Holes in the GT training program

[RiverAux]

Okay, so a few years ago we changed 60-3 to allow a qualified ground team member of any level to train and become a Ground Team Leader.  When that happened it looks to me that they left some holes in the program that could result in having GTLs not having done some of the tasks that the GTMs they're supervising have to do.

Imagine that a guy goes from GTM3 direct to a GTL, here are some of the tasks  that they would not have done since he skipped GTM2 and GTM1 and because they aren't on the GTL SQTR:

0-0401 Work with canine team (would have done as GTM1)
0-0703 Employ air-ground signals (would have done as GTM1)
0-0202 Measure distance with a pace count (would have done as GTM2)
0-0203 Navigate past an obstacle (would have done as GTM2)

Am I missing something or is this a real mistake?

[Pace]

The only one that bothers me is the air to ground signals.  A pace count (+past an obstacle) is pretty close to common sense, plus any GTM2s on the team will be trained to do it.  Also remember that a ground team is only able to act in the capacity of its lowest rated member so a GTL/GTM3 restricts the entire GT to GTM3 duties (whatever that's supposed to mean...).

The canine task is fluff.  Every time I've come into contact with a canine team the handler gave us an on-site briefing of what to do and not to do (which was the same stuff in the task - which can be read, understood, and applied independently with a little motivation).

YMMV.

[RiverAux]

I agree, not major problems, but still there. 

[Eclipse]

The entire team drops to the level of the GTL in terms of deployable capability.

If you have a GTL-3, then the whole team can only perform duties which are on the GTL3 SQTR.

[RiverAux]

You meant GTM, right?  There are no GTL levels. 

[Pace]

He meant a GTL with only a GTM3 rating.

[RiverAux]

Once you have that GTL you can drop all your GTM ratings and not worry about them.  It is the least trained GTM that matters. 

On a side note -- I think it is silly to have mixed equipment up with GTM training levels.  The training levels have nothing at all to do with how long they can stay in the field -- its not like a GTM 1 has learned something that matters in that aspect that a GTM3 hasn't.   

[Pace]

Once you have that GTL you can drop all your GTM ratings and not worry about them.  It is the least trained GTM that matters. 

Yep, 60-1 backs you up; although having a GTL with only a GTM3 in the field for extensive operations seems like a potential problem (lack of experience comes to mind).

On a side note -- I think it is silly to have mixed equipment up with GTM training levels.  The training levels have nothing at all to do with how long they can stay in the field -- its not like a GTM 1 has learned something that matters in that aspect that a GTM3 hasn't.   

I haven't seen anything that separates equipment requirements; however, GTM levels are directly related to the time a GT is permitted to operate in the field (ref: CAPR 60-3, pgs. 14-15).

[RiverAux]

I was referring back to the requirements in task 0-0002 which only require certain equipment for GTM1 & 2, but not GTM3. 

[sardak]

Am I missing something or is this a real mistake?

Yes, you're missing something. 
O-0701 Recognize and React to Air-Ground Signals is a GMT1 only task.

Attached is a matrix showing GT/UDF tasks vs rating which I've posted before but this is a good time to post it again.

Is this a real mistake? No and yes.

No, it's not a mistake, in that the 60-3 and the SQTRs are consistent in stating that a GTL trainee can be any level of GTM.

Yes, it is a mistake that someone can have a GTL rating yet have considerably different qualifications than another GTL.  Now, is this deliberate or an oversight?

But, so what, the regs don't require a ground team to have a GTL.

Mike

[RiverAux]

I think it is pretty obvious that they intended for a GTL to have accomplished all the GTM tasks but they just missed a few when they made up the GTL SQTR.  In other words, they thought it was fine for someone to go from GTM3 direct to GTL, but only if they accomplished all the GTM2&3 tasks to do it without having to do the GTM2&3 missions. 

[BlackKnight]

Imagine that a guy goes from GTM3 direct to a GTL, here are some of the tasks  that they would not have done since he skipped GTM2 and GTM1 and because they aren't on the GTL SQTR:

[snip]
0-0703 Employ air-ground signals (would have done as GTM1)

I'm not sure this is as big a handicap in the field as it would otherwise seem. Every time I've employed air-ground signals on a SAREX, the air crews reported a "target" and failed to recognize that there was a message.  And no, it wasn't because the signal wasn't laid out properly.   

It takes two to communicate, and it helps if they speak the same language. 

[Pace]

But, so what, the regs don't require a ground team to have a GTL.

Maybe it's not directly stated, but it's certainly implied.  The very existence of the GTL rating is the first identifier.  The statement under the UDF rating is another:

Note: There is not a separate qualification for members and leaders on Urban Direction Finding Teams, but one member will be placed in charge, and operations must still meet the requirements for cadet protection and vehicle usage.

The CAPF 109 requires the signature of the ground team leader, which (as stated above) can be anyone on a UDF team with the UDF rating, but for a GT it has to be someone with a GTL rating or GTL SQTR (which means there must be a qualified GTL to train the trainee).
Plus there's the Air Force evaluation pamphlet which requires the GTL to be qualified and current as a GTL.

I'm hoping you were joking, but come on...

[Eclipse]

It was discussed extensively when the 60's were changed that the intention of this >was< to allow a less-experienced team of GT3's to be field operational with certain limitations.

The initial argument was that it takes too long to grow a GTL the old way, and there were plenty of adults who were mid-way into the old GTM program who could be GTL's right away, while in general we never seemed to have enough old-school GTL's.

Like alot of CAP ideas, however, the execution proved much more difficult, because the reality is that to be an effective GTL you really need to be a GTM1 and then some.

I have no issue with the 3-tiered model of GTM's if it gets more people capable of doing effective work, but I still think GTL should be held to require GTM1.  In fact, I'd argue that it takes at least 6 missions to know enough to lead a team.

As it is today, you have new GTLs who took the same 4 missions (as before) to get rated, but actually have less field experience and taskings then before, and since most GT work is day-player type work, I think the ultimate result was more bodies but less proficiency.

What I have also heard from some members is that since you get the badge for "3", and the star for "L", and in 80-90% of the cases missions only need that, there is little incentive to bother with GT2 & 1, which means we may be growing a generation of GBD's with too little field experience.

[RiverAux]

A GTL has to do everything (except those few mistakes I pointed out) a GTM1 has to do and the only real difference is 2 missions that a GTL that went right to GTL from GTM3 skipped along the way.  Not really all that much to worry about in my book when you can get credit for a GT mission by driving out to an empty airport and heading back to base. 

[lordmonar]

The entire team drops to the level of the GTL in terms of deployable capability.

If you have a GTL-3, then the whole team can only perform duties which are on the GTL3 SQTR.

I disagree.....but there you go.

I do agree that there are holes in the training...I think they are just oversights when they changed the program.

I would change the whole system myself.

I would make it a 4 teir system.

GT-Trainee----complete all the "reading task", use a compass and a map, assemble and use personal Ground team gear.  Must be completed before you can show up at a mission base.

GTM--Complete all the tasks for GTM1 and two missions.

GTL--must GTM complete all the leadership tasks.

GBD--must be a current qualifed GTL and finish the leadership tasks.

[Pace]

That's very close to the old system that took forever to get GTM qualified, much less GTL qualified, because of all the tasks.  FWIW I prefer the old system, but I don't write'em.  I just use'em.

[_]

In MD wing, to become GTL you have to be GTM2 before becoming a GTL-T.  This makes sure you cover all of the navigational tasks, have at least 7 missions before you become a GTL, and means that all GTL's are capable of staying in the field for extended periods as would a GTM2.  We also have a check ride system where you have to be evaluated by a GOBD on a mission before you can be approved for GTL.  The checkride needs to have an ELT scenario, a crash site surveillance scenario, a ground search, and all the other assorted admin and organizational stuff.  If you can't do all of them you have to do it again another time.  The evaluator also can't be someone who had a major part in your training.  All of this allows for an objective evaluation of someone's skills and readiness.  It's not easy to get GTL and if you are one, you have a good idea of what you're doing.  It was a pain in the butt for me to get GTL between starting from scratch, again, with GTM3 and these procedures, but I like the system.

[Eclipse]

^ Not only do I like the above, I am doubly impressed that MDWG actually has a properly approved and posted supplement to 60-3!   

[RiverAux]

^ Not only do I like the above, I am doubly impressed that MDWG actually has a properly approved and posted supplement to 60-3!   

I hope you're being sarcastic since Maryland does not have an approved supplement to 60-3 and if true the additional requirements they are imposing are "illegal". 

[Eclipse]

^ Not only do I like the above, I am doubly impressed that MDWG actually has a properly approved and posted supplement to 60-3!   

I hope you're being sarcastic since Maryland does not have an approved supplement to 60-3 and if true the additional requirements they are imposing are "illegal". 

Yes, they do:  http://cap.gov/documents/MD603Supp18Sep06.pdf

Here are the rest of them:  http://cap.gov/visitors/members/operations/supplements/index/

[RiverAux]

We appear to have dueling web pages on the NHQ site (what a surprise):
http://level2.cap.gov/visitors/programs/operations/emergency_services/index.cfm?nodeID=5326

[_]

We appear to have dueling web pages on the NHQ site (what a surprise):
http://level2.cap.gov/visitors/programs/operations/emergency_services/index.cfm?nodeID=5326

How did you get to this page?  The other one can be gotten to through a link in the ops page.  I did a text search and got both but can't get to the one above other than that.

[RiverAux]

Start here: http://level2.cap.gov/visitors/programs/operations/emergency_services/ and chose supplements and then Approved Supplements to CAP ES regulations.

[Eclipse]

^   

[_]

I think the emergency services pages on there are not used anymore.  Looking at the site map and just looking around I can't get to the emergency services page other than typing in the URL.  I think they decided not to use "emergency services" as a term anymore and switched to "operations".  The problem is that instead of getting rid of the old pages they just didn't link to them and figured no one would find them. 

[RiverAux]

The "sitemap" is about as good as a map of North America from about 1608.  CAP has long had the absolute worst web site "design" that it is possible to come up with.  I think they possibly consulted with the CIA on the best way to hide information.  Heck, I've managed to find two entirely different pages about the patron program. 

[sardak]

But, so what, the regs don't require a ground team to have a GTL.

Maybe it's not directly stated, but it's certainly implied.  The very existence of the GTL rating is the first identifier.  The statement under the UDF rating is another:

Note: There is not a separate qualification for members and leaders on Urban Direction Finding Teams, but one member will be placed in charge, and operations must still meet the requirements for cadet protection and vehicle usage.

The CAPF 109 requires the signature of the ground team leader, which (as stated above) can be anyone on a UDF team with the UDF rating, but for a GT it has to be someone with a GTL rating or GTL SQTR (which means there must be a qualified GTL to train the trainee).
Plus there's the Air Force evaluation pamphlet which requires the GTL to be qualified and current as a GTL.
I'm hoping you were joking, but come on...

None of what you quoted or say are requirements for there to be a GTL on a ground team.  Even the 109 just reads "Signature of Team Leader" (and has for many years).

Prior to CAPR 60-3 (2001), there were explicit statements in the regs requiring a GTL on ground teams. 

The question is the same as that regarding the requirements to be a GTL.  Is the lack of a specific GTL requirement due to an oversight when the 60 series replaced the 50/55 series, or was it intentional? 

I think the answer to both questions is that there was poor implementation of an intentional desire.

Mike

[Pace]

None of what you quoted or say are requirements for there to be a GTL on a ground team.  Even the 109 just reads "Signature of Team Leader" (and has for many years).

Prior to CAPR 60-3 (2001), there were explicit statements in the regs requiring a GTL on ground teams. 

The question is the same as that regarding the requirements to be a GTL.  Is the lack of a specific GTL requirement due to an oversight when the 60 series replaced the 50/55 series, or was it intentional? 

I think the answer to both questions is that there was poor implementation of an intentional desire.

Mike

Ya'know what, you're right.  I dare you to send your evaluated ground team at an Air Force evaluated SAR out in the field without a qualified and current GTL and see what happens (hint: seen it happen and it doesn't end well).

[Dragoon]

On big problem with the new system is that there is no definition of the operational differences of a GTM3 team vs a GTM 1 team.


Here are the relevant lines from 60-3 that I could find

Team training and experience must be appropriate for the mission (proficiency in DF use, ground rescue knowledge, concentrated area search procedures, missing person search, etc.).

Ground Team Members –
Level 1 should be prepared to conduct all facets of ground team operations for at least 72 hours.
Level 2 should be prepared to conduct limited ground team operations for up to 48 hours.
Ground Team Members – Level 3 should be prepared to conduct basic ground team operations for up to 24 hours.

\


Soooo, what exactly are "limited ground team ops" or "basic ground team ops"

No definition.  Effectively, you can have any team do anything for up to 24 hours, as long as you think they can handle it.



To make matters worse, GTM3s are not required to have overnight stuff like sleeping bags, and yet I can put them in the woods overnight.

The concept of 3 levels is nice, but the operational doctrine on using them sucks.

[Pace]

I was referring back to the requirements in task 0-0002 which only require certain equipment for GTM1 & 2, but not GTM3. 

Somehow I missed your post here.

I went back and reread O-0001 (at least that's the one I think you meant - if not clue me in and I'll head back into the task guide).  Even though a GTM3 is restricted to 24 hours in the field at a time, the task doesn't make a distinction between 24 and 72 hour gear for different GT levels.  You have to have both to get the task signed off.  The task even says it's a good idea to bring the 72 hour pack in case the mission is extended past 24 hours or you're sent to another mission without relief to go home and pack more supplies.

[_]

In the evaluation area of O-0001 it says:

2. Has all required items of the extended duration pack (GTM-2 & 1 Only).

As GTM3 you are not required to have 72hr gear. 

[Pace]

In the evaluation area of O-0001 it says:

2. Has all required items of the extended duration pack (GTM-2 & 1 Only).

As GTM3 you are not required to have 72hr gear. 

Ok, that explains it.  I was looking at the old version of the task guide (circa 2001).  I need to go through and make sure I have everything else updated in the folders I use.

Thanks Bayhawk.

[_]

Funny how the 2004 version isn't really an improvement over the 2001 version.  As far as I can tell they just changed the gear task according to the GTM levels and took out a couple other tasks all together.  The writing didn't improve and quite a few typos are still there. 

[sardak]

To make things more confusing, there are two versions of the 2004 task guide - 17 March and 24 May.  The SQTRs are all dated March, but match the May version.

I've attached a matrix showing the changes in tasks between 1999, 2001 and 2004.

Mike

[IceNine]

In MD wing, to become GTL you have to be GTM2 before becoming a GTL-T.  This makes sure you cover all of the navigational tasks, have at least 7 missions before you become a GTL, and means that all GTL's are capable of staying in the field for extended periods as would a GTM2.  We also have a check ride system where you have to be evaluated by a GOBD on a mission before you can be approved for GTL.  The checkride needs to have an ELT scenario, a crash site surveillance scenario, a ground search, and all the other assorted admin and organizational stuff.  If you can't do all of them you have to do it again another time.  The evaluator also can't be someone who had a major part in your training.  All of this allows for an objective evaluation of someone's skills and readiness.  It's not easy to get GTL and if you are one, you have a good idea of what you're doing.  It was a pain in the butt for me to get GTL between starting from scratch, again, with GTM3 and these procedures, but I like the system.

So how about throwing some of these documents (IC kit, GTL Checkride, GT Resource Form, etc.) 

I can't get into your wings system to see them, and I like the concept of them all

[_]

Attached is the check ride.  It's basically a check list of the tasks for GTL.  You can show someone you know each of the tasks individually easily but you need to be able to do many at once so the checklist checks that you are doing all of them.

The IC kit is basically a list of forms to have:
- CAPF 2a, 78, 79, 104, 109, 122
- MDF 103- personnel roster
- MDF 121- aircraft and vehicle registration
- memo from national on how to use WMIRS
- ORM worksheets
- Group duty officer roster.