It is CAP policy that no member shall be excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or subjected to discrimination with respect to accessibility to any CAP program or activity on the basis of race, color, sex, age, religion (creed), national origin (ancestry), sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, disability (formerly handicap), marital status, military or veteran status.
What are the rules on transgender cadets?
Hmmm.... I thought I saw a clarification on this about a year or so ago. If I remember it correctly, what CAP decided to do is to use the gender that is listed on the birth certificate and that determines the applicable regulations.
Quote from: MacGruff on December 15, 2017, 03:44:40 PMHmmm.... I thought I saw a clarification on this about a year or so ago. If I remember it correctly, what CAP decided to do is to use the gender that is listed on the birth certificate and that determines the applicable regulations.They can request accommodations but must do so in writing to National.
Quote from: stillamarine on December 15, 2017, 04:32:38 PMQuote from: MacGruff on December 15, 2017, 03:44:40 PMHmmm.... I thought I saw a clarification on this about a year or so ago. If I remember it correctly, what CAP decided to do is to use the gender that is listed on the birth certificate and that determines the applicable regulations.They can request accommodations but must do so in writing to National.Talking to a lieutenant in my squadron, and a sergeant in my squadron, I have heard that there is a possibility of doing *something*Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: stillamarine on December 15, 2017, 04:32:38 PMQuote from: MacGruff on December 15, 2017, 03:44:40 PMHmmm.... I thought I saw a clarification on this about a year or so ago. If I remember it correctly, what CAP decided to do is to use the gender that is listed on the birth certificate and that determines the applicable regulations.They can request accommodations but must do so in writing to National.Talking to a lieutenant in my squadron, and a sergeant in my squadron, I have heard that there is a possibility of doing *something*
Question: A male at birth with male genitalia says he identifies as a female. Is he going to be allowed to wear the female uniform/skirt?
Question: A male at birth with male genitalia says he identifies as a female. Is he going to be allowed to wear the female uniform/skirt?MG
9.3. Transgender Accommodations. Members may request authorization to wear the uniform corresponding to their gender identity. A letter, including medical documentation that the individual is a transgender person, is required. Members submit their requests in writing through the chain of command to CAP/DP. For help with policy questions, contact CAP/DP.
6. Unacceptable Reasons for Denying an Accommodation While CAP is not always able to approve accommodation requests, the non ‐ discrimination policy prohibits local leaders from denying those requests for the wrong reasons. Some examples of improper reasons for denying requests include: 6.1. Inconvenience to staff or other participants; time ‐ consuming; “we’ve always done it this way.” By definition, every request for an accommodation is a request to alter the usual way of doing business in some manner, and as such, every accommodation imposes at least some inconvenience or demands extra time and effort from local leaders or the overall group. Inconvenience on its own is not sufficient reason for denying a request. In adopting a nondiscrimination policy, CAP recognizes that it sometimes will need to devote extra time, attention, and resources to individuals protected by that policy. 6.2. Personal bias; desire not to associate with the member because of his or her special need. If a member prefers not to associate with a fellow member because of the member having a special need that is protected by the non ‐ discrimination policy, the remedy is for the displeased member to choose CAPP 1 ‐ 10 Special Needs 1 September 2017 6 to stay home. Local leaders cannot exclude a member from participation on the grounds that someone or even a majority of the group prefers that a person not participate. 6.3. Detracts from esprit de corps or desire for a standardized appearance. In the cadet environment especially, military ‐ style standardization of appearance is an ideal. But it is not appropriate for local leaders to cite a negative impact upon standardized appearance as grounds for denying participation. For example, a cadet who uses a wheelchair cannot be denied participation in a parade on the grounds that the wheelchair detracts from the formation’s appearance. On its surface, a rule of “every partici ‐ pant must keep in step” sounds neutral and fair, but in effect, it creates a disparate impact, unfairly limiting the participation of the cadet solely on the grounds of her disability. 6.4 Moral Objections or Religious Beliefs. Denying an accommodation must be based on the effect such an accommodation will have on CAP resources, or on CAP’s missions, activities, or operations. Denying an accommodation purely because one or more persons are morally against it is insufficient. For instance, refusing to accommodate a homosexual person’s request simply because other members have a moral objection to homosexuality, would not be permitted.
A more important issue to cadets, one which has been ignored so far, is what is NHQ going to do about PT?
a gender-neutral CPFT plan could be implemented, where everyone would be held to the same standards, while still being fair for both males and females alike.
This whole issue of transgenderism is going to open up a Pandora's box of issues that are going to have to be dealt with. I see lawsuits a plenty in the future. The issue of PT that Eclipse brings up is a valid one and just one of many that will arise.MG
Quote from: hamburgee on December 29, 2017, 02:39:37 AMa gender-neutral CPFT plan could be implemented, where everyone would be held to the same standards, while still being fair for both males and females alike.I don't frankly know why CAP doesn't have this already - one less argument."Equal" is "equal".
As far as I know, the military enforces it according to one's preferred gender.
Quote from: hamburgee on December 29, 2017, 02:39:37 AMAs far as I know, the military enforces it according to one's preferred gender.No they don't there is a lengthy process involved, a mil member can't just wake up the next morning or on the spur of the moment decide they are different gender. And should a member feel they are transgender simply saying they are or feeling they are does not allow them any entitlements.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 29, 2017, 02:43:25 AMQuote from: hamburgee on December 29, 2017, 02:39:37 AMa gender-neutral CPFT plan could be implemented, where everyone would be held to the same standards, while still being fair for both males and females alike.I don't frankly know why CAP doesn't have this already - one less argument."Equal" is "equal".So do you set the standard at the current level for males, or do you lower the standards for all, to be at what females do now? Or do you just split the difference, which makes it easier for those who are born male, but harder for those who were born female?Or just let everyone get by with a 30 minute mile run/walk? LOLOLNo matter what ... standards will be lower.Recruiting may benefit from this. But few will qualify to wear blues ever again.
So do you set the standard at the current level for males, or do you lower the standards for all, to be at what females do now? Or do you just split the difference, which makes it easier for those who are born male, but harder for those who were born female?
And with the new PT program, the differences are even less noticeable, except for PACER, which nearly everyone hates anyway.
I'm aware of the numbers. Are you telling me that the difference between an 8:04 mile (male) and 9:22 mile (female) is significantly different,
Currently I'm struggling to bring down a 9:45 mile to a 9:34. It's eleven seconds. It's not a fast mile, but I'm struggling. I have some understanding of the difference between and 8 minute and a 9 minute mile, because while I can sometimes get 9 to 9:15 and it feels the same, it's not consistent, and getting below 9 minutes will be challenging (hopefully attainable). I have no idea if I will be able to get below 7:30 in a year or two when I attempt Spaatz. The lower the times are, the greater the difficulty in shaving off time. I get that. (translatable to other physical activities as well, of course)
Quote from: etodd on December 29, 2017, 03:02:53 AMQuote from: Eclipse on December 29, 2017, 02:43:25 AMQuote from: hamburgee on December 29, 2017, 02:39:37 AMa gender-neutral CPFT plan could be implemented, where everyone would be held to the same standards, while still being fair for both males and females alike.I don't frankly know why CAP doesn't have this already - one less argument."Equal" is "equal".So do you set the standard at the current level for males, or do you lower the standards for all, to be at what females do now? Or do you just split the difference, which makes it easier for those who are born male, but harder for those who were born female?Or just let everyone get by with a 30 minute mile run/walk? LOLOLNo matter what ... standards will be lower.Recruiting may benefit from this. But few will qualify to wear blues ever again. Why would standards be lower? As a mother of a female cadet, stop assuming girls can’t run, do push ups etc. Push females to reach their peek physical abilities, and then push them further. I would love to see the PT standards for females changed to a healthier standard.
Quote from: MrsRoe on December 29, 2017, 06:56:33 PMQuote from: etodd on December 29, 2017, 03:02:53 AMQuote from: Eclipse on December 29, 2017, 02:43:25 AMQuote from: hamburgee on December 29, 2017, 02:39:37 AMa gender-neutral CPFT plan could be implemented, where everyone would be held to the same standards, while still being fair for both males and females alike.I don't frankly know why CAP doesn't have this already - one less argument."Equal" is "equal".So do you set the standard at the current level for males, or do you lower the standards for all, to be at what females do now? Or do you just split the difference, which makes it easier for those who are born male, but harder for those who were born female?Or just let everyone get by with a 30 minute mile run/walk? LOLOLNo matter what ... standards will be lower.Recruiting may benefit from this. But few will qualify to wear blues ever again. Why would standards be lower? As a mother of a female cadet, stop assuming girls can’t run, do push ups etc. Push females to reach their peek physical abilities, and then push them further. I would love to see the PT standards for females changed to a healthier standard. Great! So there is one vote to move the female standards, along with all transgenders, to the higher standards traditional of males, and just have one set of requirements. I'll second that motion. Shall we vote and let Hdqs know?
Quote from: Cadetter on December 29, 2017, 06:12:19 AMCurrently I'm struggling to bring down a 9:45 mile to a 9:34. It's eleven seconds. It's not a fast mile, but I'm struggling. I have some understanding of the difference between and 8 minute and a 9 minute mile, because while I can sometimes get 9 to 9:15 and it feels the same, it's not consistent, and getting below 9 minutes will be challenging (hopefully attainable). I have no idea if I will be able to get below 7:30 in a year or two when I attempt Spaatz. The lower the times are, the greater the difficulty in shaving off time. I get that. (translatable to other physical activities as well, of course)Run faster. There are people that can run 5:15 miles.
Quote from: etodd on December 29, 2017, 07:16:18 PMQuote from: MrsRoe on December 29, 2017, 06:56:33 PMQuote from: etodd on December 29, 2017, 03:02:53 AMQuote from: Eclipse on December 29, 2017, 02:43:25 AMQuote from: hamburgee on December 29, 2017, 02:39:37 AMa gender-neutral CPFT plan could be implemented, where everyone would be held to the same standards, while still being fair for both males and females alike.I don't frankly know why CAP doesn't have this already - one less argument."Equal" is "equal".So do you set the standard at the current level for males, or do you lower the standards for all, to be at what females do now? Or do you just split the difference, which makes it easier for those who are born male, but harder for those who were born female?Or just let everyone get by with a 30 minute mile run/walk? LOLOLNo matter what ... standards will be lower.Recruiting may benefit from this. But few will qualify to wear blues ever again. Why would standards be lower? As a mother of a female cadet, stop assuming girls can’t run, do push ups etc. Push females to reach their peek physical abilities, and then push them further. I would love to see the PT standards for females changed to a healthier standard. Great! So there is one vote to move the female standards, along with all transgenders, to the higher standards traditional of males, and just have one set of requirements. I'll second that motion. Shall we vote and let Hdqs know? Dooooo it lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Awesome! Under these delightful standards, I get to pass sit&reach with barely even stretching, and with the curl-ups and sit-and-reach, who even needs to pass push-ups? No one except Spaatz candidates need get below an 8-minute mile, too.
To develop in cadets a habit of regular exercise.
Currently I'm struggling to bring down a 9:45 mile to a 9:34. It's eleven seconds. It's not a fast mile, but I'm struggling.
Quote from: Cadetter on December 29, 2017, 06:12:19 AMCurrently I'm struggling to bring down a 9:45 mile to a 9:34. It's eleven seconds. It's not a fast mile, but I'm struggling. Get your butt out there and start some serious running. I was running an 8 minute mile as a 40 yo (12 minute mile and a half) when I retired from the Navy.[ETA] And 80 sit-ups in two minutes.
At least your time was respectable I outrun all but one of the males that don't pass PT, and I've never gotten below 9 minutes.
So many of today's kids. Dreaming of making a living with no physical exertion.
Quote from: etodd on December 30, 2017, 09:45:09 PMSo many of today's kids. Dreaming of making a living with no physical exertion.There's millions of people with "regular" jobs that never do anything more then lift a coffee cup.Walk to attached garage, drive through Dunkin, drive to work, walk to desk.Rinse. Repeat.This is quite literally the American Way.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 30, 2017, 09:59:22 PMQuote from: etodd on December 30, 2017, 09:45:09 PMSo many of today's kids. Dreaming of making a living with no physical exertion.There's millions of people with "regular" jobs that never do anything more then lift a coffee cup.Walk to attached garage, drive through Dunkin, drive to work, walk to desk.Rinse. Repeat.This is quite literally the American Way.Exactly my point. Something to consider in CAP. Whether one can opt out of PT if the military isn't their goal, but cyber or math is.
Quote from: etodd on December 30, 2017, 11:36:18 PMQuote from: Eclipse on December 30, 2017, 09:59:22 PMQuote from: etodd on December 30, 2017, 09:45:09 PMSo many of today's kids. Dreaming of making a living with no physical exertion.There's millions of people with "regular" jobs that never do anything more then lift a coffee cup.Walk to attached garage, drive through Dunkin, drive to work, walk to desk.Rinse. Repeat.This is quite literally the American Way.Exactly my point. Something to consider in CAP. Whether one can opt out of PT if the military isn't their goal, but cyber or math is.The CAP Cadet Program is a paramilitary-based organization, just as AFJROTC is. They both have a curriculum in STEM. They both have a curriculum in physical fitness. They both have a curriculum in drill. An alternative organization may exist for those that want the Cyber side without the physical exertion. This is a military-structured program. Fitness standards, uniform standards, progression, discipline---all of it---that's this program. It's not a science club or hangout spot.
Quote from: Cadetter on December 30, 2017, 05:53:41 AMAt least your time was respectable I outrun all but one of the males that don't pass PT, and I've never gotten below 9 minutes.He had a reason to be able to run like that. He was in the Navy and needed to pass his physical fitness test!
The CAP Cadet Program is a paramilitary-based organization, just as AFJROTC is. They both have a curriculum in STEM. They both have a curriculum in physical fitness. They both have a curriculum in drill.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 31, 2017, 02:05:38 AMThe CAP Cadet Program is a paramilitary-based organization, just as AFJROTC is. They both have a curriculum in STEM. They both have a curriculum in physical fitness. They both have a curriculum in drill. Yes. When it comes to attracting potential Cadets, can we compete well with AFJROTC? Are the benefits when it comes to college and or entering the military equal? (I really have no idea) Just wondering if the AF needs to change anything so that we can be competitive with AFJROTC when it comes to recruitment?
I spent a great deal of yesterday working on a training outline, and in so doing, decided to do some research on AFJROTC. I was very surprised at virtually how mirrored most cadet units in CAP are to JROTC units. I see a majority of drill, PT, Color Guard (yes, also drill), and some STEM. It seems like the curriculum also includes a bit of land navigation/orienteering, which is often the extent of cadets' exposure to ES; though, there are some additional opportunities for CAP cadets that JROTC cadets do not seem to have access to.
CAP does not, "compete" with JROTC, different goals, funding, and reasons for joining.In my experience if is just as uneven, or worse in some cases, then CAP because many schoolsallow it as either an elective, or in place of gym, and kids take it as seriously as they do one of those classes.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2017, 06:00:04 PMCAP does not, "compete" with JROTC, different goals, funding, and reasons for joining.In my experience if is just as uneven, or worse in some cases, then CAP because many schoolsallow it as either an elective, or in place of gym, and kids take it as seriously as they do one of those classes.Well I've been a senior member for over 2 years now and the difference is still murky and nebulous as can be to me. If some kid asks me which is better if he has military goals, I don't have a clue ... so we can be assured the general public out there doesn't know either.
How does a CAP Cadet entering college and going AFROTC ... compare to a AFJROTC high schooler entering college and going AFROTC?
Quote from: deepblue1947 on December 29, 2017, 01:36:18 AMThis whole issue of transgenderism is going to open up a Pandora's box of issues that are going to have to be dealt with. I see lawsuits a plenty in the future. The issue of PT that Eclipse brings up is a valid one and just one of many that will arise.MGCare to provide evidence for said claim? Or why your opinion has any validity? Or provide examples of the “lawsuits a plenty”?
Those who feel this is immoral i.e., sinful, will not try to change these programs, we’ll just leave;
Just like the active military (which has confiscated bibles and dictated to chaplains what parts of the Bible they can’t speak on (which are several regarding this issue), mbrship will drop.
Btw, the AMA reports that over 70 % of the transgendered revert to their birth identity within 10 years of their conversation.
So, I envision the organization just dying (I don’t wish for that but I see it coming),
If Kelly shows up to join and looks like and says she is a girl, I dont think anyone is going to argue and demand she come into the office and prove it.
Quote from: sarmed1 on January 06, 2018, 08:12:58 PMIf Kelly shows up to join and looks like and says she is a girl, I dont think anyone is going to argue and demand she come into the office and prove it. The potential cadet's membership documents have to match what they represent.The world doesn't have to know, but a number of key people in the unit do.Also, no one is quitting CAP over this.No.One.
I knew that when I typed it.That's not to say this situation doesn't pose potentially significant issues for some units, and activities, but if it causes you angst in a CAP context, enough that would have you actually quit, there's the door, you must have missed the Level 1 lessons and the EO and Non-D information.Meanwhile, the adults in the room will take care of things.
No lawsuits, just lost mbrship. Call us narrow minded, but several families I recruited fm left the program, same with scouting (yes, these where church families). Those who feel this is immoral i.e., sinful, will not try to change these programs, we’ll just leave; something that is going on. Just like the active military (which has confiscated bibles and dictated to chaplains what parts of the Bible they can’t speak on (which are several regarding this issue), mbrship will drop. No harm, no foul. No one will try to force their views on anyone, nor should they. Just leave or don’t join, which is now happening. No need for lawsuits since the military allows it.Btw, the AMA reports that over 70 % of the transgendered revert to their birth identity within 10 years of their conversation. Only time and common sense will straighten this out. Ignoring this issue and pretend there is no issue will see in time will effect our cadet and senior mbrship. Already the scouts have competing organizations but CAP can’t have competing organizations. So, I envision the organization just dying (I don’t wish for that but I see it coming),
No lawsuits, just lost mbrship.
Quote from: sarmed1 on January 06, 2018, 08:12:58 PMIf Kelly shows up to join and looks like and says she is a girl, I dont think anyone is going to argue and demand she come into the office and prove it. The potential cadet's membership documents have to match what they represent.The world doesn't have to know, but a number of key people in the unit do....
School ID, School report card (column B) & Column C Social Security Card. Neither of which may or have to have the gender on it.