Hawk Mountain Ranger

[FL169ESO]

Does anyone who has attended Hawk Mountain have an SQTR or 101 card as a result of the training they received there?

[whatevah]

no, but I can tell you about a few hundred members who got their CAPF 101 cards with various GTM levels from NESA this year. 

I'm sure they give out SQTR sheets, but issuing 101s at Hawk would only be possible to PAWG members, as it requires approval, and the PAWG people don't have approval for members outside their wing (AFAIK).

[Matt]

FL, I thinks I know where you were goin' with this...

As I was corrected of in the other thread, your squadron/CC can issue the SQTR provided you meet the Prereq's.

Like whatevah said, you Hawk can't give the approval for the qualification, however, I'm not real familiar with their training, I've heard some of it, but not a great deal of it.  If they have the ability and do sign-off on tasks you can get a good majority covered by them, but you'll still have to bring the SQTR back to your wing/CC or designee for the final approval.

Also, I would have to concur with whatevah.... NESA would probably be your better bet for acquiring ratings.  And, they have a decent course outline and time period in which they conduct it (week long to work on one rating [first year] is a nice shot to work on something).

[FL169ESO]

Good news folks!  Hawk Mountain does issue an SQTR upon completion of their course, signed by the course director, including two missions!  The only problem is finding people who kept their graduation packet...   

[Pylon]

...signed by the course director...

I don't know how well that should fly... 

thoughts on that?

[Matt]

depends if the director can count as the commander's designee.

[Pylon]

depends if the director can count as the commander's designee.

...but wouldn't that mean for it to count that the squadron commander of each member's unit would have to agree that the Director was a designee for signing off the SQTR? 

In this case, the commander has to pretty much give his or her "okay" anyways -- whether the okay goes to the director or the SQTR directly.  Why not skip the heartburn and get the SQ/CC to sign it in the first place?

[Matt]

Why not skip the heartburn and get the SQ/CC to sign it in the first place?

Yes, true, no, and that would be the LOGICAL way of thinking.

Yes, every unit commander would have to allow the director to be a designee

True, the unit commander gives his/her "OK" for you to be there.

No, the application does NOT include a responsibility transfer, they aren't the desginee unless your unit commander says so.

That would be the LOGICAL way of thinking, to have the squadron commander sign the SQTR, but you'd have to meet the pre-req's.  In theory, anyways.

[Mac]

If Hawk does the same thing we do at NBB, it worked like this:

1. National HQ gives some national updated in MIMS.
2. That person loads all the training done at the activity into MIMS with the applicable trainers CAPID, and date completed.
3. Once all data is entered, to include sorties, the request is sent through MIMS to the approving official (SQ CC and then Wing).
4. If someone didn't complete all the training on a specific SQTR thats OK, because it was still loaded into MIMS with what they DIDdo.

We at NBB then sent a letter home with each cadet stating how many sorties in each specialty were completed, as well as any find they were credited with, and what training was not provided at NBB for each of the 3 specailties taught (UDF, MRO, & FLM). The letter was then signed by the ES Director (myself) and the Activity Director.

In 2004 NBB was given a different access to MIMS, and all we could do was force an ES rating on someone but couldn't load all the tasks that were completed, and it was a real nightmare with people not getting credit for training that was conducted. I think the way we did it in 2005 was much better and it still allowed for the members commander to approve the rating.

[Matt]

I know that with MMU and the new IMU I believe (haven't toyed with it because I don't have a staff rating aside from MSA) can force ("slam") someone into a rating.  The issuing staff member places their CAPID in stating that the member is qualified to preform the specific job.

However, you can't update tasks within the MMU, but rather you have to do that within the WMU, which from what I've seen is about 30x easier than MIMS and it IS fed to the same server upon the servers syncing up.

[FL169ESO]

I should probably clarify my previous post on this...the individual tasks, and two missions are signed off by the course director (on a paper SQTR).  This leaves the unit CC the final sign-off, as well as the unit/individual member to submit the Form 100 to their home wing for issue of 101 card.

[Mac]

However, you can't update tasks within the MMU, but rather you have to do that within the WMU, which from what I've seen is about 30x easier than MIMS and it IS fed to the same server upon the servers syncing up.

I have toyed with IMU, and WMU, and they work great if your whole wing uses them, if not they can be a royal pain. I can updated all of my own tasks for a specific rating in MIMS in about 30 sec. But because nobody in our wing is listed in WMU as an SET, no tasks can be signed off in WMU.

I should probably clarify my previous post on this...the individual tasks, and two missions are signed off by the course director (on a paper SQTR).  This leaves the unit CC the final sign-off, as well as the unit/individual member to submit the Form 100 to their home wing for issue of 101 card.

So you are saying that the Activity Director signs off Every task for each individual who attends Hawk Mountain on a separate SQTR. that man must have one very tired hand at the end of the activity. I still find it hard to believe that there are still wings out there doing CAPF 100 and then issuing CAPF 101's the old fashion way. Both MIMS, and WMU made actually filling out the 100 a thing of the past.

[FL169ESO]

So you are saying that the Activity Director signs off Every task for each individual who attends Hawk Mountain on a separate SQTR. that man must have one very tired hand at the end of the activity. I still find it hard to believe that there are still wings out there doing CAPF 100 and then issuing CAPF 101's the old fashion way. Both MIMS, and WMU made actually filling out the 100 a thing of the past.

That's correct.  I have 3 cadets who attended Hawk, and each of them has a GTM3 SQTR filled out and signed by the director. 

What is WMU?  I'm familiar with MIMS, although at the squadron level I don't have access to it.  I've never heard of WMU until this thread.

[SarDragon]

WMU is the Wing Management Utility, a precursor to the current MIMS ES documentation. It was developed by a member of Oregon Wing, and was not used by every wing. We use(d) it here in CAWG, and it still does some things better than MIMS.

[Matt]

that and WMU's counterpart MMU (Mission Management Utilities) is quite nice for ICS based missions.

However, the new IMU (Incident Management Utilites) is MUCH better.  Although the interface looks nothing alike, it allows realtime (within 2 minutes) status boards.  Networked coordination, signins, tasking, communications and realistically everything except the morning coffee is offered.

If anything it is simply fun to experiment with.  The MMU allows for networked coordination, whereas IMU offers single client, network client, and above all WMU-clientside networking.

Two-thumbs up to Maj. A for it.

[CAPRANGER]

Good afternoon.  I know exactly what you mean.

I'm probably one of the only other RANGER's that are around this post, so let me answer you correctly.  I went to HMTN in '03.  You do your 9 days there, complete your RANGER Test, knives, survival, PT, knots, etc.  You graduate, clean up for 4 hours, then go home.  Obviously, sounds like you have your paperwork.  I got a 2-3 page document with all the tasks I ahd completed, including mission numbers and the School Commanders signature.  All you do is get an SQTR, have your Squadron Commander, in your state, put the School Comamnders CAPID inside the box, or online, put the mission #'s in, sign, sumbit, etc.  Not that hard.  It's just these folks that think that NESA is so awesome, and they are always right, more often than not, they are wrong.  I'm telling you the Hawk way.  Any questions e-mail me at CAPSearchandRescue@gmail.com.  Once a RANGER, always a RANGER!

"That Others May Live"

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

[whatevah]

It's just these folks that think that NESA is so awesome, and they are always right, more often than not, they are wrong.  I'm telling you the Hawk way.

pray tell, what exactly are NESA grads wrong about?  In my experience, NESA-trained members are a bit better at the skills most commonly used for CAP missions.  Hawk places more emphasis on skills that are needed in 1 out of 100 ACTUAL missions (and I'm not talking about ramp checks).  The survival skills are fun to learn and practice, but useless on most missions.

Both schools are cool, but one focuses entirely on skills required for missions, and one focuses on more survival-based skills.

[CAPRANGER]

Let me say this, I've been to both.  I know which one is better.  NESA dosen't prepare you for the field whatsoever.  Skills learned are good, but mentally the folks that come out of there are not ready.  I know what I'm talking about, I had a purely NESA cadet and senior on a 911T mission last year, with a horrific crash and 2 DOA's.  Hawk gives us the skills to make it, like it or not.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

[Horn229]

Let me say this, I've been to both.  I know which one is better.  NESA dosen't prepare you for the field whatsoever.  Skills learned are good, but mentally the folks that come out of there are not ready.  I know what I'm talking about, I had a purely NESA cadet and senior on a 911T mission last year, with a horrific crash and 2 DOA's.  Hawk gives us the skills to make it, like it or not.

C/2LT B. Mailloux, CAP
RANGER 2nd Class

So you're saying that NESA is good, is just doesn't prepare you "mentally"? Guess what, nothing does, until you are actually in a real environment with a real crash, with real bodies. Oh and NESA does train people for CAP mission just fine. I've taught 5 different teams of GTM's, now GTM 3's and one team of GTL's. We do train for CAP ES, we just don't act all cocking and better-than-thou while doing it. You, on the other hand have only proved my point about Hawk grad's.

[whatevah]

dude, NO ES school can prepare you for the sight of a wreck.  To think otherwise is foolhardy.

Only experience can help you, and you don't get much more experience at one school, vs another. You can't really get that much experience in two weeks, especially in a controlled environment.

NESA does prepare you for the "field", as you typically spend at least 2 nights in the field, depending on the weather (lightning storms = not cool).  Hawk prepares you to spend more time away from supplies, but you should never been that far away from civilization, unless you got yourself waaaaay lost and lost your GPS, maps and radio.