SAR is not a public service

[LSThiker]

I came upon this the other day and thought to share it.  It's an interesting read:

http://www.outsideonline.com/1986496/search-and-rescue-public-service-not-exactly?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tweet

[Spaceman3750]

I agree with the sentiment that if you do something truly dumb, you should be responsible for the state saving you from your own negligence. However, I also agree with NASAR's statement that it can delay calls for help, which ultimately could cost lives. The other problem is that in the traditional system by which the government alleges you were dumb (the court/criminal justice system), they have to prove you were dumb to a jury of your peers. In this case, someone behind a desk gets to decide you were dumb and send you a bill, and it's up to you (and your wallet) to pursue the matter in courts and prove that you weren't.

TL;DR - On paper it's nice but in reality it gets muddy.

This is not just something in SAR. Fire departments seem to be starting to charge for things that were once considered a service provided by taxes. For example, one municipality near me is now charging for vehicle extrications if the victim is not a resident. The reason (I believe) is that they have a lot of transient/commuter traffic and they were dumping a bunch of money into rescuing "not their people".

[Eclipse]

This is not just something in SAR. Fire departments seem to be starting to charge for things that were once considered a service provided by taxes.

Most ambulance services have been charging for transport and ALS for years.  It's usually on the bill to the insurance company.

The state of Nevada tried to charge the Fossett's for his search, as I recall they only backed down after public outcry.

I have no problem with this whatsoever, especially when you're talking about rich guys taking expensive toys into places people don't live,
and then expecting me to pay to come find them.

Tax bases are not infinite pools, and they are shrinking every year.  The extraction thing is more gray to me, since that raises the
issue of reciprocal response agreements between jurisdictions, etc., but it's also a valid point - someone has to pay for all that
overtime or extra manpower.  Am I supposed to flush the toilet more because an expressway happens to run through my town
and my FD & PD have to respond for no other reason then proximity?  Where's the reciprocation there?
Do we get a piece of the tollbooths to offset?

This issues also bubbles volunteer forces up to the top, so win/win there, too.

[Spaceman3750]

This is not just something in SAR. Fire departments seem to be starting to charge for things that were once considered a service provided by taxes.

Most ambulance services have been charging for transport and ALS for years.  It's usually on the bill to the insurance company.

Most private companies. Many fire department rescue squads (either volunteer or professional) still transport free I believe, at least around here.

especially when you're talking about rich guys taking expensive toys into places people don't live

I guess people have to avoid visiting places outside of the urban jungle going forward. </snark>

As a taxpayer, I have no problem paying to go look for people who had genuine bad luck, whether they're in the city or in a national forest. We are already closed-minded as a society, I don't want to be discouraging people from going out and seeing the world around them. I consider this to be promoting the general welfare, personally. But I do think that you should do it responsibly - I have less of an issue charging the guy who decides to hike up Mt. Rainier when there's a snowstorm coming in two hours. That's just stupid.

[NIN]

I hike the White Mountains in New Hampshire. It's literally no joke,  although people from out west seem to think that because they're not as high they're not a factor.  This is the same attitude I see on the trail when I'm on my way down from an 8 mile circuit and I see people headed up in jeans and tshirts, 16oz water bottle in hand and nothing more than a cell phone to save them from disaster.  No gear,  shelter,  outerwear,  etc.

I'm carrying gear to get me and my buddies off the mountain in the event most foreseeable circumstances, or to shelter and stay on the mountain and not die.

People in cotton clothing carrying nothing?  They're a turned ankle from a Blackhawk ride.

[JeffDG]

although people from out west seem to think that because they're not as high they're not a factor. 

If it has trees all the way to the top, it's a hill, not a mountain.  Mountains have tree lines.

[LSThiker]

I see people headed up in jeans and tshirts, 16oz water bottle in hand and nothing more than a cell phone to save them from disaster.  No gear,  shelter,  outerwear,  etc.

Cotton kills.

I see this quite often as well.  On the flip side, I have seen people so loaded with gear that they struggle moving. 

Unfortunately, even the "prepared" can be wrongly "prepared".  During my last backpacking trip, I ran into a boy scout troop while night hiking.  All had white lights and were shining them in my eyes.  I was tempted to pull the scout leader aside and give him my 2 cents worth and was half tempted to join the BSA so at least some kids are taught properly. 

I always hate it when I hear "oh I have my phone as a compass".

[NIN]

although people from out west seem to think that because they're not as high they're not a factor. 

If it has trees all the way to the top, it's a hill, not a mountain.  Mountains have tree lines.

I'll be sure to let the US Geological Survey know of that distinction. Apparently they weren't looking close enough when they named some of our mountains.

We have tree lines here. I've spent plenty of time above them

[LSThiker]

although people from out west seem to think that because they're not as high they're not a factor. 

If it has trees all the way to the top, it's a hill, not a mountain.  Mountains have tree lines.

I'll be sure to let the US Geological Survey know of that distinction. Apparently they weren't looking close enough when they named some of our mountains.

We have tree lines here. I've spent plenty of time above them

The US and British used to have "official" definitions.  The British abandoned theirs in the 1920s and the US in the 1970s.  It was once stated that a mountain is a geological feature over 1,000 ft of local relief.  Currently, the USGS has no technical definition for mountain vs hill vs mount.  Considering that the US officially named the White Mountains the White Mountains in 1890 from a local designation from 1820s. 

[Eclipse]

I always hate it when I hear "oh I have my phone as a compass".

Seriously.  Goobers.

(I use my smartwatch).

[stillamarine]

This is not just something in SAR. Fire departments seem to be starting to charge for things that were once considered a service provided by taxes.

Most ambulance services have been charging for transport and ALS for years.  It's usually on the bill to the insurance company.

Most private companies. Many fire department rescue squads (either volunteer or professional) still transport free I believe, at least around here.

especially when you're talking about rich guys taking expensive toys into places people don't live

I guess people have to avoid visiting places outside of the urban jungle going forward. </snark>

As a taxpayer, I have no problem paying to go look for people who had genuine bad luck, whether they're in the city or in a national forest. We are already closed-minded as a society, I don't want to be discouraging people from going out and seeing the world around them. I consider this to be promoting the general welfare, personally. But I do think that you should do it responsibly - I have less of an issue charging the guy who decides to hike up Mt. Rainier when there's a snowstorm coming in two hours. That's just stupid.

Every fire department I have been involved with as a FF/EMT charged for EMS runs. Vol and paid. My city's FD charges for EMS runs. Hell I got a bill when they transported me after my police car was T-boned running to a robbery in progress with one shot call.

[EMT-83]

I really have no problem with billing the idiot who goes rappelling with a clothesline, or decides to go hiking at dusk without a flashlight or a clue.

Billing someone for cutting them out of a wreck just doesn't seem right to me.

We've been charging for false alarms for years, which hasn't reduced the number of alarms, but does recover some of the costs incurred. We also bill for hazmat response, and insurance companies pay willingly.

[Holding Pattern]

I always hate it when I hear "oh I have my phone as a compass".

Seriously.  Goobers.

(I use my smartwatch).

:clap:

[LSThiker]

I always hate it when I hear "oh I have my phone as a compass".

Seriously.  Goobers.

(I use my smartwatch).

Yup goobers. Especially Corey Robertson and Analia Oliva, whom went on a hike in the White Mountains back in 2012. They only had a cellphone because that was what they believed they needed. Cellphone died and were only found because another person got lost and the rescue crew happened to wander into them. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

I always hate it when I hear "oh I have my phone as a compass".

Seriously.  Goobers.

(I use my smartwatch).

Yup goobers. Especially Corey Robertson and Analia Oliva, whom went on a hike in the White Mountains back in 2012. They only had a cellphone because that was what they believed they needed. Cellphone died and were only found because another person got lost and the rescue crew happened to wander into them.

Solar charger, brah!

[Eclipse]

Back to the topic, a few years ago we had that lost family where the son decided he would get them out and they were hiding from
the helos and rescue crews.

They found their way eventually, walked out of the woods into the search ICP area and drove off.

"They" didn't' ask to be rescued, but clearly someone reported them missing, so who pays for in that case?

[NIN]

Yup goobers. Especially Corey Robertson and Analia Oliva, whom went on a hike in the White Mountains back in 2012. They only had a cellphone because that was what they believed they needed. Cellphone died and were only found because another person got lost and the rescue crew happened to wander into them.

precisely.

"I got my phone."

I'm not one of those ultra-light hikers (gosh no). In my ruck I have a first aid kit and enough gear to either spend a night on the mountain in the expected weather, or to get me off the mountain (slowly) in the expected weather. 

Goretex jacket & pants, extra socks, headlamp (even when I start on the trail at 0700), paper map, compass, GPS, spare batteries, cell phone with the Trimble map program (and the downloaded maps for the area I'm in), spare battery for my phone, 100oz of water, food, signaling devices, spare under layers, hiking pole, etc.  In the spring and fall, microspikes and/or snowshoes, winter hat, gloves/mittens, scarf, another set of underlayers and socks...

Is that a lot of stuff? Sure is.

Am I going to require SAR?  Hopefully not. And if I do, it will be because I fell off an enscarpment and busted myself all up, not because I was woefully under prepared.

BTW, Mt Lafayette, Robertson and Oliva's hike, is on my list for this weekend.


Thats me and Pylon on Mt Pierce in November 2012.

[LSThiker]

Solar charger, brah!

Green tunnel.

They work in places such as the PCT, JMT, and the CDT (portions of them at least) really well.  When you are white blazing through the green tunnel, solar chargers are not that great. 

Plus, for some hikers, they are heavy.  Yes, a solar charge of 3 oz to 18 oz is considered heavy.  When I need to make a decision between a solar charger and my 0.9oz compass, I will choose the compass over the charger due to weight, functionality, and other factors.  The mind of serious hikers (both long distance and short) is about weight of their gear against safety.  How can I carry the lightest gear without sacrificing safety?  When I get to my location, my cell phone is mailed back home or left in my car (depending on the circumstances of my hike).   

"They" didn't' ask to be rescued, but clearly someone reported them missing, so who pays for in that case?

I would say treat it the same way when a bystander calls an ambulance and the patient declines it.  It is a loss for the company, sure but the person reporting them missing is not at fault (assuming it is done in good conscience). 

[Live2Learn]

"They" didn't' ask to be rescued, but clearly someone reported them missing, so who pays for in that case?

I would say treat it the same way when a bystander calls an ambulance and the patient declines it.  It is a loss for the company, sure but the person reporting them missing is not at fault (assuming it is done in good conscience).

Case in point:  I came home last summer to find a teenager sprawled in the alley behind my house.  Next to him was a skate board.  He was breathing, but unresponsive.  His in-place posture suggested a violent landing.   I called 911.  After awhile a team of medics showed up in a firetruck.  It turns out the kid was doing 'tricks' on his board, flipped, and landed on his head.  Knocked him cold.  As he came to and moved from confusion to lucidity he refused help.  I believe Good Samaritan laws have a good purpose that serves us all.  Absent an injured person's ability to ask for help, what would a reasonable person do?  Walk away and let 'em deal with a (potentially) busted neck and/or concussion?  Or???  If it was my son, I'd want (demand) the Good Samaritan who makes a precautionary call get a pass on fees and bills.  Likely consequences of the alternative are pretty scary.

[Holding Pattern]

There are a lot of things for me to complain about when it comes to how my tax dollars are spent by the government.

Emergency Response is not one of those areas I complain about.