in order to graduate. I used band to fulfill both my athletics requirement (marching band) and my general electives requirement. Thankfully for me, band and CAP almost never conflicted; but for some others they do.

Now, should someone who regularly misses meetings because of school-based extracurricular activities be promoted immediately when they come back? I would have to say that's a hard no. They have to prove that they are capable of taking on the responsibility of the increased rank, and they can't do that if they are never at CAP. However, those school-based extracurricular activities don't count against there attendance and they must not be made to choose between graduation requirements and CAP.

Exactly. I'm not going to hold Model UN against a cadet if that's what they chose to prioritize, but I'm also expected to only promoted cadets when they show that they are ready and meet the expectations of the program. Can't judge the expectations when the cadet is absent for months at a time.

[TheSkyHornet]

If they are part of the school then they are part of academics.  Extra curricular yes I will agree with you on that,  however school sponsored they are academics. 

And maybe we as an org need to figure out how to be more competitive with these activities.

I would not call sports or band academic because the student is not required to participate in them in order to graduate.  The teen needs to prioritize their activities in whatever fashion works best for them.  We should not simply roll over and allow cadets to miss months at a time and still promote.

I had this exact discussion with a parent who was upset that I would not approve their child's promotion to the Armstrong Award.  I told her that since her child only attended about 2 meets every 4-5 months it was impossible for me to judge his leadership abilities and determine if he warranted this promotion.  She was understanding but kept talking about all of the other extracurricular activities that her son participated in.  I suggested that if CAP was really important to him then he may need to drop something else or find a squadron that met on a different night. 

Unfortunately I haven't heard from that family in over a year so their decision was that CAP was not a priority and that is fine.  I won't 2B a cadet who is too busy to attend because that may change in the future and I know if they get a 2B they will be gone forever but I can't approve any promotion for a person that I don't see.  I can't judge if they have the leadership and maturity to hold that rank.

So, I am in a predicament where I have some cadets who are absolutely phenomenal at their assigned roles and beyond. There is a lot of work that some of us senior members would be burdened with had it not been for these cadets stepping it at their own will and taking on additional responsibilities to help out.

But when those same cadets want to play sports come fall or spring, I am in a position where I might not be able to appoint this person to the First Sergeant role. I sat down with one cadet who said he would be absent for two, possibly three, months due to ski club, and I had to explain that I am in a really tough position to assign someone to the role of First Sergeant when they aren't going to be at the meeting for 2-3 months consecutively. That same cadet and I spoke two weeks later after I asked him to consider some other roles in the unit that maybe his schedule would permit. And he immediately sprung back with "It's not going to be a problem; CAP is more important. I talked to the catch and worked something out."

That was actually an easy situation for me. Now you start getting into cases where some of the other members in the unit have their sons/daughters in the cadet program. "He wants to go to the Air Force Academy and lettering in a sport would really help." "She is on the track team and they meet on the same day as our meeting." Add in that being someone higher up in the chain of command.

As said, this has nothing to do with whether or not someone is welcome, or if we can even recommend term'ing them. But even the best cadets I've got on my roster aren't going to be treated with some special favor when it comes to having a duty assignment. If you aren't there to lead the flight, or you can't be there to train the new cadets, you can't be the Flight Sergeant/Commander. What else can I do on that? (rhetorical)

I can always give out an administrative task or some behind-the-scenes planning, which can be in conjunction with a duty assignment. What I can't do is have someone not present for months at a time be responsible for seeing to it that things run effectively and are adapted to function throughout the meeting. If the team captain doesn't show up to lead the team on the field, is the coach fine with him hearing about it after the game and seeing what suggestions he can provide later?

I would not call sports or band academic because the student is not required to participate in them in order to graduate.  The teen needs to prioritize their activities in whatever fashion works best for them.  We should not simply roll over and allow cadets to miss months at a time and still promote.

I don't know about where you're from, but in Texas (and I would hazard most other states) you are required to take athletics and other electives in order to graduate. I used band to fulfill both my athletics requirement (marching band) and my general electives requirement. Thankfully for me, band and CAP almost never conflicted; but for some others they do.

Now, should someone who regularly misses meetings because of school-based extracurricular activities be promoted immediately when they come back? I would have to say that's a hard no. They have to prove that they are capable of taking on the responsibility of the increased rank, and they can't do that if they are never at CAP. However, those school-based extracurricular activities don't count against there attendance and they must not be made to choose between graduation requirements and CAP.

Exactly. I'm not going to hold Model UN against a cadet if that's what they chose to prioritize, but I'm also expected to only promoted cadets when they show that they are ready and meet the expectations of the program. Can't judge the expectations when the cadet is absent for months at a time.

I have had several cadets say their goals are to earn their Spaatz by (insert deadline). Great ambition. Try your best. I'll work with you to try and get you there. But if you don't show up, it's not going to happen. Earn is the key word. Being dedicated mentally doesn't do me any favors if you aren't dedicated physically.

It's a youth program, yes. But it's a leadership program. I'm responsible for 20 other cadets plus some senior members as well. You have a great kid and all, but your kid isn't under some special privilege of mine just because I like the lad.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Dont know your school system, but in New York City students need 4 credit hours of Phys Ed every year; two of Visual Art, Music, Dance, and/or theater; 1 of Health; and 7 electives. Phys Ed, Visual Arts, Health are not electives.

[EMT-83]

^ How many require participation on nights and weekends?

[Майор Хаткевич]

^ How many require participation on nights and weekends?

In my area, none. Being on the chess team, cheerleading, football, or other sports isn't a requirement, while gym class is for x amount of semesters.

[Live2Learn]

Agreed, but active participation when absent for 3 months for football or other is tricky.

Can be yes.  But at the same time we can not nor should we be penalizing a cadet for anything academic related.  Not every cadet wants to go to a service academy or enlist in the service. And last time I checked we don't offer college scholarships.   

Can the cadet make meetings and other activities?  Are they giving their all and then some when they do show?  Need to take everything on a case by case basis and look at the total person.

Football, chess club, etc are not academics. They are as extracurricular as CAP.

CAP is just 'another' extracurricular activity.  A lot of important activities (foot ball teaches teamwork and the importance of physical fitness, chess the ability to visualize and anticipate, scouting a whole raft of important values, etc., etc.) compete with CAP.  So, why the rigid view of CAP's exclusive demand on limited time?  I'm not tracking on the rationale.  Isn't online participation "participation"?  If the cadet can actively participate by attending meetings 9 months out of the year (or 6 months) doesn't that represent a significant chuck of their allotted 24/7/52/365?  How does pushing a cadet to leave CAP either serve the individual (a person who is interested in the youth programs of CAP) or of Civil Air Patrol as it strives to fulfill its mission of developing future leaders and citizens?

[Eclipse]

CAP is just 'another' extracurricular activity.  A lot of important activities (foot ball teaches teamwork and the importance of physical fitness, chess the ability to visualize and anticipate, scouting a whole raft of important values, etc., etc.) compete with CAP.  So, why the rigid view of CAP's exclusive demand on limited time?  I'm not tracking on the rationale.  Isn't online participation "participation"?  If the cadet can actively participate by attending meetings 9 months out of the year (or 6 months) doesn't that represent a significant chuck of their allotted 24/7/52/365?  How does pushing a cadet to leave CAP either serve the individual (a person who is interested in the youth programs of CAP) or of Civil Air Patrol as it strives to fulfill its mission of developing future leaders and citizens?

Life is choice.  As you say, the time is limited, but the rest of CAP doesn't sit waiting until you're "ready" to engage.

No one is saying you 2B a cadet the first meeting they miss, but if you're off for the whole Fall for football, don't expect to get promoted
the one night you come back, or have any position of influence in the squadron which requires physical presence, and at some subjective point, your absence starts to become an issue in the "failure to progress / active participation" category.

"Where's the Cadet Commander?"

"Oh he's a great kid!  He's in college, but he tries to come back for the holidays..."

"OK - where's the Deputy?"

"His track meets are the same nights as meetings."

"First Shirt?"

"Chess club."

"Flight Commander?"

"Same track meets - it's so great these kids are friends outside CAP..."

"What about all these cadets in the other room, who's leading them?"

"Sometimes one of the seniors will go in there and see what they are doing, but it's not as much of an issue as it was before..."

"?"

"Not that many show up anymore, and the ones that do aren't progressig and don't seem to have a clue what they are doing.
Kids these days, amirite?"

"..."

"Did I mention our Cadet Commander is in ROTC? Great kid..."

[Storm Chaser]

That's always been a pet peeve of mine. If these kids don't show up to football practice, they don't get to play. But if they miss a whole bunch of CAP meetings, they still get promoted. Not if I have anything to say about it.

Life is full of choices. If you want to progress in CAP, you need to put the same effort that you put in other activities. Period.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's always been a pet peeve of mine. If these kids don't show up to football practice, they don't get to play. But if they miss a whole bunch of CAP meetings, they still get promoted. Not if I have anything to say about it.

Life is full of choices. If you want to progress in CAP, you need to put the same effort that you put in other activities. Period.

Yep. I'm not sure why there seems so much disagreement on this point. CAP should not be what a cadet "eats and breathes", but there need to be expectations being met before promotions or duty assignments. I don't get how being a linebacker on the football team gets prioritized over CAP (or at least the expectation of participation and promotion).


Choices. Lots of choices, and probably one of the best lessons we can give cadets instead of ribbon and grade handouts.

[TheSkyHornet]

CAP is just 'another' extracurricular activity.  A lot of important activities (foot ball teaches teamwork and the importance of physical fitness, chess the ability to visualize and anticipate, scouting a whole raft of important values, etc., etc.) compete with CAP.  So, why the rigid view of CAP's exclusive demand on limited time?  I'm not tracking on the rationale.  Isn't online participation "participation"?  If the cadet can actively participate by attending meetings 9 months out of the year (or 6 months) doesn't that represent a significant chuck of their allotted 24/7/52/365?  How does pushing a cadet to leave CAP either serve the individual (a person who is interested in the youth programs of CAP) or of Civil Air Patrol as it strives to fulfill its mission of developing future leaders and citizens?

Life is choice.  As you say, the time is limited, but the rest of CAP doesn't sit waiting until you're "ready" to engage.

No one is saying you 2B a cadet the first meeting they miss, but if you're off for the whole Fall for football, don't expect to get promoted
the one night you come back, or have any position of influence in the squadron which requires physical presence, and at some subjective point, your absence starts to become an issue in the "failure to progress / active participation" category.

"Where's the Cadet Commander?"

"Oh he's a great kid!  He's in college, but he tries to come back for the holidays..."

"OK - where's the Deputy?"

"His track meets are the same nights as meetings."

"First Shirt?"

"Chess club."

"Flight Commander?"

"Same track meets - it's so great these kids are friends outside CAP..."

"What about all these cadets in the other room, who's leading them?"

"Sometimes one of the seniors will go in there and see what they are doing, but it's not as much of an issue as it was before..."

"?"

"Not that many show up anymore, and the ones that do aren't progressig and don't seem to have a clue what they are doing.
Kids these days, amirite?"

"..."

"Did I mention our Cadet Commander is in ROTC? Great kid..."

I think this truly hits on the nail of where I was hammering.

That's always been a pet peeve of mine. If these kids don't show up to football practice, they don't get to play. But if they miss a whole bunch of CAP meetings, they still get promoted. Not if I have anything to say about it.

Life is full of choices. If you want to progress in CAP, you need to put the same effort that you put in other activities. Period.

Yep. I'm not sure why there seems so much disagreement on this point. CAP should not be what a cadet "eats and breathes", but there need to be expectations being met before promotions or duty assignments. I don't get how being a linebacker on the football team gets prioritized over CAP (or at least the expectation of participation and promotion).


Choices. Lots of choices, and probably one of the best lessons we can give cadets instead of ribbon and grade handouts.

That's my point as well.

You can't do everything. You can't be on the ski team, the basketball team, and the swimming team all at the same time if they meet on the same days.

Why is CAP different? Why is it that CAP is the one that they give up? I guess that's a retention thing as well---what makes them want to choose CAP over football?

I do make a point about the progression of cadets as they advance into higher grades and duty positions:
This is not a free-for-all. It's a team; a family. We may not all get along, but we all have a job to do. Part of your job is to build yourself up to be on service, and in so doing, you will get to the top and your job is to help someone else succeed you. If you are here to be the team captain of a team that you don't like, and you think you can do it all on your own because it's your progression not theirs, I don't want you here.

If you do take that break, and you decide that there are more important things that need your attention, by all means. Talk to me when you come back. If there's work you can do outside of the meeting, great; we could use the help. But if I need you to show up and physically be here because that's the role you volunteered for, know this---you can't do everything. You have to make a choice. We can always figure it out and tailor plans based on our resources and scheduling. Nothing is set in stone.

[kwe1009]

Agreed, but active participation when absent for 3 months for football or other is tricky.

Can be yes.  But at the same time we can not nor should we be penalizing a cadet for anything academic related.  Not every cadet wants to go to a service academy or enlist in the service. And last time I checked we don't offer college scholarships.   

Can the cadet make meetings and other activities?  Are they giving their all and then some when they do show?  Need to take everything on a case by case basis and look at the total person.

Football, chess club, etc are not academics. They are as extracurricular as CAP.

CAP is just 'another' extracurricular activity.  A lot of important activities (foot ball teaches teamwork and the importance of physical fitness, chess the ability to visualize and anticipate, scouting a whole raft of important values, etc., etc.) compete with CAP.  So, why the rigid view of CAP's exclusive demand on limited time?  I'm not tracking on the rationale.  Isn't online participation "participation"?  If the cadet can actively participate by attending meetings 9 months out of the year (or 6 months) doesn't that represent a significant chuck of their allotted 24/7/52/365?  How does pushing a cadet to leave CAP either serve the individual (a person who is interested in the youth programs of CAP) or of Civil Air Patrol as it strives to fulfill its mission of developing future leaders and citizens?

For me if the cadet is active for only 6 months out of the year do to other commitments, then fine.  But during the period the cadet is out they are not going to get promoted or given a duty position.  Those are reserved for actively participating cadets.  I will never 2B a cadet for not attending meetings due to other activities but since they are not "actively participating" they should not expect to be given a duty assignment or promotion.

I don't see this as pushing anyone away from CAP for this stance.  I see it as following the spirit and letter of CAP regulations.  I haven't lost any cadets who were truly interested in CAP as something more than a resume filler.

As others have stated here, why should CAP be the organization that always takes a backseat without any repercussions to the cadet?  I fully support my cadets who choose to participate in other activities but I don't give them a pass for not attending meetings or activities.  That is not fair to the cadets who are there every week.

[Live2Learn]

For me if the cadet is active for only 6 months out of the year do to other commitments, then fine.  But during the period the cadet is out they are not going to get promoted or given a duty position.  Those are reserved for actively participating cadets.  I will never 2B a cadet for not attending meetings due to other activities but since they are not "actively participating" they should not expect to be given a duty assignment or promotion.

I don't see this as pushing anyone away from CAP for this stance.  I see it as following the spirit and letter of CAP regulations.  I haven't lost any cadets who were truly interested in CAP as something more than a resume filler.

As others have stated here, why should CAP be the organization that always takes a backseat without any repercussions to the cadet?  I fully support my cadets who choose to participate in other activities but I don't give them a pass for not attending meetings or activities.  That is not fair to the cadets who are there every week.

I was with you until the last paragraph. 

Obviously, if a cadet can participate in CAP for six months, nine months, whatever, then CAP isn't "always taking a back seat" during that serious chunk of the cadet's life. 

However, participating online is still participating.  For example, CyberPatriots is a big deal, and getting to be a big deal with national significance.  I'm sure most of us have seen reports of booming need for cybersecurity experts.  How better to train them than through a structured, principled program like CyberPatriot?  If a cadet can make the time ON THEIR terms to participate in this program, perhaps even mentoring other cadets who do have the time to put on a uniform and attend scheduled CAP meetings is this 'non-participation' that should have "repercussions to the cadet"? I don't think so.   Other leadership oriented programs targeted toward youth exist, and programs that allow significant growth in STEM and robotics  skills (again, a big and growing need).  Cadets who learn those skills may have opportunities to share them during periods of attendance - for the benefit of other cadets.  The arguments for presence at CAP meetings are important for the socialization and interactions opportunities they provide.  But, as is often the case, they are not compelling in all circumstances.  Some CAP positions (C/1st Sgt; C/Commander; C/whatever) require presence because that's where the role is needed - in person and at most meetings.  Other duties can be accomplished without presence at a high proportion of meetings.  Like it or not, a lot of adult careers now do not have an anchor to place.  I view a cadet who can function with a period participation, yet non-attendance as one who is learning skills that CAP and most public schools don't teach.

[Майор Хаткевич]

For me if the cadet is active for only 6 months out of the year do to other commitments, then fine.  But during the period the cadet is out they are not going to get promoted or given a duty position.  Those are reserved for actively participating cadets.  I will never 2B a cadet for not attending meetings due to other activities but since they are not "actively participating" they should not expect to be given a duty assignment or promotion.

I don't see this as pushing anyone away from CAP for this stance.  I see it as following the spirit and letter of CAP regulations.  I haven't lost any cadets who were truly interested in CAP as something more than a resume filler.

As others have stated here, why should CAP be the organization that always takes a backseat without any repercussions to the cadet?  I fully support my cadets who choose to participate in other activities but I don't give them a pass for not attending meetings or activities.  That is not fair to the cadets who are there every week.

I was with you until the last paragraph. 

Obviously, if a cadet can participate in CAP for six months, nine months, whatever, then CAP isn't "always taking a back seat" during that serious chunk of the cadet's life. 

However, participating online is still participating.  For example, CyberPatriots is a big deal, and getting to be a big deal with national significance.  I'm sure most of us have seen reports of booming need for cybersecurity experts.  How better to train them than through a structured, principled program like CyberPatriot?  If a cadet can make the time ON THEIR terms to participate in this program, perhaps even mentoring other cadets who do have the time to put on a uniform and attend scheduled CAP meetings is this 'non-participation' that should have "repercussions to the cadet"? I don't think so.   Other leadership oriented programs targeted toward youth exist, and programs that allow significant growth in STEM and robotics  skills (again, a big and growing need).  Cadets who learn those skills may have opportunities to share them during periods of attendance - for the benefit of other cadets.  The arguments for presence at CAP meetings are important for the socialization and interactions opportunities they provide.  But, as is often the case, they are not compelling in all circumstances.  Some CAP positions (C/1st Sgt; C/Commander; C/whatever) require presence because that's where the role is needed - in person and at most meetings.  Other duties can be accomplished without presence at a high proportion of meetings.  Like it or not, a lot of adult careers now do not have an anchor to place.  I view a cadet who can function with a period participation, yet non-attendance as one who is learning skills that CAP and most public schools don't teach.

That's not how the cadet program works. At all.

[Eclipse]

+1

[Spam]

For me if the cadet is active for only 6 months out of the year do to other commitments, then fine.  But during the period the cadet is out they are not going to get promoted or given a duty position.  Those are reserved for actively participating cadets.  I will never 2B a cadet for not attending meetings due to other activities but since they are not "actively participating" they should not expect to be given a duty assignment or promotion.

I don't see this as pushing anyone away from CAP for this stance.  I see it as following the spirit and letter of CAP regulations.  I haven't lost any cadets who were truly interested in CAP as something more than a resume filler.

As others have stated here, why should CAP be the organization that always takes a backseat without any repercussions to the cadet?  I fully support my cadets who choose to participate in other activities but I don't give them a pass for not attending meetings or activities.  That is not fair to the cadets who are there every week.

I was with you until the last paragraph. 

Obviously, if a cadet can participate in CAP for six months, nine months, whatever, then CAP isn't "always taking a back seat" during that serious chunk of the cadet's life. 

However, participating online is still participating.  For example, CyberPatriots is a big deal, and getting to be a big deal with national significance.  I'm sure most of us have seen reports of booming need for cybersecurity experts.  How better to train them than through a structured, principled program like CyberPatriot?  If a cadet can make the time ON THEIR terms to participate in this program, perhaps even mentoring other cadets who do have the time to put on a uniform and attend scheduled CAP meetings is this 'non-participation' that should have "repercussions to the cadet"? I don't think so.   Other leadership oriented programs targeted toward youth exist, and programs that allow significant growth in STEM and robotics  skills (again, a big and growing need).  Cadets who learn those skills may have opportunities to share them during periods of attendance - for the benefit of other cadets.  The arguments for presence at CAP meetings are important for the socialization and interactions opportunities they provide.  But, as is often the case, they are not compelling in all circumstances.  Some CAP positions (C/1st Sgt; C/Commander; C/whatever) require presence because that's where the role is needed - in person and at most meetings.  Other duties can be accomplished without presence at a high proportion of meetings.  Like it or not, a lot of adult careers now do not have an anchor to place.  I view a cadet who can function with a period participation, yet non-attendance as one who is learning skills that CAP and most public schools don't teach.

I'm with the other guys as well.  Our program (as evidenced by the Cadet Oath) specifically requires attendance at unit meetings and active participation in unit activities - and no waiver allows that participation in mandatory contact hours to be replaced by telecoms and emails and well wishing "on their terms".

So, I was forced last November to relieve one of my cadet Flight Commanders whose varsity sport practice was taking up his meeting nights. His devotion to that sport in lieu of his accepted CAP commitment meant that he missed making his Mitchell and applying for scholarships by the deadline (sorry, you made your choice). Further, a cadet who accepts a staff slot and makes that commitment and then abandons it in favor of an outside activity will likely see that behavior reflected in any letters of recommendation (if any) we write for him for college (and I think we're pretty good at it - we have four of our cadets currently at military academies, plus several ROTC scholarship winners).

The same holds true even for cadet non-staff. Four or five years ago, I had a cadet who started skipping every meeting, claiming it conflicted with his school Robotics Club (which he falsely tried to claim was an academic excused absence - NO, as it was a club, not for a grade). He was a single-dimension kid - robotics only, no PT, no leadership, no AE or CD, nothing else, which isn't the program. He begged me to approve his application for the CAP robotics special activity, which I did after counseling, with the understanding that he'd return to regular attendance. He came to two meetings, got slotted, stopped coming, and by April I called NHQ/CP and told them to dump him as he no longer had my approval to attend. You do not get to skip mandatory contact hours and cherry pick your activities in the CAP cadet program of record.


V/R
Spam

[Eclipse]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

[kwe1009]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

As someone who has been in a position to review those resumes and interview teenagers I can tell you that I look for quality over quantity.  Being "president of XYZ club, cadet commander of CAP unit with over 20 cadets" looks better to me than the laundry list of "participant or member of XYZ organization." 

This is also what I tell my cadets and their parents regularly:  Being a member of 50 clubs will not get you into a certain college or service academy.  Showing you are a leader in a hand full of activities will go much farther.  Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

[Eclipse]

Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

Yeah, this is important too, especially in a CAP context.

Most cadets only get one or two passes at major leadership positions at NCSA, encampments, etc.
They should consider that when making their choices - NESA will be there forever (in theory), but
you may get to be a phase 3/4 cadet with the opportunity to be a cadet commander once, and this time
next year, for whatever reason, you might not even be a member...

[stitchmom]

I don't mean the ribbon but in general I wish there wasn't such an emphasis on official hours for a 501c.  I haven't seen a whole lot of good or mature character from participants.  A kid who has learned to be responsible for themselves and watches out for those vulnerable in society contributes far more to society and eliminates the need or at least reduces the demand for many of these 501c places than these "service" hours. 

I'm not against organized projects. I've taught mine from birth many hands make for light work, no even steven when it comes to getting a job done,  if it's helping bring in groceries or an organized project. What I really don't like is what I would call veneration of the kids doing them. I had mine volunteer long before we knew of CAP, but it was for their own character and to learn professional behavior from the people working there, not because I felt like they were bestowing graces on the community.

It's like there isn't enough on character and too much on external stuff. 

[Eclipse]

It's like there isn't enough on character and too much on external stuff.

The problem is that "character" is a very subjective term, and hard to quantify on a ledger, and absent a mandate
by the school, some kids wold never do anything.

Evan as-is, my kids' school allow service at any time, so it's best to knock those hours out in the summer when there's less
pressure (and demand).  Mine are gardening at the library tonight for hours for next school year, but as always, there
will be a handful next May scrambling to drag old ladies across streets against their will so they can graduate.

[stitchmom]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

As someone who has been in a position to review those resumes and interview teenagers I can tell you that I look for quality over quantity.  Being "president of XYZ club, cadet commander of CAP unit with over 20 cadets" looks better to me than the laundry list of "participant or member of XYZ organization." 

This is also what I tell my cadets and their parents regularly:  Being a member of 50 clubs will not get you into a certain college or service academy.  Showing you are a leader in a hand full of activities will go much farther.  Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

It seems be to worse in the Northeast with the gazillion of activities they put the kids in. I don't mean being a  leader but how do they get anything out of them without having time to practice or work on them or develop more interest in the subject.  Not just with activities but even school subjects like events in history.  Even if they don't become Titled Leader, win the Hobby Award, or become The Expert there is something to really learning about something or learning to do something and it takes time to read books, work on a craft, practice music, or be prepared enough as a participant so the leader can present or teach without having to backtrack.

[TheSkyHornet]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

As someone who has been in a position to review those resumes and interview teenagers I can tell you that I look for quality over quantity.  Being "president of XYZ club, cadet commander of CAP unit with over 20 cadets" looks better to me than the laundry list of "participant or member of XYZ organization." 

This is also what I tell my cadets and their parents regularly:  Being a member of 50 clubs will not get you into a certain college or service academy.  Showing you are a leader in a hand full of activities will go much farther.  Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

It seems be to worse in the Northeast with the gazillion of activities they put the kids in. I don't mean being a  leader but how do they get anything out of them without having time to practice or work on them or develop more interest in the subject.  Not just with activities but even school subjects like events in history.  Even if they don't become Titled Leader, win the Hobby Award, or become The Expert there is something to really learning about something or learning to do something and it takes time to read books, work on a craft, practice music, or be prepared enough as a participant so the leader can present or teach without having to backtrack.

We had a former unit commander who took cadets to the local library to read to the mentally handicapped and provide them lunch.

Volunteer service or not, that was a huge retention issue.

[Alaric]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

As someone who has been in a position to review those resumes and interview teenagers I can tell you that I look for quality over quantity.  Being "president of XYZ club, cadet commander of CAP unit with over 20 cadets" looks better to me than the laundry list of "participant or member of XYZ organization." 

This is also what I tell my cadets and their parents regularly:  Being a member of 50 clubs will not get you into a certain college or service academy.  Showing you are a leader in a hand full of activities will go much farther.  Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

It seems be to worse in the Northeast with the gazillion of activities they put the kids in. I don't mean being a  leader but how do they get anything out of them without having time to practice or work on them or develop more interest in the subject.  Not just with activities but even school subjects like events in history.  Even if they don't become Titled Leader, win the Hobby Award, or become The Expert there is something to really learning about something or learning to do something and it takes time to read books, work on a craft, practice music, or be prepared enough as a participant so the leader can present or teach without having to backtrack.

We had a former unit commander who took cadets to the local library to read to the mentally handicapped and provide them lunch.

Volunteer service or not, that was a huge retention issue.

Good retention issue, or bad retention issue

[Майор Хаткевич]

Issues typically aren't positive.

[TheSkyHornet]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

As someone who has been in a position to review those resumes and interview teenagers I can tell you that I look for quality over quantity.  Being "president of XYZ club, cadet commander of CAP unit with over 20 cadets" looks better to me than the laundry list of "participant or member of XYZ organization." 

This is also what I tell my cadets and their parents regularly:  Being a member of 50 clubs will not get you into a certain college or service academy.  Showing you are a leader in a hand full of activities will go much farther.  Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

It seems be to worse in the Northeast with the gazillion of activities they put the kids in. I don't mean being a  leader but how do they get anything out of them without having time to practice or work on them or develop more interest in the subject.  Not just with activities but even school subjects like events in history.  Even if they don't become Titled Leader, win the Hobby Award, or become The Expert there is something to really learning about something or learning to do something and it takes time to read books, work on a craft, practice music, or be prepared enough as a participant so the leader can present or teach without having to backtrack.

We had a former unit commander who took cadets to the local library to read to the mentally handicapped and provide them lunch.

Volunteer service or not, that was a huge retention issue.

Good retention issue, or bad retention issue

Issues typically aren't positive.

That was right around the time the active participation dropped to an average of about 4 cadets per meeting on a roster of 16. Seniors cited the excuse as "summer---member participation drops" while I asked two cadets specifically for their reasoning which they both said "my parents may me go"--they are brothers.

Way too many 50+ year-old senior members who aren't in the day-to-day operation of the Cadet Program thinking they know what 15-year-olds like to do without asking them. Telling 20 people ages 13 to 17 that they have to spend a Saturday teaching kids ages 7-10 how to make foam gliders does not entice them much nor does it provide confidence in their leadership. Been there. Done it. It's horrific to watch. No wonder they would rather play football.

It's hard to treat a bunch of cadets like adults, because they aren't quite there while, while they plan their own activities and coach from the side. But that's how you teach them and retain them, in my own opinion, that is.