Hawk Mountain Ranger

[FL169ESO]

Does anyone who has attended Hawk Mountain have an SQTR or 101 card as a result of the training they received there?

[whatevah]

no, but I can tell you about a few hundred members who got their CAPF 101 cards with various GTM levels from NESA this year. 

I'm sure they give out SQTR sheets, but issuing 101s at Hawk would only be possible to PAWG members, as it requires approval, and the PAWG people don't have approval for members outside their wing (AFAIK).

[Matt]

FL, I thinks I know where you were goin' with this...

As I was corrected of in the other thread, your squadron/CC can issue the SQTR provided you meet the Prereq's.

Like whatevah said, you Hawk can't give the approval for the qualification, however, I'm not real familiar with their training, I've heard some of it, but not a great deal of it.  If they have the ability and do sign-off on tasks you can get a good majority covered by them, but you'll still have to bring the SQTR back to your wing/CC or designee for the final approval.

Also, I would have to concur with whatevah.... NESA would probably be your better bet for acquiring ratings.  And, they have a decent course outline and time period in which they conduct it (week long to work on one rating [first year] is a nice shot to work on something).

[FL169ESO]

Good news folks!  Hawk Mountain does issue an SQTR upon completion of their course, signed by the course director, including two missions!  The only problem is finding people who kept their graduation packet...   

[Pylon]

...signed by the course director...

I don't know how well that should fly... 

thoughts on that?

[Matt]

depends if the director can count as the commander's designee.

[Pylon]

depends if the director can count as the commander's designee.

...but wouldn't that mean for it to count that the squadron commander of each member's unit would have to agree that the Director was a designee for signing off the SQTR? 

In this case, the commander has to pretty much give his or her "okay" anyways -- whether the okay goes to the director or the SQTR directly.  Why not skip the heartburn and get the SQ/CC to sign it in the first place?

[Matt]

Why not skip the heartburn and get the SQ/CC to sign it in the first place?

Yes, true, no, and that would be the LOGICAL way of thinking.

Yes, every unit commander would have to allow the director to be a designee

True, the unit commander gives his/her "OK" for you to be there.

No, the application does NOT include a responsibility transfer, they aren't the desginee unless your unit commander says so.

That would be the LOGICAL way of thinking, to have the squadron commander sign the SQTR, but you'd have to meet the pre-req's.  In theory, anyways.

[Mac]

If Hawk does the same thing we do at NBB, it worked like this:

1. National HQ gives some national updated in MIMS.
2. That person loads all the training done at the activity into MIMS with the applicable trainers CAPID, and date completed.
3. Once all data is entered, to include sorties, the request is sent through MIMS to the approving official (SQ CC and then Wing).
4. If someone didn't complete all the training on a specific SQTR thats OK, because it was still loaded into MIMS with what they DIDdo.

We at NBB then sent a letter home with each cadet stating how many sorties in each specialty were completed, as well as any find they were credited with, and what training was not provided at NBB for each of the 3 specailties taught (UDF, MRO, & FLM). The letter was then signed by the ES Director (myself) and the Activity Director.

In 2004 NBB was given a different access to MIMS, and all we could do was force an ES rating on someone but couldn't load all the tasks that were completed, and it was a real nightmare with people not getting credit for training that was conducted. I think the way we did it in 2005 was much better and it still allowed for the members commander to approve the rating.

[Matt]

I know that with MMU and the new IMU I believe (haven't toyed with it because I don't have a staff rating aside from MSA) can force ("slam") someone into a rating.  The issuing staff member places their CAPID in stating that the member is qualified to preform the specific job.

However, you can't update tasks within the MMU, but rather you have to do that within the WMU, which from what I've seen is about 30x easier than MIMS and it IS fed to the same server upon the servers syncing up.

[FL169ESO]

I should probably clarify my previous post on this...the individual tasks, and two missions are signed off by the course director (on a paper SQTR).  This leaves the unit CC the final sign-off, as well as the unit/individual member to submit the Form 100 to their home wing for issue of 101 card.

[Mac]

However, you can't update tasks within the MMU, but rather you have to do that within the WMU, which from what I've seen is about 30x easier than MIMS and it IS fed to the same server upon the servers syncing up.

I have toyed with IMU, and WMU, and they work great if your whole wing uses them, if not they can be a royal pain. I can updated all of my own tasks for a specific rating in MIMS in about 30 sec. But because nobody in our wing is listed in WMU as an SET, no tasks can be signed off in WMU.

I should probably clarify my previous post on this...the individual tasks, and two missions are signed off by the course director (on a paper SQTR).  This leaves the unit CC the final sign-off, as well as the unit/individual member to submit the Form 100 to their home wing for issue of 101 card.

So you are saying that the Activity Director signs off Every task for each individual who attends Hawk Mountain on a separate SQTR. that man must have one very tired hand at the end of the activity. I still find it hard to believe that there are still wings out there doing CAPF 100 and then issuing CAPF 101's the old fashion way. Both MIMS, and WMU made actually filling out the 100 a thing of the past.

[FL169ESO]

So you are saying that the Activity Director signs off Every task for each individual who attends Hawk Mountain on a separate SQTR. that man must have one very tired hand at the end of the activity. I still find it hard to believe that there are still wings out there doing CAPF 100 and then issuing CAPF 101's the old fashion way. Both MIMS, and WMU made actually filling out the 100 a thing of the past.

That's correct.  I have 3 cadets who attended Hawk, and each of them has a GTM3 SQTR filled out and signed by the director. 

What is WMU?  I'm familiar with MIMS, although at the squadron level I don't have access to it.  I've never heard of WMU until this thread.

[SarDragon]

WMU is the Wing Management Utility, a precursor to the current MIMS ES documentation. It was developed by a member of Oregon Wing, and was not used by every wing. We use(d) it here in CAWG, and it still does some things better than MIMS.

[Matt]

that and WMU's counterpart MMU (Mission Management Utilities) is quite nice for ICS based missions.

However, the new IMU (Incident Management Utilites) is MUCH better.  Although the interface looks nothing alike, it allows realtime (within 2 minutes) status boards.  Networked coordination, signins, tasking, communications and realistically everything except the morning coffee is offered.

If anything it is simply fun to experiment with.  The MMU allows for networked coordination, whereas IMU offers single client, network client, and above all WMU-clientside networking.

Two-thumbs up to Maj. A for it.

[CAPRANGER]

Good afternoon.  I know exactly what you mean.

I'm probably one of the only other RANGER's that are around this post, so let me answer you correctly.  I went to HMTN in '03.  You do your 9 days there, complete your RANGER Test, knives, survival, PT, knots, etc.  You graduate, clean up for 4 hours, then go home.  Obviously, sounds like you have your paperwork.  I got a 2-3 page document with all the tasks I ahd completed, including mission numbers and the School Commanders signature.  All you do is get an SQTR, have your Squadron Commander, in your state, put the School Comamnders CAPID inside the box, or online, put the mission #'s in, sign, sumbit, etc.  Not that hard.  It's just these folks that think that NESA is so awesome, and they are always right, more often than not, they are wrong.  I'm telling you the Hawk way.  Any questions e-mail me at CAPSearchandRescue@gmail.com.  Once a RANGER, always a RANGER!

"That Others May Live"

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

[whatevah]

It's just these folks that think that NESA is so awesome, and they are always right, more often than not, they are wrong.  I'm telling you the Hawk way.

pray tell, what exactly are NESA grads wrong about?  In my experience, NESA-trained members are a bit better at the skills most commonly used for CAP missions.  Hawk places more emphasis on skills that are needed in 1 out of 100 ACTUAL missions (and I'm not talking about ramp checks).  The survival skills are fun to learn and practice, but useless on most missions.

Both schools are cool, but one focuses entirely on skills required for missions, and one focuses on more survival-based skills.

[CAPRANGER]

Let me say this, I've been to both.  I know which one is better.  NESA dosen't prepare you for the field whatsoever.  Skills learned are good, but mentally the folks that come out of there are not ready.  I know what I'm talking about, I had a purely NESA cadet and senior on a 911T mission last year, with a horrific crash and 2 DOA's.  Hawk gives us the skills to make it, like it or not.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

[Horn229]

Let me say this, I've been to both.  I know which one is better.  NESA dosen't prepare you for the field whatsoever.  Skills learned are good, but mentally the folks that come out of there are not ready.  I know what I'm talking about, I had a purely NESA cadet and senior on a 911T mission last year, with a horrific crash and 2 DOA's.  Hawk gives us the skills to make it, like it or not.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

So you're saying that NESA is good, is just doesn't prepare you "mentally"? Guess what, nothing does, until you are actually in a real environment with a real crash, with real bodies. Oh and NESA does train people for CAP mission just fine. I've taught 5 different teams of GTM's, now GTM 3's and one team of GTL's. We do train for CAP ES, we just don't act all cocking and better-than-thou while doing it. You, on the other hand have only proved my point about Hawk grad's.

[whatevah]

dude, NO ES school can prepare you for the sight of a wreck.  To think otherwise is foolhardy.

Only experience can help you, and you don't get much more experience at one school, vs another. You can't really get that much experience in two weeks, especially in a controlled environment.

NESA does prepare you for the "field", as you typically spend at least 2 nights in the field, depending on the weather (lightning storms = not cool).  Hawk prepares you to spend more time away from supplies, but you should never been that far away from civilization, unless you got yourself waaaaay lost and lost your GPS, maps and radio.

[Eclipse]

Let me say this, I've been to both.  I know which one is better.  NESA dosen't prepare you for the field whatsoever.  Skills learned are good, but mentally the folks that come out of there are not ready.  I know what I'm talking about, I had a purely NESA cadet and senior on a 911T mission last year, with a horrific crash and 2 DOA's.  Hawk gives us the skills to make it, like it or not.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

First off, there is no such thing as a "CAP Ranger" - call yourselves whatever you like, but that is a fact.

Second, if PEN-CAP's performance in Mississippi (staffed by a bunch of mostly "rangers"), is any indication of how well Hawk is preparing CAP people for duty, go to NESA.

At least at NESA, no one will encourage you to wear your hat like it got stuck in the dryer.

And Cadet Mailloux, or anyone else from PEN-CAP who is flicking their bic for a flame war, take this to heart.

I was there.

I have the photos and AAR's to back up 100% of what I will say.

My guess is you'll have to call your Wing Commander for permission to respond anyway.

[JaL5597]

Let me say this, I've been to both.  I know which one is better.  NESA dosen't prepare you for the field whatsoever.  Skills learned are good, but mentally the folks that come out of there are not ready.  I know what I'm talking about, I had a purely NESA cadet and senior on a 911T mission last year, with a horrific crash and 2 DOA's.  Hawk gives us the skills to make it, like it or not.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

First off, there is no such thing as a "CAP Ranger" - call yourselves whatever you like, but that is a fact.

Second, if PEN-CAP's performance in Mississippi (staffed by a bunch of mostly "rangers"), is any indication of how well Hawk is preparing CAP people for duty, go to NESA.

At least at NESA, no one will encourage you to wear your hat like it got stuck in the dryer.

And Cadet Mailloux, or anyone else from PEN-CAP who is flicking their bic for a flame war, take this to heart.

I was there.

I have the photos and AAR's to back up 100% of what I will say.

My guess is you'll have to call your Wing Commander for permission to respond anyway.

Captain all we can do is learn from what happened down south.  Instead of telling us you were there all the time, how about sharing some of that information and experiences?

As for the cadet, well people at the appropriate wing hq already know what he has been up to. 

[SarDragon]

I did some investigating on these two clowns cadets from Connecticut and it appears that much of their squadron (at least according to the website) approaches having the same kind of attitude. I saw things like Danielson Strike Team (their ES presence) and required memorization of the 12 General Orders of the Sentry. This thread on their cadet forum is interesting. YMMV.

[JaL5597]

I did some investigating on these two clowns cadets from Connecticut and it appears that much of their squadron (at least according to the website) approaches having the same kind of attitude. I saw things like Danielson Strike Team (their ES presence) and required memorization of the 12 General Orders of the Sentry. This thread on their cadet forum is interesting. YMMV.

I just hope that everyone does not believe that those 2 represent the cadets of Connecticut.

I know I have not made people think I am the best example of being a senior member but I have done that without anything designed to reflect poorly on my wing.

The actions and conduct of these two cadets have been noted and forwarded to the Connecticut Wing Director of Cadet Programs.  I have not heard back from him yet on this matter, and expect to within the next few days.

Once again I do ask that people realize that those two do not accuratly reflect the members of Connecticut Wing.

2d Lt Joshua Leslie
Assistant Director of Cadet Programs
Historian
CTWG HQ
Unassigned Senior Member
103rd Composite Squadron

[Eclipse]

Captain all we can do is learn from what happened down south.  Instead of telling us you were there all the time, how about sharing some of that information and experiences?

As for the cadet, well people at the appropriate wing hq already know what he has been up to. 
[/quote]

You're right, of course.  Its getting old.  I am dying to publish a complete narrative - regardless of anything else its certainly the coolest ES thing I've ever done, but my reticence has been that while there were pockets of success, as an organization we didn't exactly shine.

Our activity down there exposed some of the most serious (and member-known) problems in our organization, and a lot of people, and even whole groups look pretty bad.

To make things worse, a lot of CC's and others in "power" resent the fact that this exposure has (finally) shown them for the hollow uniforms they are, and done so in a way which cannot be swept under the rug.  (I know, big surprise)

So many of us, upon return, not only didn't get a thank you (which would have been nice, but not required) but were actually knocked back for things which were way above our "pay grade", or simply not part of our mission.

Also, since at a minimum many of the stories would involve statements which could be considered insulting at the minimum, libelous without substantiation, and even involve possible accusations of criminal activity, we have to be VERY careful how things are said and framed.

Which is a long way of saying "I wish I could, and will as soon as we have a little more distance".

Sorry to sound so "cloak and dagger".

Believe me there are any number of CAP leaders across this country chomping to tell their war stories.  A good place to start is with the press releases and blogs - there appears to be an inverse relationship between the number of press releases and stories vs. the actual success in the mission.

I'm also of two minds on this - even for those of us who have a perception of success down there,
much of it was because of circumstance and the fact that we went down to listen and follow orders.  Bare minimum competence appears to be the bar in much of the country, and "Do what you are told" (TASK # STFU001) ought to be taught before GES.

Those units that had "issues" had their lives made even more difficult by the fact that command and control across the board, CAP and otherwise, was muddled at best by both circumstance and the logistical nightmare of working in a disaster area.

Whenever I think about writing stuff, I think about my reaction to "Band of Brothers".
Even Herbert Sobel had relatives.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capt._Herbert_Sobel

[JaL5597]

You're right, of course.  Its getting old.  I am dying to publish a complete narrative - regardless of anything else its certainly the coolest ES thing I've ever done, but my reticence has been that while there were pockets of success, as an organization we didn't exactly shine.

Our activity down there exposed some of the most serious (and member-known) problems in our organization, and a lot of people, and even whole groups look pretty bad.

To make things worse, a lot of CC's and others in "power" resent the fact that this exposure has (finally) shown them for the hollow uniforms they are, and done so in a way which cannot be swept under the rug.  (I know, big surprise)

So many of us, upon return, not only didn't get a thank you (which would have been nice, but not required) but were actually knocked back for things which were way above our "pay grade", or simply not part of our mission.

Also, since at a minimum many of the stories would involve statements which could be considered insulting at the minimum, libelous without substantiation, and even involve possible accusations of criminal activity, we have to be VERY careful how things are said and framed.

Which is a long way of saying "I wish I could, and will as soon as we have a little more distance".

Sorry to sound so "cloak and dagger".

Believe me there are any number of CAP leaders across this country chomping to tell their war stories.  A good place to start is with the press releases and blogs - there appears to be an inverse relationship between the number of press releases and stories vs. the actual success in the mission.

I'm also of two minds on this - even for those of us who have a perception of success down there,
much of it was because of circumstance and the fact that we went down to listen and follow orders.  Bare minimum competence appears to be the bar in much of the country, and "Do what you are told" (TASK # STFU001) ought to be taught before GES.

Those units that had "issues" had their lives made even more difficult by the fact that command and control across the board, CAP and otherwise, was muddled at best by both circumstance and the logistical nightmare of working in a disaster area.

Whenever I think about writing stuff, I think about my reaction to "Band of Brothers".
Even Herbert Sobel had relatives.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capt._Herbert_Sobel

While you are right there is also the simple fact that history must be recorded, both the good and bad.  I think its better to have those who were there with the first hand knowlage to be the ones to write the history without the gauze of being politically correct or anything like that.

While I haven't read it yet I did see that you posted a link.   

Thank you Sir.

[Eclipse]

Start here:

I'll start taking questions after you read it.

http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2005/12/katrina_the_aar.html

[Matt]

I did some investigating on these two clowns cadets from Connecticut and it appears that much of their squadron (at least according to the website) approaches having the same kind of attitude. I saw things like Danielson Strike Team (their ES presence) and required memorization of the 12 General Orders of the Sentry. This thread on their cadet forum is interesting. YMMV.

*Cringes*  It's like they think that Cadet GTMs have the equivalency to ES Gods... I know of only a handful of the ES Gurus around here, but they're almost all (SM)  Lt Cols and have been in since they were wee little ones, with the exceptions of few.

If I ever, ever bury my head that far...  I hope someone takes me off my high horse right, quick, and in a hurry.

[Schmidty06]

I checked out the Danielson Cadet Squadron website that was linked above.  I don't know where they got some of their ideas, but its all jacked up in there.

[Pace]

I checked out the Danielson Cadet Squadron website that was linked above.  I don't know where they got some of their ideas, but its all jacked up in there.

Take a closer look.  From what I saw, it was only the cadets.  Unless I missed something, the senior members are pretty squared away.  Funny, it's usually the other way around.

[CAPRANGER]

Folks, let me enlighten you....

Don't judge a book by it's cover.......because you have NOOO idea.

That is all...

[CAPRANGER]

Again, I'll enlighten you.....You don't have a clue how our Cadets are, NEVERTHELESS, you CAN'T judge our SM's.  We have the BEST SM's, and we're proud of it.  And let me say this, we're trained by the best, our SM's.  On a side note, our Squadron Commander is my father...just stop, you may think that I or we are messed up, but until you actually observe our operation in person, you shouldn't have a comment, and we're terribly sorry if y'all got the wrong impression.  We are proud of our accomplishments, and where we have gotten in the past five years.  We thank you for your comments, and cordially invite you to an Open House so you can really see the operation.  Thank you.

[JaL5597]

Again, I'll enlighten you.....You don't have a clue how our Cadets are, NEVERTHELESS, you CAN'T judge our SM's.  We have the BEST SM's, and we're proud of it.  And let me say this, we're trained by the best, our SM's.  On a side note, our Squadron Commander is my father...just stop, you may think that I or we are messed up, but until you actually observe our operation in person, you shouldn't have a comment, and we're terribly sorry if y'all got the wrong impression.  We are proud of our accomplishments, and where we have gotten in the past five years.  We thank you for your comments, and cordially invite you to an Open House so you can really see the operation.  Thank you.

Bill just stop.  Your making the hole deeper at this point.

Remember your actions on here reflect your squadron and our wing.  And based on what people have been telling me that impression is not a positive one.  Its time to stop arguing with people and time to start listening and thinking about how this mess can be fixed.

I am really tired of having to apologize for this whole thing. 

[Pace]

Folks, let me enlighten you....

Don't judge a book by it's cover.......because you have NOOO idea.

That is all...

OK, how about by attention to detail:

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP

It's abbreviated C/2d Lt (<- period left off to avoid confusion)
I know in another thread I (and I believe someone else) pointed this out already.

Or how about leadership by example from a cadet officer with regards to respect here (the linked page and the following page).

The high and mighty approach is what started the flame war last time.  Cut the ego please.  Your "know-it-all" attitude, superiority complex, and pride do you no good.  There are standards (uniform wear, customs/courtesies, etc.) and the only things we on this board have seen from you show us that you don't meet them.  We're not against you, just your attitude and behavior.  Cool off and follow the rules (and look the rules up in the regs first instead of taking someone's word on it), and life will flow much smoother.

[Pace]

Again, I'll enlighten you.....You don't have a clue how our Cadets are, NEVERTHELESS, you CAN'T judge our SM's.  We have the BEST SM's, and we're proud of it.  And let me say this, we're trained by the best, our SM's.  On a side note, our Squadron Commander is my father...just stop, you may think that I or we are messed up, but until you actually observe our operation in person, you shouldn't have a comment, and we're terribly sorry if y'all got the wrong impression.  We are proud of our accomplishments, and where we have gotten in the past five years.  We thank you for your comments, and cordially invite you to an Open House so you can really see the operation.  Thank you.

Let me say it again, we are not against you or your squadron, just your attitude and behavior.  Take a deep breath and try to take something positive out of all of this (for example: the advice to work on your courtesy to officers).  Also, I think you misunderstood my post.  I was complementing the senior members of your squadron, not insulting or criticizing them.

[CAPRANGER]

Josh, there is nothing to be fixed, or to try to get out of a hole.  This is not a formal CAP proceeding whatsoever.  If trouble DOES arise, we'll deal with it accordingly on a local level, if need be Wing.

[JaL5597]

Josh, there is nothing to be fixed, or to try to get out of a hole.  This is not a formal CAP proceeding whatsoever.  If trouble DOES arise, we'll deal with it accordingly on a local level, if need be Wing.

Try Lieutenant and Sir next time. 

[Pace]

Josh, there is nothing to be fixed, or to try to get out of a hole.  This is not a formal CAP proceeding whatsoever.  If trouble DOES arise, we'll deal with it accordingly on a local level, if need be Wing.

This may not be an official CAP proceding, but Lt Leslie IS your superior officer and IS your Assistant Wing Director of Cadet Programs.  He deserves more respect than you seem to be willing to show.  This lack of respect is EXACTLY what causes you problems.  Lack of respect speaks directly to your attitude, character, and credibility as a cadet (and moreso, as a cadet officer).

BTW, with the comments you've made to me and numerous other senior members, I would be well within my rights (as would they) to take this to your squadron commander (and then wing commander if that didn't do any good since your squadron commander is your father).  I don't plan on doing it because I'm more mature than that.  I would hope you would be mature enough to take a hint, realize when you're wrong, and learn from your attitude and mistakes.  BTW, the hints are from every poster on this board that has commented to you, your Wing Assistant DCP, and even your C/CC (in the "Cadets in SAR" thread he even said he would ask you to tone it down).  Please stop fighting a battle that has already been lost.

[Cmdbuddy]

Josh, there is nothing to be fixed, or to try to get out of a hole.  This is not a formal CAP proceeding whatsoever.  If trouble DOES arise, we'll deal with it accordingly on a local level, if need be Wing.

Here's where you're wrong.  By putting your grade in CAP along with your squadron, you are making the connection for us.  Therefore, you should be a good representative of your squadron, group, wing, and Civil Air Patrol as a whole (since I'm sure some non-members do occasionally read this board.)

If your squadron is as great as you claim it is, then show us by proper attitudes.  You can be proud of your accomplishments without acting the way you have been acting.

Finally, a note to everybody that has taken this off course (sorry Mike for modding in your section!): Get back on track.  Take the personal stuff to PM.  And maybe stop trying to feed the troll, if that's at all possible.

[Matt]

Here's where you're wrong.  By putting your grade in CAP along with your squadron, you are making the connection for us.  Therefore, you should be a good representative of your squadron, group, wing, and Civil Air Patrol as a whole (since I'm sure some non-members do occasionally read this board.)

If your squadron is as great as you claim it is, then show us by proper attitudes.  You can be proud of your accomplishments without acting the way you have been acting.

*Applauds* 

[Nathan]

Wow.

You know, you guys always yelled at ME for getting into fights with Hawk grads... and now look...

Peh. Hypocrites.

[Pace]

What happens at CS stays at CS. 

[ThorntonOL]

How far is Hawk Mountain from Eagle State Park?

[FW]

Bald Eagle State Park is about 150 driving miles west Hawk Mt.

[ThorntonOL]

Thanks, I was wondering as I have visited Bald Eagle but not for CAP training, I was there for 4-H Forestry training.

[floridacyclist]

Did you take the training from rangers? See? Maybe you are more on topic than I would have thought reading this thread!

Seriously, my kids and I have made it to Wisconsin from NYC on our cross-country bike ride and are currently attending NBB. Details in our blog, photos to come when the PAO says I can.

Let's see, if I really cared about the blingage, I could wear my blue beret on my head, my ranger tab over my pocket.....and a choice of patches on my shirt pocket:Comm, Inland SAR Planning Course, SARTECH.

Then again at this stage, it would probably be more fun to simply wear the bare minimum of patches as required by the regs and let folks wonder.

[mikeylikey]

Seriously, my kids and I have made it to Wisconsin from NYC on our cross-country bike ride and are currently attending NBB. Details in our blog, photos to come when the PAO says I can.

Your not exhausted??

Way to go Gene!   :clap:

[♠SARKID♠]

Seriously, my kids and I have made it to Wisconsin from NYC on our cross-country bike ride and are currently attending NBB. Details in our blog, photos to come when the PAO says I can.

I'll be a short shot south working Fon Du Lac.  If I can squeeze some time in to get up to Oshkosh, maybe I'll see you!

[John Bryan]

Note...before I start I have never been to NBB, Hawk or NESA....I have worked with members who have been to all 3.

Does NBB, Hawk, and NESA offer good training and sometimes get members their 101 ratings in things like GTM and such. YES, and they should.

Is going to NBB, Hawk and or NESA good - YES

Is one better than the other - no way to ever answer that question, there is no right or wrong answer - like asking which is better football or baseball.....depends.

Does going to NBB, Hawk or NESA  make you better then those only trained by their wings/units - Not based on what I have seen. Some of their grads are great and others suck....some members trained locally are great and some suck.

Does NBB, Hawk or NESA make you a "Super ES god".....no......no one or two week summer camp will ever replace real world experience. Even professionals in ES go beyond "school" before they are considered experts. For example a cop just out of the police academy still has an FTO period and years of learning before they are experts. Anyone who thinks they are ready for anything after a week long summer camp in PA , WI or IN needs more training.

Are there a lot of Hawk haters on this group.....HECK YES...which is sad, because it is a great school.....I have sent many a shy young cadet to Hawk to have them come back more confident and a stronger young person than when they left. They come back better leaders....if anything what I have seen of most Hawk grads is they come back not only having learned ES but leadership and team work.

[mikeylikey]

Are there a lot of Hawk haters on this group.....HECK YES...which is sad, because it is a great school.....I have sent many a shy young cadet to Hawk to have them come back more confident and a stronger young person than when they left. They come back better leaders....if anything what I have seen of most Hawk grads is they come back not only having learned ES but leadership and team work.

Until you actually attend Hawk.....which some HAWK haters here have, you can only bounce opinion.  To say 10 days changes Cadets into awesome and better leaders, well thats not the point or purpose of Hawk, no leadership curriculum is presented, it is one big camping and hiking trip. Spacing - MIKE  

[MIKE]

Zombie thread.... Argh RANGERs!