More money for CAP cadet program?

[RiverAux]

The Army Times (also in the Navy, Marine Corps versions) recently had an article http://vocuspr.vocus.com/VocusPR30/ViewNewsOnDemand.aspx?ArticleID=100043_24093_23922549&Preview=true on recruiting incentives (have they reached their limit?).  It concluded with this:

Longer-term suggestions raised during the presentation included loosening physical standards; boosting spending on youth programs such as the Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps and Civil Air Patrol; and expanding the troops to teachers program to increase the pool of positive influencers in the civilian population.

ARRRRMY training sir!
(name that reference)

[SarDragon]

Stripes.

[Eagle400]

Longer-term suggestions raised during the presentation included loosening physical standards;

How about loosening the medical standards?

It is absolutely absurd that someone who gets busted for posession (or being under the influence of) marijuana can get in, but a person who has been treated over 3 months for anxiety or depression is disqualified.

This is not what the Founding Fathers wanted.  If the current medical standards were in place during their time, we would have lost the Revolutionary War.  Everyone gets depressed at times; some are just depressed longer than others.  And anxiety does not always indicate that the person is a liability.  It is possible for someone with no medical problems at all to snap. 

The worst part about this is that depression and anxiety can both be overcome; they are not disabling and do not require medication to fix.

Fortunately, the Army appears to be keeping an open mind about applicants and their medical status and it seems to me like they are more fair (and common sensical) about it than any other service.

So I may be wearing an Army uniform soon.       

[adamblank]

I would agree on this.  I saw in ROTC so many awesome cadets get cut for silly medical reasons.  They were items like eczema, allergies, and the like.  It is very frustrating to see but maybe some sense will prevail in the coming years.

[mikeylikey]

^ The thing about taking mood altering and nuero-transmitter inhibitors is that if a Soldier (or Airman, Marine etc) is deployed and does not have access to the drug, they may have withdraw symptoms, and could possibly be a liability.  It is not so much that you have a medical condition that is the prohibiting factor for service, but the treatment you need may not be available to you at certain times while in the Service.  Honestly as a Commander I have enough to worry about in Afghanistan or Iraq, I really can't be worrying if PVT Snuffy gets his anxiety meds everyday, and whether or not if he misses a dose he won't be able to perform his duties (or worse, like shoot me for ordering him to go on a patrol when he is so anxious).  

You also can't compare today's military with that of 250 years ago.  More likely than not those with underlying depression and anxiety in the 1770's would most likely have been committed to institutions of the time.  Remember these drugs we have today have only been around for the last 50 or 60 years.  Before than you can read about the asylums that were created for people to be institutionalized in.  There was no other way for society to deal with those people back then.  They had no idea that an imbalance in brain chemistry was the reason people were bipolar, or depressed or anxious all the time.  They thought those people were mentally retarded (which is totally different than todays definition of retardation).  

I will be the first to say that the policy allowing waivers for drug use and felony convictions is PURE CRAP.  I hate it.  I don't like serving with people that months before could have been smoking up in the highschool bathroom.  If you couldn't follow the rules before you enlist I have serious concerns that you will be able to follow them after you enlist.  I had no trouble not smoking crack, why should I have to associate with those that did.  In fact I consider those people to be human garbage.

However, I will say that some misdemeanor convictions I will allow to be waived.  Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances involving misdemeanors.  Like the guy with 12 parking tickets who automatically gets a misdemeanor,etc.  Yes he broke the law, but his actions did not put his or anyone else's life in jeopardy.  

[smj58501]

Longer-term suggestions raised during the presentation included loosening physical standards;

It is absolutely absurd that someone who gets busted for posession (or being under the influence of) marijuana can get in...    

Actually, a prior possession charge is a prerequisite for OCS nowadays 

[mikeylikey]

Longer-term suggestions raised during the presentation included loosening physical standards;

It is absolutely absurd that someone who gets busted for possession (or being under the influence of) marijuana can get in...    

Actually, a prior possession charge is a prerequisite for OCS nowadays 

I was thinking more along the line of "you have to be smoking crack to want to join the army and go to Iraq".

[nesagsar]

What about people who have low level diabetes controlled without medication? Do they even let them in?

[adamblank]

DODMERB has a history of diabetes as a disqualification code.  With any disqualification code you can put in for a waiver, but (and of course I am not an AF doc) I don't you are going to get one.

[DNall]

Longer-term suggestions raised during the presentation included loosening physical standards;

How about loosening the medical standards?

It is absolutely absurd that someone who gets busted for posession (or being under the influence of) marijuana can get in, but a person who has been treated over 3 months for anxiety or depression is disqualified.

They're concerned obviously that a pre-existing condition will be amplified under combat stress & may cause that person not to function when his buddies are depending on him to keep them alive.

The trick is don't tell anyone about it, say "NO" to everything but the age you had chicken pox. Stick with those answers all the way thru. They have no ability to find much less check your past medical records. All they will ever know is what you tell them. And that goes for everyone. Freakin genius huh.

If you're really looking to join the Army, PM me. I'll be happy to help you thru the process & answer some question. But also, I can put you into our system so I get a couple grand referral bonus when you ship (which I put into CAP when it's a CAP member joining).

[DNall]

Back to the original point. The Army has been aware of CAP for a long time, but I do believe ACA is taking over that mantel in their branch. CAP is going to need that funding from AF, who is never going to be hurting for recruits, particularly for aviation fields. It would be more effective to pass a bulk cadet programs support item up to the DoD level.

[mikeylikey]

^ Ah....DNALL have you gotten anyone to join after they started the $ for referral?  I saw that they opened it up to Army Civilians now also.  I got one Cadet who decided to drop out of ROTC and go AD immediately to make me his "referrer".  I dropped the cash into the "Flower Fund" at the Battalion.  I could use the extra cash but I figure I really didn't get the kid to join, and some family may need it more than me in the future. 

I also agree the ACA will be spearheading the Army Cadet Program.  I forecast it may actually be a better Cadet Program once everything is in place.  (Is that bad for me to say that?)  They are focused on one thing and only one thing, Cadet Programs, while CAP is focused on multiple things that eat the cash up.  Honestly, ACA is strictly a military immersion program.  They do have the leadership building too.  I am actually excited to see how it goes, and what the bills they are passing up through the House and Senate will be.

[RiverAux]

The ACA is extremely unlikely to provide more Army members than CAP for quite a few years considering how small they are at the moment.  Since this is more of a short-term issue, CAP is a better bet.

Leaving that aside -- and I'm glad someone decided to talk about the actual topic.   I wonder just what they're thinking about doing.  Sponsor CAP encampments at Army bases?  Directly fund some squadrons or various wing activities?  Just how would they channel and use money to support CAP to indirectly support them?

[mikeylikey]

I seriously doubt the Army would fund anything CAP.  In fact, I believe if more money were appropriated to the AF for the CAP cadet program we would still just get the same amount we get now, they would cut other funded areas like ES, or AE and raise the CP specific funding.  I can't believe that many people are joining the AF because they were CAP cadets.    I would love to see statistics on that (NHQ??)

The reason people are not busting down the recruiters doors is that our educational system no longer stresses the "service to your country before yourself" concept.  With more and more schools joining the list of those already not mandating the pledge of allegiance each morning we wonder why the Services are hurting for men and women.  Perhaps if National Service was a pre-requisite to receive Federal Student Aid we would have a few more recruits.  2 years of your life serving your country either in the military or civil service system before heading off to college would not be a bad thing.

I stray...... this country needs a National Cadet program like those of the UK and Canada.  Run by each military department, with civilian volunteers assisting, and at no cost to the individual cadet.  And before anyone says "we already have that by way of JROTC in schools" I say a cadet program that is entirely outside the educational institutions. 

[Eagle400]

I would agree on this.  I saw in ROTC so many awesome cadets get cut for silly medical reasons.  They were items like eczema, allergies, and the like.  It is very frustrating to see but maybe some sense will prevail in the coming years.

Let me guess... Air Force ROTC?

I am a former AFROTC cadet who was medically disqualified.

[DNall]

^ Ah....DNALL have you gotten anyone to join after they started the $ for referral?

6 x 2k/per, and that's not really trying. I could easily do referrals full-time & make a bundle. Plus, I can refer for active, reserve, or guard. So, yeah it's not that hard.

The ACA is extremely unlikely to provide more Army members than CAP for quite a few years considering how small they are at the moment.  Since this is more of a short-term issue, CAP is a better bet.

I'm not so sure about that. In their shoes, I'd fund ACA expansion with recruiting as one justification. CAP will take their money, but AF will have something to say about that, and CAP will not adapt their program to funnel people more to mil service, much less the Army.

I do like when Army talks like this. I hope they start talking about some action, and I think AF will respond territorially. Then, I think Army will push funding to ACA, as I said to support dramatic expansion.

[Eagle400]

^ The thing about taking mood altering and nuero-transmitter inhibitors is that if a Soldier (or Airman, Marine etc) is deployed and does not have access to the drug, they may have withdraw symptoms, and could possibly be a liability.

It is true that some people really need those medications and can't function normally without them, but...

Consider this hypothetical example:

A guy stays up way too late, drinking way too much coffee for 3 years in high school.  He has no history of psychosis or dementia.  But he becomes so fatigued and stressed for such a long period of time that in his senior year, he snaps and his parents put him in a mental institution for what is supposed to be no more than 48 hours. 

Well, the doctor who runs the mental institution breaks the rules and sends him to another mental institution well before the 48 hours end.  The doctor in charge of the new medical facility determines that the patient needs to stay for 2 weeks in his hospital, and fills the patient full of drugs, many of which do not apply to the patient. 

The confused and frightened young man who has not even left his parents' house is now stuck with at least 4 different medications, all of which will take months to get off of without any withdrawal symptoms.  He is also stuck with having to undergo psychological and psychiatric evaluations/therapy, which will also take a long time.

4 years pass, and the man is now a junior in college.  He is doing well in life; he has a clean record with the law and is getting good grades in school. 

In the 4 years between that time and the hospitalization, he has been extensively treated and evaluated.  It is determined by his psychologist that he has no psychosis; his hospitalization was the result of poor choices regarding personal health (self-imposed fatigue and excessive caffeine intake) and he has been found to be perfectly capable of functioning normally and safely in society.  He has even had his brain function medically examined by a doctor, and nothing abnormal was found.  He has also undergone psychological tests, and everything was normal.

The man is still on medication, but is trying to get off of them for good and has made dramatically positive changes in his health as compared to 4 years ago (sleeps well, no more caffeine, etc.)  He sees his psychologist only on an as-needed basis; he sees his psychiatrist once or twice a month to monitor his health while he is getting off the meds.

This man wants to join the military once he has been off of all his medications for at least one year.  He has maintained a clean record with the law and will have his degree by  the time he wants to enlist.  He is willing to do whatever it takes to be an asset to the military and serve his country in the best possible way. 

Let's say that 5 years pass from the time he has gotten off all the meds.  He has not done anything to require re-medication, and his record with the law is still clean.  He is a  productive and stable citizen, who functions normally and contributes positively to society.  He views the unfortunate events of his high school senior year as a test of his character and strength, and is not held back at all by them.

Should the military give up on this individual?                                     

It is not so much that you have a medical condition that is the prohibiting factor for service, but the treatment you need may not be available to you at certain times while in the Service.  Honestly as a Commander I have enough to worry about in Afghanistan or Iraq, I really can't be worrying if PVT Snuffy gets his anxiety meds everyday, and whether or not if he misses a dose he won't be able to perform his duties (or worse, like shoot me for ordering him to go on a patrol when he is so anxious).

I understand, sir.  But what about the people who have been proven by medical professionals to not be a liability?   

You also can't compare today's military with that of 250 years ago.  More likely than not those with underlying depression and anxiety in the 1770's would most likely have been committed to institutions of the time.

Bingo!  And people wonder why there are so many problems with the mental health system in this country. 

Remember these drugs we have today have only been around for the last 50 or 60 years.  Before than you can read about the asylums that were created for people to be institutionalized in.  There was no other way for society to deal with those people back then.  They had no idea that an imbalance in brain chemistry was the reason people were bipolar, or depressed or anxious all the time.  They thought those people were mentally retarded (which is totally different than todays definition of retardation).

Yes, but there are still a lot of unanswered questions in this area.  I believe that medication is not the solution for everyone, and that many psychiatric doctors overmedicate patients so they don't have to go through the trouble of therapy and rehabilitation.

I will be the first to say that the policy allowing waivers for drug use and felony convictions is PURE CRAP.  I hate it.  I don't like serving with people that months before could have been smoking up in the highschool bathroom.  If you couldn't follow the rules before you enlist I have serious concerns that you will be able to follow them after you enlist.  I had no trouble not smoking crack, why should I have to associate with those that did.  In fact I consider those people to be human garbage.

I agree 100%, sir.

However, I will say that some misdemeanor convictions I will allow to be waived.  Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances involving misdemeanors.  Like the guy with 12 parking tickets who automatically gets a misdemeanor,etc.  Yes he broke the law, but his actions did not put his or anyone else's life in jeopardy.

True, and the military should look at all sides of every issue, whether legal or medical. 

[DNall]

actually, a truck load of parking tickets is kind of a pattern of behavior disregarding authority. That concerns me more than a couple moving violations of a more serious nature.

We don't take folks on meds cause they aren't going to get them while in action, and it takes a while for oyur blood chem to normalize after being off them. Plus as I said, pressure situations tend to magnify those natural tendencies. I'm with mikey, no desire to get shot by Pvt Snuffy cause he doesn't feel like getting out of bed today or is paranoid that I'm out to get him. If you're talking about a kid on some crap when they were 12, well now that shouldn't require a waiver, much less tracking down the original doc for an affidavit & months to process. Clearly folks are way over medicated by lazy doctors in the modern era. 

Can you lie your tail off & get in? Sure, but you better hope you really don't need that stuff or basic is gonna suck otherwise.

[COL Land]

I had the opportunity to brief the USAR General Officers' Steering Committee (22 General Officers, mostly MG) about the U.S. Army Cadets (USAC) last Sunday.   I also have a team briefing the Initial Military Training Conference (all BCT commanders, USMA and Cadet Command representatives, etc.) tomorrow at Fort Bliss.   What's significant about these two briefings is that my people went in on Invitational Travel Orders, meaning the Army payed the tab, rather than American Cadet Alliance, Inc.  The Army is becoming more and more involved in our future, which is very good.

Congressman Kay Granger (TX) introduced a bill several years ago to expand on all Cadetting programs; however, it died in committee.   That was then, this is now.  At the time, USAC (we're starting to use "USAC" more and more, rather than "ACA" which is the educational corporate umbrella) was not really on the national scene.   We anticipate funding in FY-09 based on the efforts of the past several years.  The key to our success in this regard will be that we are packaged as a "military career exploration" program, providing a realistic and challenging exposure to the U.S. Army.

Frankly (and I speak for myself here, not the organization as a whole) "Cadetting" in our nation would be best served if we had the same alignment among the services, with a single National Headquarters, chain of command, similar promotion system, etc., such as the Canadians or the British.   Currently, with all of the programs being run as 501(c)3s who are partnered with the respective military services, rather than operated by them, I don't see that happening.   The inconsistency and duplication of efforts is wasting a lot of talent and resources.   For example, why should the Army Cadet Corps, Civil Air Patrol, Naval Sea Cadets and Young Marines all run similar programs which are not service specific (let's say, a "Music Academy,") when it would make MUCH more sense to run one program, offered to all four branches of Cadets?  Shouldn't training such as CPTT be transferable from one program to another?   We are starting to create some foundation in that direction with CAP.   More in the future....

Respectfully,