Excellence/Discrepancy Report

[mprokosch11]

A cadet who just came back from AF Basic Training has suggested that we use the AF Excellence/Discrepancy Report, Form 341.

We will distribute two to every cadet and when they do something not up to standards multiple times we will tell them to give us the form and we (staff) will fill it out. This also goes if the cadet is caught doing something good.

When the form is collected from the cadet, it will be placed in a folder with their name on it.  It will be reviewed when the cadet will be promoted or suggested for an award for the awards banquet.

So basically what I'm saying is we are hoping it will increase discipline.

Any thoughts/comments?

[ZigZag911]

This is the most sensible use of the form that I've ever heard....I really like the idea of it serving as a 'tracking device' for a cadet's performance. Hopefully review board members will see it as a teaching tool, a place to start a discussion about how the cadet has grown, and helped the unit -- or not!

[jimmydeanno]

It's a Form 341.

My thoughts on them is that they create a lot of needless paperwork for the added value that they present.  The squadron training environment is small enough so that your flight staff should know when things aren't going so well or when they are.  Then they just transcribe those training needs/deficiencies onto the CAPF 50.

I think that your time could be better spent correcting the deficiency than filling out the form.  

Another thing that tends to happen when people use them is that the ones filled out as merits are too frequently overlooked so at the end the cadet is left with a folder full of marks against them.

I personally wouldn't use them because the environment at the squadron is personal enough that you can keep tabs on things like that easily.

[mprokosch11]

It's a Form 341.

My thoughts on them is that they create a lot of needless paperwork for the added value that they present.  The squadron training environment is small enough so that your flight staff should know when things aren't going so well or when they are.  Then they just transcribe those training needs/deficiencies onto the CAPF 50.

I think that your time could be better spent correcting the deficiency than filling out the form.  

Another thing that tends to happen when people use them is that the ones filled out as merits are too frequently overlooked so at the end the cadet is left with a folder full of marks against them.

I personally wouldn't use them because the environment at the squadron is personal enough that you can keep tabs on things like that easily.

That was one of the discussions we had, but now the cadets know that if they do something wrong, it will be recorded and not put in a memory bank.

[notaNCO forever]

It helps to use these forms ,so if a cadet transfers there actions will be on record for the next squadron. It also helps the cadet feel good if he has a commendation in paper.

[M.Glisson003]

I think this is a wonderful idea. It means so much more when you have this stuff on paper as opposed to just telling them what they are doing wrong or right.

[dwb]

I think it's a terrible idea.

It's a merit/demerit system, and I've got all kinds of reasons why I don't like those.

[dwb]

I'd like to expound for a moment on why I think 341s or other merit/demerit systems are generally a bad idea.

If you look at the documentation and guidance on how to run a cadet program (CAPR 52-16, CAPP 52-15, cadet leadership books, cap.gov/cadets, etc.), it's pretty clear that the training cadets receive should be progressive in nature.

After they've been taught something, and demonstrate competency in it, the focus should move to learning other things.

In the merit/demerit environments I've seen, cadets have generally gotten dinged for things like uniforms, drill, being late to a meeting, failing to render a salute, etc.

Simple, basic, Phase I stuff that should have been covered in their first few months of being CAP members.

All too often, what ends up happening is that these topics are constantly reitereated, even to the people who already demonstrate competency in them.  That focus comes at the expense of teaching the "harder" stuff; small-team leadership, core values, hands-on projects, etc.

Cadet leaders fall in to this trap where they dwell on these very basic things that should already be in practice, because they're comfortable there, when in fact they should have moved on to teaching other things.

Cadets will remember to salute if they get a quick, verbal reminder every time they forget.  They will wear their uniform properly if everyone else does, and if they're bringing down their flight's inspection scores (peer pressure is a lot stronger of a force than you may think).

After cadets receive their first couple months of orientation, cadet leaders should not be wasting precious meeting time rehashing old subjects.

So...

The onus is on the cadet and senior member leadership of a squadron to make sure this happens.  I guarantee you will not have uniform problems if you:

1. set the expectation and teach it right the first time,

2. make it clear that the basic stuff (uniforms, salutes, etc.) are required for participation, and

3. make the program interesting and worthwhile.

It's a lot harder than it sounds, but no one ever promised it would be easy.

[mikeylikey]

^ Right on!  Best summary I have read in a long time.  Thanks

[Nick]

We used a 341 system in AFJROTC and AFROTC.  It worked great.  But, the reason it worked was because your conduct had a direct reflection on your grade.  A grade in high school/college.  That affects GPA.  For graduating.

We used a 341 in AF Basic Training.  It worked great.  The reason it worked was because if you screwed up in front of a TI other than your own -- they had no idea who you were, but a piece of paper with your squadron/flight information has an amazing way of getting back to your TI, which had an immediate and direct impact on you when you got back to the dorm.

We used a 341 in AF Tech School.  It worked okay.  You could screw up as you roamed anywhere on base, and the 341 would get back to your MTL, but discipline started gently sloping down once you left Basic Training, so there wasn't as much consequence for getting them pulled, unless it was for a serious reason.

But in all these above, you were more or less committed to an organization with more than an "at-will" participation.  Poor performance in ROTC = bad grades.  Poor performance in the Air Force = well, I won't go there.

And finally, we tried 341s at the last CAP cadet squadron where I maneuvered the cadet program.  It failed miserably.  The burden of paperwork did not justify the benefit of the program.  There is a very limited application for documenting discrepancies other than for promotion or consideration for positions, and if a cadet has enough recurring discrepancies that their consideration for promotion or assignments are impacted, then their immediate supervisor needs to be documenting them on CAPF 50s.

Conversely, if a cadet is so smoking high speed that they would be getting 341s for excellence weekly, then when they come up for promotions or consideration for positions, everyone should know this cadet by name and face ... they shouldn't need to refer to pieces of paper to remind them of how great this cadet is.  Otherwise, if the cadet got one or two 341s for excellence in a period of two months, then they were meeting expectations.

Yes, a CAPF 50 takes longer to write out than an AF IMT 341.  Yes, the AF IMT 341 is a heckuvalot more convenient for the staffer to document a unique occurrence.  But I believe if it's worth documenting, document it on a pre-existing CAP form (the 50).  Does the 341 serve a purpose at activities like encampments?  Sure.  At the squadron?  Not as far as I can tell.

[arajca]

The major problem I have seen with merit/demerit or excellence/discrepency programs is that they quickly devolve into demerit or discrepency programs. Everyone jumps on each little mistake, while ignoring the exceptional greatness.

[Pylon]

Nick and Dan's posts +1

[mynetdude]

Isn't the whole idea of the cadet program supposed to be on positive reinforcement? Yes cadets make mistakes, they need to be allowed to do it, they are children.  Adults make mistakes too, but adults have a much larger margin to deal with including responsibilities that cadets don't have.

One of the DCCs we had at our squadron had put up a quote on the wall, I don't remember what it says but it basically talks about only looking forward at/to the positive and using positive reinforcements to boost morale not looking at the negetive.

There are ways to tell a cadet how to correct their negetive actions by being positively giving constructive criticism (cadets need to learn to accept these as well).

I'm not directly involved with cadets, I do help with cadets from time to time, once in awhile I'll see a cadet doing something wrong or wearing something wrong etc (most of the infractions are so minor) I only suggest to the cadet that he/she wear something different and to check the regs I don't say any more than that because it isn't my place thats the job of the cadet staff and the DCC.

So I'm not sure exactly how demerits would benefit but only hurt the cadet programs, I can think of several cadets in my squadron having several demerits and have already left the program in no time (luckily we have no demerits).

[ColonelJack]

I agree 100% that the Cadet Program needs to be progressive in nature and built on positive reinforcement.

But when the same mistakes are being made again and again ... and they're not being promptly addressed because it's something "they're supposed to have mastered" ... then something's amiss.  Not just with the cadet who's still screwing up the basic Phase I stuff, but also with the leadership that's allowing not-quite-squared-away cadets to progress.

Do Forms 341 help?  Heck if I know; when I commanded a cadet squadron in the late 80s - early 90s, we were small enough not to worry about them.  And I made darned sure nobody got promoted until they were ready.  I remember having a few of my 341s pulled back in BMT, and when my TIs got the information I was not a happy camper for a while. 

Turning cadets loose without making sure they're ready -- including having all that Phase I stuff down pat -- is a recipe for disaster anyway.

Jack

[afgeo4]

Your unit's counseling program should already address demerits and consistent problems with cadets and senior members. If the problem is large enough for a letter of reprimand, such a letter should be written and used at promotion time. Aside from that, promote people you yourself know to be worthy of the promotion. Don't look to paperwork to tell you if such person has leadership ability or you'll be disappointed in the results.